Thief Haste

[Konie]

i have noticed that with haste% cap of 70% (all songs spells and 25% cap from equipment), a thf/nin dueling Blau/misericorde +1 wold have a delay of 106.8, this isnt counting Duel Weild 2 or suppanmomimi, but 106.8 delay is like... well with tripple attacks and all else said, you would look like your using hundred fists sometimes :3

my formula is delay - delay x .7 (70% as a decimal)

im probly wrong but w/e im sharing the contents of my brain XD

[Lmnop]

Re: Thief Haste

no, you're probably right but I'm not gonna check it. I was doing some math recently with my friend's BLU. We were talking theoretically about when he gets Homam (it's a "When" for him, not "if") and completes his haste build. With full buffs, /nin and with Suppa, he would be swinging at an equivalent delay of a weapon with like 89 delay. Of course that's actually 2 swings every 188 but the DPS comparison is the same as swinging once that insanely fast. Ninjas take insane to a whole new level with their high levels of DW traits.

Something worth keeping in mind is that you wouldn't actually "have a delay of" 107. You would be swinging at that effective delay. Meaning you're still getting normal 300+ delay worth of TP (better for you).

[Tokitoki]

Re: Thief Haste

Yes it would be 106.8 delay. It is a pretty low delay, especially for daggers, but if you throw in a Sirocco Kukri you'd be even less.

An easier way to look at the formula is like this:

(Delay + Delay)*(1-%haste in decimal form)= new delay.
so it's: 356*.3=106.8 delay

[Zempten]

Re: Thief Haste

While were on this topic, can someone tell me what's a good Haste percentage to achieve during exp PT?

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Thief Haste

OOoOooo I wanna know this stuff too.... someone share!

[Kaickul]

Re: Thief Haste

While were on this topic, can someone tell me what's a good Haste percentage to achieve during exp PT?

I dont think there is an 'ideal percentage' because it depends on your setup. The high the delay of your weapon then obviously the more haste you want to stack on. With lower delay weapons (ideally BD and SC) you can balance out a lot of haste with ACC and ATT gear. Homam is ultimately what you are aiming for with haste/acc in terms of setup. The big thing to note is... the higher the delay of your weapons the less Triple Attacks you will get.

There are instances where I have to give up some Haste gear for more ACC. Also stacking on a bunch of haste gear can kill your DoT because your ATT is so low.

With Homam gear, Swift Belt, BD, and SC I get regular complaints about damage spam.

[Zempten]

Re: Thief Haste

Currently I'm using BD and Mis +1. My haste options atm are only Walhara and Bravo's Sublingar.

I was under the impression that we wanted to achieve a percentage of haste equivilent to the spell, Haste, and keep at atk close to 400+. Am I wrong?

[Lmnop]

Re: Thief Haste

there's never a static number to be achieved. Everything's relative to everything else. However, given your delay numbers, and assuming a 60 second fight, we can find points wherein haste does and does not benefit you. Here's some random math that you don't have to pay attention to:

mis+1: 28/178
bd: 33/178

356 +20% DW=

284.8 delay
4.75 seconds/round
12.631578947368421052631578947368 rounds/minute.

EDIT:
ZOMG! I think I figured the %s wrong. I figured all of these as sum of base delays and then multiplied that by haste% + DW%.
I think I need to figure the dual wield delay first (284.8) and multiple that by the haste%. This would make my later numbers a bit more sane. I'm leaving these figures here so you can see a rough estimate of how it plays out (the lower the %, the less difference comes from the 2 numbers. Since I'm lazy and just spent 15-20 minutes on this, I'm not figuring the (maybe) correct figures right now. Enjoy some inaccuracy.

Math is probably wrong!
5% haste:
delay equivalent 267
4.45 seconds/round
13.483146067415730337078651685393 rounds/minute.

7% haste:
delay equivalent 259.88
4.3313 seconds/round
13.852547329536709250423272279515 rounds/minute.
(no change)

8% haste:
delay equivalent 256.32
4.272 seconds/round
14.044943820224719101123595505618 rounds/minute.

15% haste (spell):
delay equivalent 231.4
3.8566666666666666666666666666667 seconds/round
15.557476231633535004321521175456 rounds/minute.

55% haste (spell, double march, 3x homam + turban + rap harness + swift belt [20% in gear]):
delay equivalent 89
1.4833333333333333333333333333333 seconds/round
40.449438202247191011235955056189 rounds/minute.

Note that I'm too lazy to even truncate my decimals. Though admittedly, part of the reason I left them is because I'm not sure at which stage they'd be rounded. Not that it'd make much of a difference. we're talking thousandths of seconds lost. If you want, I can edit this post later to do some truncation.

More things to note: all of these figures assume dual wielding of said weapon combo with a Suppa at your disposal. If you do not have said earring, well just figure yourself as 5% lower haste but see below.

Notice that I put "delay equivalent" in all of those haste sections. It's important that you understand that I'm using Delay values as a reference to how many times you're swinging/second and how you'd equate to say... a war/nin. But it's not actually lowering your tp and you are, indeed, getting normal tp gain. In the extreme (55%) case, you're getting 55% extra tp/minute just from swinging faster but gaining same tp.

-------

Onto the numbers themselves, you see that 5% gets you an extra swing in 60 seconds time, but 7% performs identical to 5%. It's of course also important to realize that your fights may indeed go up to 70 seconds. I don't feel like looking at my calculator anymore, but I'm quite sure that given even 5 more seconds, that extra 2% haste from the harness will show an extra swing over 5%. Back to the 60 second environment, you see that 8% is enough to get another hit. From here, I jumped around some.

Just having the Haste spell gets you 6 extra attacks/minute (3 attack rounds). That's potentially 30% tp/minute.

Fully buffed, we see an insane result. Please, feel free to check my math. I'd rather be proven wrong so I can edit my post instead of let it sit here for years, giving people false info.

The idea of swinging 80 times in a fight seems a bit absurd. If you could do this with 100% accuracy, and get 5% tp/swing. Then you'd theoretically have 100% tp every 15 seconds. However, you have 85-95% accuracy, slowing you down to ... I dunno, every 18 seconds? This math has gotta be wrong. That's insane.

This is the equivalent DPS to someone single-wield swinging once every 45 delay which is .75 seconds.

While typing this out, I realized it'd be fun to toss in a wyvern earring for 60% haste (melee caps @70%ish), though you'd be giving up 20% delay reduction from /nin. It'd also be fun to lower the daggers to 150/150 delay (sirocco/hornetneedle, for argument's sake) just to see how low we can go. I have to wonder if when you get so high up in delay reduction amounts, if even Blitz Ring (1% haste) would give tangible benefits. Though at that point it'd go unnoticed just because no one cares if you're swinging 80 times or 82.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Thief Haste

With the FPS of the game, can you see yourself swing 80 times in 20 seconds? lol

If, not, it would look like your tp bar going up drastically, while doing hundred fists.....

that's killer.................. w

[Zempten]

Re: Thief Haste

Lmnop
That's pretty interesting. How does Triple Attack and Haste work?

[Lmnop]

Re: Thief Haste

pretty simple... the more haste you have, the more chances you have for 3A to activate. If you swing 20 times/minute w/out haste then you average 1 Triple Attack every minute (5% rate). If you swing 40 times/minute, then you'd average 2 triple attacks/minute (5% of 40).

I've been talking to Armando about devising a test to see if I can find out how DW and Haste work together. I'm leaning more towards the route of Dual Wield to find new delay, and use that delay to figure Haste. That way makes more sense and makes numbers that are slightly reasonable. Like 60 swings/minute instead of 80 >.>

[Zempten]

Re: Thief Haste

Well what I'm curious if there is a cap.

Let's say we take Hundred Fist, as far as we know . . that's the fastest you can swing in the game for 30 seconds. So is the limitations based on time itself? or is it based on how much your screen can show?

I'm still not sure how I should work on my Haste/TP gear setup. Every THF I talk to tells me Homan and I'm like "That's too far away". So I looked at alternate Haste and I've only come across Walhara Turban, Bravo's Sublingar/the other one that has STR and 1% extra Haste, and then Swift Belt. Is that good enough?

[Armando]

Re: Thief Haste

Nny's tests have shown that the cap on how much you can reduce your weapon's original Delay is 70%. I believe this takes Dual Wield into account. How well the animations can keep up with what's going on is never a limiting factor, though; there are videos of MNKs using Kraken Clubs with Hundred Fists, and the animations continue even after the mob dies, since they're so far behind. If the animations limited us, then something like that wouldn't happen.

[Lmnop]

Re: Thief Haste

thought he did those tests with a Rune Chopper. I'm too lazy to look into it.