Theif vs Other jobs

[Akashimo]

Ok, in a possible fail adtemp to revive the thf threads lets bring back some age old disscussions. Some guide lines though: No flames, no trolling & bring plenty of experiance that relates to the topics
Areas of interest:
Has invites for you as a thf or seeing thf in exps dropped a lot or remained about the same?
Myself it usually takes about from 0 to 3 hours lfp depending on the day. Luckliy it has been shorter due to lack of invites to mire that i'd had to hit [No thanks.] to. While this may be the case, when I try to make a pty on whm, mnk or rdm, there are usually none lfp o.O
Has Ambushed done any noticable improvements for you during fights?
Only unlocked lvl 1 on the trait but it has improved some of my ACC a little using sushi as thf/war. But not by much.
Salvage Gear - How much improvement has it made for your SATAACws?
Finally, do you think some asspects of thief needs to be majorly improved to encourage invites outside of wanting us for TH?

[Jei]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

Thf is not bad at all imo. I merit with Drk War War Thf once and was able to hit 140 chains.

The problem is people's preferences.

/sea all inv 75

thf
thf
war
thf

/p OMG WAR!!!
/invite war
/p got a war, let's wait for more war to pop.

[Akashimo]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

Yea, so what can we do to change peoples prefrences or their outlook from lolthf to zomg thf?

[Murphie]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

THF is fine. It's people that are the problem.

[Jei]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

It would go under the same idea as how to fix the burning situation imo. Because war is just very easy and effective.

[Akashimo]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

True, but it would be good to analyze each different job outlooks in the burn situation then summerize all the threads in a new one =3 Agreed that war is easy and effective, but its too good in that way that it over shadows most of what makes thf, thf.

[Jei]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

first idea that comes to mind is that thf can do 2-3 times the damage with sata making them very powerful during the 30-50 level range. That damage is really good it's worth setting up the formation among other melee. Now, if SATA can still do 2-3x the damage compare to other jobs at 75, thf might still be desireable.

say, war mindlessly hit ramapge for 1k. Thf requires a lot more work and thinking but also do 1k SA dancing. Imagine if they do 3-4k with that instead? Maybe good, maybe overpower, I don'tk now.

[Wise Donkey]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

I think what it comes down to is what I call "Party IQ". As Jei said, WAR requires average Party IQ - just Rampage for 1k repeatedly, maybe time a Skillchain. THF requires a much higher Party IQ, setting up for SATA to maximize damage. The Tank has to ride the hate line, positioning has to be correct, it requires you to pay attention. It is easier for Parties to not haev to worry about all things necessary for THF, when anothe DD job can do as much damage with minimal Party IQ.

Did that make sense?

[Zempten]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

Actually the best way I can describe it is what a friend told me. A good/decent/top WAR you can pretty much just buy off the AH. A THF has to work his/her ass off to get gear that he/her can't just buy off the AH.

That's how I see it. I've seen threads and ss and parsers showing a REALLY well gear THF matching a decently equipped WAR.

As far as Ambush goes, I'm not too sure if it helped me or not. I've been thinking of taking it out and putting it into Aura Steal.

As far Salvage goes, I don't think it's going to even come close to the majority of the THF population. I mean from what I hear the drop rates are poor. So I don't see alot of THFs comming close to getting a full set. Perhaps a few, but not the majority which is where it counts. The best example I can think of is a THF with Mandau doing high WS and everyone in the PT going like "Damn", "Broken", "They can compete with WARs"...etc. This is only 1 THF, not the majority of the THFs.

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I've been told repeatedly that Double Attack's default proc rate is higher then Triple Attack. I don't see why that is so. Sure, it means we get to SWING an extra 1 or 2 times (depend on DW or not), but I think a Dagger's base DMG and a Axe's base DMG is WAY WAY different.

Blau's Base DMG: 26 or 33 since Latent is always on pretty much.
Any Axe above lvl 50 (not counting Gerwitz's Axe) is ALL higher base DMG then 33

All I'm saying is I don't see why our Triple Atks default proc value can't be the same as a WARs. A few hits here and there surely makes up for the DMG different between types of weapons.

[Jei]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

I think a lot of jobs can get pretty good gear off AH. War Mnk Nin are what I think really are. I haven't looked into too many thf gear tho.

[Kaickul]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

What perceptions come down to (IMO) are this:

Bad THFs. People PT with a bad THF and presume all THFs must still suck.
Bad THFs being THFs who:
-/NIN to everything
-dont do their job well
-dont invest time/money into their job.
THF is a technical job where you do not just stand there and hit macros.
General ignorance. People think 'lolthf' because they assume thats what everyone does. Also as mentioned, some people are just a little brain dead and dont want to work with THFs.



G2 Merit Assessments:
Assassin's Charge - Most seem to really favor this one, but opinion has also seem divided in that the forced triple attack isnt that great with the extended timer.
Feint - Second to Assassin's Charge in value, some have choosen this for full upgrade over AS.
Aurora Steal - Also liked, but this skill depends greatly on what buffs the target uses and the success at stealing them.
Ambush - prolly the least favor, but by no means undervalued. Ambush is good if you are trying to work with meat builds but not able to get good ACC+ gear like Homam.


Skadi Gear you may not see for another 6+ months. Yeah, it takes a long time to get/upgrade from what I understand.

Overall I think THF is fine. Everything that was given/upgraded last year has been a huge improvement for THFs. Granted a lot of these changes only apply 68+, but that is fine considering our job became weak at 60+ anyway.

[711rocks]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

I think what it comes down to is what I call "Party IQ". As Jei said, WAR requires average Party IQ - just Rampage for 1k repeatedly, maybe time a Skillchain. THF requires a much higher Party IQ, setting up for SATA to maximize damage. The Tank has to ride the hate line, positioning has to be correct, it requires you to pay attention. It is easier for Parties to not haev to worry about all things necessary for THF, when anothe DD job can do as much damage with minimal Party IQ.
Did that make sense?

I agree with this quite a bit, as it was displayed in my last 2 parties. (Both in CM)

Party #1 had Thf (me), Nin, Sam/War, and Sam/Thf as the melee.
The other melee all stayed in a goddamn line and we kept SATAing the nin for great damage/hate control. I was subbing war using Red Curry (it's how I roll son) and was putting up the highest numbers (SATADE doing 1500+ SATASB doing 1400+ depending on whether or not zerk was on.)

Party #2 had Thf (me, again /war with curry), a Nin, War, and a drg as the melee.
It's not hard for a war/nin to provoke for 7 seconds or w/e while I do sataws, his shadows will save his ass. This war refused too. ("I'll die, I take too much hate as is." BS his goddamn Rampages were all over the place [a couple 1000+ which was cool I guess, but often like 600 -_-] The drg didn't want to either, but why should he have to? This was an easy thing for the war who wouldn't take any damage with his utsu anyway.) So I resorted to using TA DE which does like generally 1000+ which is nice, but it could have easily been 500+ more if he just helped me out for a sec.

In other news berserk, att food, SATA get hit with amnesia from the imp and your ws doesn't go off but the crit hit is like 800 is entertaining.

Thf has a ton of potential, just work with us yo.

[Akashimo]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

first idea that comes to mind is that thf can do 2-3 times the damage with sata making them very powerful during the 30-50 level range. That damage is really good it's worth setting up the formation among other melee. Now, if SATA can still do 2-3x the damage compare to other jobs at 75, thf might still be desireable.

say, war mindlessly hit ramapge for 1k. Thf requires a lot more work and thinking but also do 1k SA dancing. Imagine if they do 3-4k with that instead? Maybe good, maybe overpower, I don'tk now.

Idea sounds good, but what about when subbed? We've already seen how much sam, drk, mnk, drg and wars use /thf for a higher than thf dmg spike on average. That reason along takes away needing a thf in a party past 60. Now if it was thf main only for the bonus you describe, that will more than welcome for making thf update.

I think what it comes down to is what I call "Party IQ". As Jei said, WAR requires average Party IQ - just Rampage for 1k repeatedly, maybe time a Skillchain. THF requires a much higher Party IQ, setting up for SATA to maximize damage. The Tank has to ride the hate line, positioning has to be correct, it requires you to pay attention. It is easier for Parties to not haev to worry about all things necessary for THF, when anothe DD job can do as much damage with minimal Party IQ.

Did that make sense?

Yea, unfortantly it does all too well, alll too well.

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I've been told repeatedly that Double Attack's default proc rate is higher then Triple Attack. I don't see why that is so. Sure, it means we get to SWING an extra 1 or 2 times (depend on DW or not), but I think a Dagger's base DMG and a Axe's base DMG is WAY WAY different.

I'd have to say thf/war does have more Double Attacks than Tripple Attack, though on a few rare occassions a series of Triple Attack followed by 2 Double Attacks did happen in Bibiki and Mammol Ja Staging Point.

I think a lot of jobs can get pretty good gear off AH. War Mnk Nin are what I think really are. I haven't looked into too many thf gear tho.

Its on the 50/50 area for thf gear imho. Some of the best daggers I've looked up online are rare/ex. Most are from CoP areas or from BCNM/KSNM.
Actual gear, aside from suppa (helps dding w/ sword), o-hat, swift, thf af, most is gained from AH unless you got the time for abjurbs for heca. But even with heca you still gotta pay for the cursed pieces unless you crafted them.

What perceptions come down to (IMO) are this:

Bad THFs. People PT with a bad THF and presume all THFs must still suck.
Bad THFs being THFs who:
-/NIN to everything
-dont do their job well
-dont invest time/money into their job.
THF is a technical job where you do not just stand there and hit macros.
General ignorance. People think 'lolthf' because they assume thats what everyone does. Also as mentioned, some people are just a little brain dead and dont want to work with THFs.



G2 Merit Assessments:
Assassin's Charge - Most seem to really favor this one, but opinion has also seem divided in that the forced triple attack isnt that great with the extended timer.
Feint - Second to Assassin's Charge in value, some have choosen this for full upgrade over AS.
Aurora Steal - Also liked, but this skill depends greatly on what buffs the target uses and the success at stealing them.
Ambush - prolly the least favor, but by no means undervalued. Ambush is good if you are trying to work with meat builds but not able to get good ACC+ gear like Homam.


Skadi Gear you may not see for another 6+ months. Yeah, it takes a long time to get/upgrade from what I understand.

Overall I think THF is fine. Everything that was given/upgraded last year has been a huge improvement for THFs. Granted a lot of these changes only apply 68+, but that is fine considering our job became weak at 60+ anyway.

Assassin's Charge is diffently one of my favorites when going in /war build just to amp up a vorpal blade or shark bite. Ambush like you said, great for meat builds. Though, I haven't taken the time to unlock the other two abilities. As for your statement with people and thfs, yea, totally agree, even encountered a few that made me embarissed to play the job sometimes. And the ones head strong on /nin obvious from what I read of them never bothered to try /war, /drg, /drk, /blu, /sam or /mnk.

So I resorted to using TA DE which does like generally 1000+ which is nice, but it could have easily been 500+ more if he just helped me out for a sec.

In other news berserk, att food, SATA get hit with amnesia from the imp and your ws doesn't go off but the crit hit is like 800 is entertaining.

Thf has a ton of potential, just work with us yo.

True, but there are some spikes in stats by races and gear setup that can affect that dmg along with party setup/buffs. And with the dependancy on JA w/ WS for thf, Amnesia hits the party hard espically if its at the moment to set hate. Had a few that did it the moment I got behind the tank.... which make me steer clear of that area at all possible times ^.^

[Omniblast]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

The first thing that caught my attention to this thread is the aparant mis-spelling of Thief. That is all.

[Lmnop]

Re: Theif vs Other jobs

THFs would be much better if they had a unique 50 cap quest: Unable to level to 51 until they successfully make an /equip macro. Actually, the FFXI population in general would be much better if that were required of all jobs.

Nerf Warrior.