THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

[Lmnop]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Well, Hot Shot/Flaming Arrow, Punch, and Tachi: Kagero can also open Fusion.
In my static party, the PLD (me) starts off Fusion with Red Lotus Blade and let the Red Mage do his weapon-switch-blink routine of spelling casting. Many low level NIN's use the Sword + Katana combination, so they can open Fusion as well.
There are plenty of options for opening Fusion. >_>

Tachi: Kagero: skill level 100 (learned at 33 Samurai). Summoners: dead. Rangers: near dead. When they were alive, you could never convince one to consider SCing with a MNK. Not to mention that the mobs favored by mnk and those favored by rng will always differ. Kagero is in prime time to make Fusion in Garlaige Citadel, but I'd rather be doing Enpi. However, I actually made a GC party in this level range just so I could do Kagero -> Combo Fusion and used my meditate WS to unleash Enpi when I could.

That time when I was the one who made a concious effort to sac my own Enpi for Fusion is the only time in over 3 years of this game that I've ever seen a MNK close Fusion. Nin really has no reason to use sword after the dunes, as far as I can tell. plus, NINs get slow tp. Blade: Teki (or is it :To?) opens Fragmentation but I had a Nin who refused to open it for my SA Sturmwind back in the day because she was only doing like 9 dmg with it. Which meant less hate for her and more hate for me. >.<

And Ewww I can't believe you just suggested poor Malacite Google Circle Jerk. Whatever you do please don't type that into google.

And hey - symmetrical docking. don't worry it's work safe.


Thf/war and thf/nin post 40: I'd rather not get too much into it since thf/nins don't like being told they're weak but... honestly if you want to DD, you want Berserk. There is no offhand dagger that can compete with it. Note that I think end-game when you can get 20% delay reduction via Dual Wield, that it's worth looking into. But even then, it's shit if you're just another burst damage THF. If you're not paying attention to your per-swing damage, you're not playing to your fullest.

As of 40+, I think that a thf/mnk with Raging Fists could be exciting (you said it was like 4-700 damage?) but I also think the low acc could really hurt. VB should land 250-500 in those levels (mob pending, of course) which is close enough that the consistency of the attacks is nice. I never really thought about it though... I suppose even loaded up on acc gear HtH, you could still hit as decently as a THF does with a dagger. I keep wanting to say "your standard melee will suffer" but that's kinda part of the thf job description (especially fighting beetles and antica as everyone does through the 40s).


P.S. haha I accidentally put /docking in my tag instead of /url.

[Vyuru]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Thf/war and thf/nin post 40: I'd rather not get too much into it since thf/nins don't like being told they're weak but... honestly if you want to DD, you want Berserk.

Agreed, /nin let's you grab some nice +stat daggers/swords, but 99% of the time a thf will be eating sushi, and against some mobs I'll see thiefs hitting for alot of 0s, beetles for instance, either in Garliage or Altepa, and the thf's TP gain will suffer for it. /war on the other hand at least nets you Berserk, which with your sushi eating should be a very nice combination.

I have a thfy friend who tried out various ways to play thf, and his opinion was that you should only /mnk or use H2H when fighting skeletons, and then I think it was mainly for SATA+WS damage.

[Murphie]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

I have to say, this thread has been really informative for me. I'm going to be leveling THF soon (likely just to 37, but you never know), and all of this information is going to be really helpful. Thanks!

edit: Except all that mithra lesbian stuff. That's not helpful at all.

[Lmnop]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Except all that mithra lesbian stuff. That's not helpful at all.

mysteries of the universe need solved some time, dude.

[Malacite]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

edit: Except all that mithra lesbian stuff. That's not helpful at all.

Matter of opinion >

Have fun with THF ^^b

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Summoners: dead. Rangers: near dead. When they were alive, you could never convince one to consider SCing with a MNK.

What on earth are you talking about? RNG's and SMN's can SC, and low level ones usually would gladly do so for the asking.

I leveled SAM to 32 a few months ago, and I've SC'ed with RNG's and SMN's. Sure, I had to teach one of the SMN how to SC, but it worked after a few tries, and the SMN, BLM, and myself ended up liking it quite well.

If you didn't think to ask them to SC, don't just assume they would not.

Not to mention that the mobs favored by mnk and those favored by rng will always differ. Kagero is in prime time to make Fusion in Garlaige Citadel, but I'd rather be doing Enpi. However, I actually made a GC party in this level range just so I could do Kagero -> Combo Fusion and used my meditate WS to unleash Enpi when I could.

Low level SAM's aren't meant to dish out sky high numbers on SC; they are there to add additional utility to other melee's SC's by forming renkei with them, and enable the mages to MB. Personally, my WS choice was dictated by whether or not there's a BLM to MB--if there's one (or more), I choose SC.

It may be that MNK's and RNG's prefer different critters, but most parties fight at the same places and exp on the same monsters. Their target preference is hardly a deciding factor.

And Ewww I can't believe you just suggested poor Malacite Google Circle Jerk. Whatever you do please don't type that into google.

He asked. And, it's far better he go find out what they are on his own instead of people acting "helpful" and continue the off topic/off color discussion in this thread, like posting link to symmetrical docking and whatnot.

[Malacite]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

He asked. And, it's far better he go find out what they are on his own instead of people acting "helpful" and continue the off topic/off color discussion in this thread, like posting link to symmetrical docking and whatnot.

How's the view on that high horse of yours? Take a chill pill k?


Speaking of SAM and SMN SCing at the lower levels though, it does seem like an awful lot of people don't know what they're doing. SCing on SMN is actually the best way to deal damage early on. The only hard part is trying to remember what blood pacts chain with what weapon skills >.>

Well, that and SMN can also MB as opposed to SCing, depending on the situation ^^b


I just wish every SAM and their cousin would stop using Meditate just to get off an extra WS for the sake of WS. Please, learn to use Mediate as it was intended; a skill chaining tool.

Yet more derailment I know, but it seems like the OP's questions have been answered.


Actually, on the notion of THF/NIN vs THF/WAR:

I levelled my THF up to 45 not too long ago for TH2 and tried out both subs. WAR sub greatly improves your per swing damage, but strangely enough I didn't find it helped all that much for viper bite, which doubles your attack rating... weird.

I actually found I did higher WS damage eating squid sushi and dual-wielding DEX/AGI daggers for SATA. The difference was as high as 100 dmg some times, which was just staggering compared to the increase in DPS from meat and /war.

I dunno, my vote still goes to Squid Sushi for SATA mods and help with landing Acid bolts though. As for sub job choice, it all depends: Can you evade enough that you don't need shadows? Or do you want the added TP gain (50+) and the safety blanket of the almighty paper shield? ^^b

[Lmnop]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

I'm sensing some enmity towards me...

What on earth are you talking about? RNG's and SMN's can SC, and low level ones usually would gladly do so for the asking.
I leveled SAM to 32 a few months ago, and I've SC'ed with RNG's and SMN's. Sure, I had to teach one of the SMN how to SC, but it worked after a few tries, and the SMN, BLM, and myself ended up liking it quite well.
If you didn't think to ask them to SC, don't just assume they would not.

Rngs and Smns aren't exactly common, is what I meant. However, in my time as mnk and as thf/mnk I've pulled many-a-tooth trying to get Fusion openers (all pre-BLU, of course). Please do not assume you know everything about me and my experiences.

If you'd ever partied with me (you haven't, btw), you'd know that I talk a lot. I'm obnoxious (you figured that part out) about making sure my parties are well-informed. I make sure they realize that we have a perfectly functional Distortion with nothing but Carbuncle and a dagger. However, filters and retards drown out the fun fast. It's simple: The DD waits too long to tell the smn to go, and has like 150 tp by the time the (usually slow) smn gets around to summoning whatever's needed. That's great and all, but it's just an excuse. Now we have to look at filters. The DD always filters pets and well, everyone's everything except for themselves. Bla bla, i'm giving semantics, right? well, to cut to the chase I've had extreme difficulty trying to get SMNs to SC. Believe you me, as a person who wishes to find purpose for underloved jobs, I'm perpetually amazed at their unwillingness to pay attention!

Still one of my favorite parties ever was pld war brd smn blmx2. smn was main healer but he also opened distortion for me (Fenrir... thing to Rampage). I've prolly gotten better exp in AU, but that was my favorite party ever. Great chemistry, the Paladin refused to lose hate and our positioning was perfect for the BRD time and again. 5 incredible party members and a crappy WAR puller. I just thought I'd toss that out - I know what SMN can do.

Low level SAM's aren't meant to dish out sky high numbers on SC; they are there to add additional utility to other melee's SC's by forming renkei with them, and enable the mages to MB. Personally, my WS choice was dictated by whether or not there's a BLM to MB--if there's one (or more), I choose SC.

Killing is priority #1. Blms often don't realize this of their melee. A skillchain isn't worth it if you a) don't have an MB b) have a mage always missing the MB (sad - they seem afk more than MNKs) or c) have a weak MB. Basically, if you're looking at 200 Enpi or 50 Kagero + 50 Fusion +50 extra damage on MB, then the solo Enpi is worth more. Luckily, on Bats and beetles in GC (that seldom resist Fusion more than a half), just the SC damage is enough to make SCing worthwhile. At least... with a good closer. Sam are only damage enablers when it puts total damage potential above their own.

As for using Med for SCing with 2nd melee - most of my samurai parties lacked more than one melee to SC with. I also found it very difficult to get my fellow DD to understand that I would have TP. Especially when (what seems to be) 60% of the population is running Tparty, they assume my tp is too low to SC with them in time. Very obnoxious. I admit incompetence on my part here though - I had 2 tp macros: one for meditate O and one for Meditate X but I hit the wrong one half the time so I reverted to simply <tp> (it's been ctrl 2 for 3 years so it's out of habit to hit a diff button).

It may be that MNK's and RNG's prefer different critters, but most parties fight at the same places and exp on the same monsters. Their target preference is hardly a deciding factor.

Supporting evidence x.x Yeah, you're right.

He asked. And, it's far better he go find out what they are on his own instead of people acting "helpful" and continue the off topic/off color discussion in this thread, like posting link to symmetrical docking and whatnot.

If you actually bothered to hover over the link, then you know that it was a link to Wikipedia of all things. Hardly worth getting worked up over.

This post came off much more bitter than I intended. You'll have to forgive me this -- I'll use the excuse that I've been snowed in for 4 days now (with my brother and his girlfriend at that >.<).

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Lmnop:

My experiences partying with SMN's differs from yours, that's all; never found it hard to have them in SC. In any case, this side discussion over who to open Fusion for THF/MNK should have ended already--PLD, BLU, RNG, SMN, and SAM (at Lv.33 or so?) can do so, if you have one in the party, and if the person is willing.

Also, I've no specific objection toward where you link to, but if you do not see why these speculations and discussions about Mithra sex and etc. do not belong in the Thief forum, much less in a thread about THF/MNK and Hand-to-Hand--I just don't know what to say.

Enmity? Or frustration? Either way, certainly not toward you alone. -_-

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Continuing the post and getting right back on topic.... I had another question about THF/MNK in later levels.

So assuming we realize that THF/MNK is certainly viable, its pretty much at its best until LV20 and thereafter, you can pick other subs for damage tweaking and they can prove better.

But, what about LV40+?

Just from random conversation and banter, I've been told that THFs lose their edge on SATA VB after a certain level. Usually LV40+ is what I've heard. Now, while I can't really confirm this or whatever, I remember seeing THFs do pretty darn well playing THF/NIN and hitting 3-500 dmg sc's w/SATA VB at this level.

But, then I remember also that THF/NIN hits for alot of 0's on certain mobs w/their daggers too. It was mentioned before that this happens on beetles and stuff, so yeah, that makes sense because in the 40's you could fight alot of beetles.

Anyway, what would be the benefit of using THF/MNK at the level it could obtain Raging Fists. Heck, when do they even get it? I guess I could go check the skill charts. But really, just trying some way to get the conversation flowing again and back on-topic. What would be the best equipment for THF/MNK to use in comparsion to another sub? Would THF/MNK w/Raging Fists rule out something else as far as a sub and equipment goes at the level it gets it. I think it comes around at LV48 for THF but I'm not sure.

[Vyuru]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Thfs get Raging Fists at level 50 according to the skillcap chart I have. From what I have seen, Raging Fists for a monk main, will do around 400 damage against Soldier Crawlers. So I think that we could expect around that much, or perhaps more damage due to SATA, from a thief.

Viper Bite should do around 300-500 damage at this level. If the thief knows what he is doing he can maybe push the 600 mark. Some thfs just don't have the optimal gear for it and some do.

Which reminds me, I don't know what the stat modifiers on Raging Fists is, but to get the most out of SATA you need alot of dex and agility, dex for SA and agi for TA, I don't know if having more +str for Raging Fists (assuming it's a modifier) or if having more +dex/agi for SATA would be better.

There are alot of other considerations at this level too, for instance I used to play with alot of drks, so stack Abs Vit, Dia II, Acid Bolts, and blm enfeebles, that mob will have little to no defense and makes for easy pickings.

I don't know what to think about thf/mnk at about level 40, it looks like they would have a 25 level difference between their dagger and H2H skill ratings, that is alot. From my recent samurai in garliage experiance, 6-9 levels of Gkatana skill made all the difference in the world from whiffing constantly to being able to hit for pretty good damage.

Which is something to think about, you can use sushi and all of your +dex gear to help with your accuracy problems, but I suspect that unless you are fighting something weak to blunt, your damage will be low, you may be forced to spam bolts for TP gain, at which point it seems to me that either thf/war or thf/nin would be better for higher per hit damage, and possibly faster TP gain due to higher skill caps/more damage/more accuracy.

[Armando]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Yeah, it wouldn't work. You lose a ton of attack and accuracy, TP gain will be slower, and Viper Bite really does make the most out of SATA since it doubles your Attack when the damage is being calculated. It also forces you into /MNK sub, and then you lose out far too much from not using /WAR as well.

From my recent samurai in garliage experiance, 6-9 levels of Gkatana skill made all the difference in the world from whiffing constantly to being able to hit for pretty good damage.

If by that you mean that you levelled, then that was what made all the difference. Don't mean to say 6-9 Acc and Attack don't count, but the level penalties are pretty severe. But, you're right, -25 Attack and Accuracy is ridiculous and it WILL hurt you.
By the way, a good THF shouldn't hit for 0 on a normal mob unless they're overhunting or it's a Crawler that used Cocoon (or it has Stoneskin, but that one's kind of a moot point.) And any mob that can make a THF hit for 0 can make others hit for 0 as well.

[Malacite]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

I personally found VB to die out by the late 30's/early 40's.

WAR sub really shines from 30+ (especially in Garlaige if you're fighting bats) for your per swing damage and WS. And by 50 (the point where you'd finally have Raging Fists) you'd also be getting Double Attack.

IMO, /MNK is really only great pre-30. Yes, boost + SATA Combo is nice, but at 30 I'd much rather have berserk and main a sword for SATA Fast Blade until 33.

[Vyuru]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

If by that you mean that you levelled, then that was what made all the difference.

Yes, I gained a few levels, went in at lvl 30 with Gkatana capped at 90, and came out at 32 with Gkatana capped at 99, those 9 skill levels made a huge difference in my abilities.

At level 40, a thf will have 123 Dagger skill and 101 H2H skill, to put that into perspective, a lvl 33 thf has a cap of 102 Dagger skill. So at best, a lvl 40 thf/mnk using H2H can expect to have the accuracy and possibly damage output of a lvl 33 thf using daggers. This may not be a 100% accurate estimation, but I think it is a reasonable guess.

To me, swapping between two weapons of different ranks is almost like leveling or deleveling, what really matters to me is what you can do with that weapon. If it's a weapon the mob is weak against, that's a nice bonus, I've seen some warriors put up impressive numbers in King Ranperre's Tomb using a lance. If the WS are something special, like many of the Break WS that Gaxe has, that's another thing to take into consideration.

I think that a thf using H2H is a perfectly viable option in some instances, a bones party, maybe some ENMs/BCNMs/missions or other things I am not aware of. However I do not think that it would be a good idea to be a thf/mnk using H2H in a standard exp party.

Especially when you think of puppet masters, who have a what, C+ rank in H2H? I'm not putting down puppet masters or anything, but how many of them do you see in parties? I've heard alot of uproar about how weak puppet masters are, and they have a better H2H skill than thiefs do, so what are your party members going to think when you show up with a H2H weapon? It might be workable, but your parties may not give you the opportunity to find out.


I might be a very strong advocate that warriors should use crossbows to help increase their damage output and TP gain, but that is not their primary weapon. And with a thf/mnk you'd be giving up your primary weapon for what seems to me a substandard one.

[Vyuru]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

I personally found VB to die out by the late 30's/early 40's.

By, "die out", just what do you mean? I almost always party with a thief, and their Viper Bite damage is for the most part pretty consistant, I got into a static party in my late 40s and by my mid 50s, I'd see plenty of high 500+ Viper Bites from our thief, I want to say that I saw some 600+ Viper Bites from him but this was awhile ago so my memory might be a bit fuzzy. SATA + VB from my experiance is not something to sneeze at, I was under the impression that there is little better.