THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

So yeah, on this rampage of leveling lowbie jobs and their respective subs this past week. Originally I decided I wanted to play RNG to 75 and use WAR sub for the most part and NIN for when its needed. However, when I level WAR to 37, I want to use a G.Axe and Sneak Attack at 30 because it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling, so I need to level THF sub up to 20 or something.

Well.... I abhor the dps of daggers and I've played with swords on my RDM til my eyes bleed, literally, and I wanted to do something different and off the wall. SO, I remembed once long ago when I partied in Crawler's Nest at 53 and doing Soldier's in Awl Goggie's room and seeing a THF/MNK in there spamming Raging Fists or something in a TP-Spam party. I took filters off because I normally filter out anyone else's "z0mgzorz i'm keel tha mOnstur wiff mai BEEG DAMAJ!!!!" and found that he was doing at that level like 6-700 when all hits would connect. Sometimes, it would do 4-500 too.

Anyway, I was really impressed by this and thought, "maybe the dps on h2h would be greater than THF's daggers and make it worth it to play." The dmg from ws's looks pretty wicked and it just seems fun to play THF that way instead of the reg THF/NIN "happy-safe-candy land-utsusemi blink puller" version.

Anyway, I checked out THF h2h and then suddenly became dismayed because they have an E rating in it, but I would switch to WAR & NIN at LV60 anyway. But, do you think it would be ok to play THF/MNK and it work out just was well if not better til 60?

I mean, this guy was doing Raging Fists and not missing, but I don't remember checking out his equipment. Anyway, what saith the almighty chorus of roguedom?

[Murphie]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

THF/MNK is kickass at least prior to Viper Bite levels. It's actually pretty typical these days. While I'm sure it can work to a certain degree later on, the E rating will become more noticeable.

[Omni]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

yea the difference between a Thf's A+ in daggers and its E in h2h is 276 vs 200 (76 skill points) at lv. 75

at 60 the difference is 203 vs 171 (32 skill points).

and at 30, 93 vs 76 (17 skill points)

[Icemage]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

THF/MNK is really nice pre-Viper Bite if you've got good gear to make up for the loss of ACC and ATK from somewhat lower skill. The payoff is that Combo just completely dominates all dagger WS until Viper Bite, plus you get the attack speed increase from level 1 Martial Arts. I'm planning on using it to push THF above 30 before switching to /NIN or /WAR and using daggers.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Hand-to-Hand (E rating) pretty much sucks for THF by late 20's. At level 28, you're looking at a difference between 71 for Hand-to-Hand vs. 87 for dagger, meaning a 16 accuracy differential.

IMO, off-hand dagger and main-hand sword (D; or 76 at Lv.28) on THF/NIN is better after Lv.25, representing a decent compromise between TP gain and powerful SA+WS.

[Zempten]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Not to mention, doesn't hurt to skill up your H2h for Salvage ^ ^

[Omni]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

THF/MNK is really nice pre-Viper Bite if you've got good gear to make up for the loss of ACC and ATK from somewhat lower skill. The payoff is that Combo just completely dominates all dagger WS until Viper Bite, plus you get the attack speed increase from level 1 Martial Arts. I'm planning on using it to push THF above 30 before switching to /NIN or /WAR and using daggers.
Icemage

yes, combo alone is definitely better than any dagger ws however, let's not discount the sata-wasp sting and sata-shadowstich. both can do some pretty nice damage when you get to 30 with /ta. however, before 30, i find that sa-combo to be a lot more effective than just an sa-waspsting.

personally i used a combination of dagger, sword and h2h when leveling my thf sub.
ive been leveling my sam sub and recently took it from 27-32. ive had quite a few thfs inthe parties ive been getting and sata waspsting was causing 200-250 dmg on mandys in yhoator. sata-shadowstich was doing anywhere from 150-300 on dhamels in east altep.

h2h might have better numbers when tp'ing though.

[Murphie]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Hand-to-Hand (E rating) pretty much sucks for THF by late 20's. At level 28, you're looking at a difference between 71 for Hand-to-Hand vs. 87 for dagger, meaning a 16 accuracy differential.

IMO, off-hand dagger and main-hand sword (D; or 76 at Lv.28) on THF/NIN is better after Lv.25, representing a decent compromise between TP gain and powerful SA+WS.

76 to 71 isn't a big enough skill difference to bother, to be honest. The only reason I'd off hand a dagger at that point is if my dagger skill wasn't up to speed.

You can easily make up the ACC lost from using a lower graded weapon while still putting out excellent damage in that level range.

[Malacite]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Not to discourage you from your fun (this sounds like an awsome idea) but from about 16-20 on, you might want to try /RNG too.

THF has a C rating I believe in Marksmanship and acid bolts are ever so handy. Also, you can still get away with H2H on /RNG. You'll be slower because of the lack of martial arts, but I believe you'll gain more TP per hit too. Oh, and that Acc/Racc +10 is just killer when paired up with the king of lowbie food (Rice Dumplings)

[Cometgreen]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

RNG doesn't get the acc bonus until 10, so you'd need to be 20+ to get it when subbed.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

76 to 71 isn't a big enough skill difference to bother, to be honest. The only reason I'd off hand a dagger at that point is if my dagger skill wasn't up to speed.

You can easily make up the ACC lost from using a lower graded weapon while still putting out excellent damage in that level range.

The idea isn't that one-handed sword is much more accurate than than hand-to-hand; the idea is that to balance the bad accuracy of sword (main-hand) with good accuracy of dagger (off-hand)--especially dagger with accuracy boost like Federation Knife--to reduce the TP gain problem from using a D rating weapon.

BTW, I don't make the suggestion of sword+dagger out of some uninformed bias against Hand-to-Hand Thief--THF/MNK was my first job/support job for a long time, and I SA+Combo'ed my way to late 20's.

I didn't know about sushi or vision ring (or even weapon ranking) when I was leveling my clueless THF/MNK in that range--not even sure if they existed back then. All I knew was that I did great damage with Sneak Attack + Combo--but getting the TP to bust one out was getting harder and harder even though I was loaded with DEX. So, ended up switching to dagger out of sheer frustration with the TP gain on H2H. (I had no idea back then that SA + Fast Blade was as good as Combo, so didn't try that.)

With sushi/Jack-o'-Lantern, Battle Gloves (which I did have), Vision Rings, and whatever else accuracy gear, it may be possible to get a H2H THF/MNK's accuracy high enough to gain TP at a reasonable rate. The question then becomes why bother, when THF/NIN with the same gears and food will do even better with one-handed sword and dagger.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Thanks so much for the responses guys. Ur great.

So, I got THF/MNK to 18 last night in da Dunes. Considering the parties I've gotten have been pretty broken, its hard to tell if I'm getting good, consistent TP on a regular basis. However, it "feels" like I am doing just fine, for instance, when my pt would fight any IT or IT+ Gobs and Pugs, I was able to build up enough tp within, about, I would say a minute and a half. I would get to 100%ish and throw out a ws. At any rate, on those IT or IT+ mobs, I am doing between 100-150 dmg w/SA Combo, so I am rather pleased.

It was kind of funny though, because there was this really arrogant mithra that set up one of my parties named Chest (no idea where the name comes from, but ok). This is on the Gilgamesh server. She kept bullying me for playing THF/MNK at this level and kept trying to tell me to go change my subjob to WAR and get a dagger and that my TP gain was gonna suck and I was not contributing to the party, etc. etc. We butted heads and I refused to change my sub because I was having so much fun watching my Galka kick the crap out of stuff w/combo lol and she then proceeded to start telling me things like "you'd be doing about 152 dmg w/your sa fast blade if you got a sword and war sub." Granted, I hadn't done a WS yet in the pt, it had just started. So, pulled some crabs, built up TP and I had learned Shoulder Tackle at this point. Pulled an IT fly, busted out SA+Shoulder Tackle, and hit it for 101 dmg. Really, I just think its kick ass to see this huge galka shoulder tackling stuff, I wasn't so concerned with the damage. lol Anyway, I hadn't said anything at this point and was really starting to ignore her when she commented that the damage was "ok." Alright, fine, no problem. So, pulled another crab, built up TP, pulled another fly, and this time switched to SA+Combo. I had roughly120%ish tp at this point. War w/a sword/shield pulled of a Burning Blade, then I pulled of Sa+Combo, seeing the opportunity. Well, hit the fly for 154 damage and Fusion for 56. Fly dead. After that, she pretty much left me alone the rest of the night. www

I think its neat when you can play alternate subjobs in this game and do things out of the norm and it make sense. But, the general populace is so scared and confused when it comes to job playing and I think the whole fear about having to wait hours upon hours for a pt scares people into getting into these uniform jobs and subjobs so people can combat against the idea of never getting xp or getting into terrible parties.

Granted, that's why servers are so littered with RDMs NINs and BRDs, which parties that include those jobs are usually legendary. But, as a general rule of thumb and just being kind, people shouldn't berate others for their choices. If those choices are misguided, as in maybe a WHM/DRK joining up to melee in xp, people should politely inform others that its not acceptable. I have no problem with things that are unacceptable to play. But things that can be viable if played right and equipped correctly, regardless if its not a normal job or subjob, should not be given attrocious, opinionated banter. Especially when you end up eating your words, as in the case of my friend Chest.

I've played this game since NA Launch October 2003 and this is my 2nd character. I played a Galka this 2nd time around specifically because I wanted to play Mage characters primarily and enjoy the challenge of playing it with less than impeccable stats. So far, I've loved it and have alot of goals to accomplish alot of things w/the char in game. Its just a shame that more people don't have a willing, light hearted approach to this game. It seems people gravitate towards drama and "what can you do for me?"

[Celeal]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

in terms of damage per hit, the gap between Dagger and Sword/H2H is shorten starts at level 28~29 in the Jungles. By the time at level 30, a normal SATA with dagger alone without any WS can do about 200 ~ 300 dmg on those mandies. In those level, there are RSE with STR+, DEX+ and AGI+, better selection of dagger type weapon, higher base skill, etc.

However, in Dunes and Qufim, dagger sux ~(*.*)~

[Murphie]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

The idea isn't that one-handed sword is much more accurate than than hand-to-hand; the idea is that to balance the bad accuracy of sword (main-hand) with good accuracy of dagger (off-hand)--especially dagger with accuracy boost like Federation Knife--to reduce the TP gain problem from using a D rating weapon.

Will it really make that much of a difference in the 20s? Because that's what I'm suggesting here. I personally didn't see the appeal to dual wielding during that level range, but you may have had a different experience.

BTW, I don't make the suggestion of sword+dagger out of some uninformed bias against Hand-to-Hand Thief--THF/MNK was my first job/support job for a long time, and I SA+Combo'ed my way to late 20's.

I've leveled THF/MNK a few times now (that's the problem with having started over so many times) and I've seriously never had ACC problems. Certainly not enough that I saw the need to sub NIN (especially when I couldn't).

I didn't know about sushi or vision ring (or even weapon ranking) when I was leveling my clueless THF/MNK in that range--not even sure if they existed back then. All I knew was that I did great damage with Sneak Attack + Combo--but getting the TP to bust one out was getting harder and harder even though I was loaded with DEX. So, ended up switching to dagger out of sheer frustration with the TP gain on H2H. (I had no idea back then that SA + Fast Blade was as good as Combo, so didn't try that.)

With sushi/Jack-o'-Lantern, Battle Gloves (which I did have), Vision Rings, and whatever else accuracy gear, it may be possible to get a H2H THF/MNK's accuracy high enough to gain TP at a reasonable rate. The question then becomes why bother, when THF/NIN with the same gears and food will do even better with one-handed sword and dagger.

I doubt you'd even need Sushi at that level range. Stick with Rice Dumplings or Jack-O-Lanterns, a Vision/Mighty combo and Battle Gloves, and you really shouldn't have any problems whatsoever.

Again, this is just pre 30ish. Once you reach VB levels, I don't want to see any more Cesti.

[Armando]

Re: THF/MNK [Impossible to Gauge?]

Warning: Long-ass post. In the time it took me to look everything up and crunch the numbers, one or two people probably posted ahead of me. Anyways, here's my take on it...

The problem with daggers (at this level) is that their DMG/sec is abysmally low. I know I've said it before, but weapons are about DMG/sec first and foremost; everything else is secondary and is weighted against that. When comparing two weapons, you should compare the percentage difference between their DMG/secs, then try to judge whether the "lesser" weapon's stats can make up for such a difference in damage over time on normal hits.

Let's see, at Level 18 your options, within reasonable availability, are...

Baselard:
DMG: 08 | Delay: 186 | DMG/sec: 2.58
HQ version not considered due to rarity.

Flame Sword:
DMG: 16 | Delay: 218 | DMG/sec: 4.40
Attack -8, Accuracy -8 compared to daggers.

H2H base DMG (@46 skill): 8
H2H Delay @MA1: 400
Republic Knuckles:
DMG: 14 | Delay: 476 | DMG/sec (per hand): 3.53
Attack -8, Accuracy -9 compared to daggers (+stats already taken into account.)

The winner is Flame Sword. -8 Acc/Atk can be painful, but not only does it boast stronger WS than daggers, it has 171% the Baselard's DMG/sec. There's just no way that +8 Acc/Attack can make up for 71% more damage over time on the Flame Sword. H2H wins in WS damage, but the fact that Flame Sword has 125% more DMG/sec makes me question its ability to come out on top for overall damage. Still, if you need Fusion, it's an option. Without Martial Arts, your Delay shoots up to 480+76, rendering your DMG/sec ridiculously low.

You won't see a new, better, purchasable sword 'til Gladius/Gladiator at 27, which only has 4.47/4.58 DMG/sec. On the other hand (no pun intended...ok, just a bit) H2H doesn't see too much improvement during that level stretch, either. Daggers are still seriously trailing behind in DMG/sec 'til 24, but then pick up significantly at 25 with Federation Knife (DMG/sec 4.22, Acc+2, Attack+5.) Add on +25% damage from hitting piercing-weak mandies, and you're golden.

Personally, I'd say THF/WAR or /MNK with a Flame Sword would be best from 18-19, THF/RNG or THF/NIN with Flame Swords from 20-24, and THF/RNG or THF/NIN with Federation Knives from 25-29. At 30, as you all know, Berserk becomes available on /WAR.