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  • #46
    Re: Is THF useless?

    Originally posted by Omni View Post
    what about, drk/thf and fuidama spinslash? or sam/thf and fuidama tachi gekko? or mnk/thf with dragonkick? war/thf with steel cyclone? drg/thf with wheeling thrust? all can drop big numbers.

    the only thing is that, this is only viable from 60+ for other jobs, while thf have been doing it for past 30 levels.

    taru edit: i voted that thf is amazing. fun job and over looked way too often. many people dont realize that from 33 - 65, thf might very well be the undisputed king of closing a renkei. other jobs finally catch up after 65.
    Even after 60, THF's SATA is genuinely the real deal; We're the only class that actually benefits from a damage multiplier from Trick Attack.

    Other jobs that use TA with their SA only transfer hate.

    Depending on the situation, I would encourage that other classes not attempt to gimp their DoT for burst damage. I would honestly encourage a SAM, DRG, MNK, DRK to sub /WAR for the sake of DoT. But I suppose if you don't have a thief in your ranks, a nice hate control substituted would be /THF.

    But yeah. There is no substitute for a real genuine authentic THF SATA WS combo. Saves alot more Mage lives when it comes to bursting.
    "Vacation. Alienation. Japanamation. Manga. Kanga. Naked Lunch. Hawaiian punch!!"


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    • #47
      Re: Is THF useless?

      Originally posted by Lmnop View Post
      >.>
      I think thf is harder than pretty much all mage jobs, but I may be mistaken. I've never actually leveled RDM in refresh levels, but from watching my brother do it, I don't think it'd be too bad. Whm is just staying on your toes and remembering what to do when, and Brd is more of a battle against your own attention span than against any IT++ mob.
      Properly played RDM is not as easy as you think either. There are so many things to keep track off.


      1) Enfeebles (this includes Dispel)
      2) Enhances: Refresh & Haste (dont' tell me WHMs got this, because those that I've met hardly want to Haste more then one person and when there is any other 2-hand wielding job in the PT they get shafted - so yes we Haste them as well. Not to mention do you really want the WHM to be wasting 80-120 MP that she/he could have used to Curaga against a bomb toss or some sort of AE thing?)
      3) Magic Burst (every little bit helps, of course if MP allowed)
      4) Pulling
      5)
      Part A:If your /BRD then songs - yes for mages and for meeles.
      Part B:If your /WHM then you better be on your toes on Paralyna. Yeah a WHM can do it, but 2 people on paralyna is alot faster then just one.

      THF does not consume as many responsibilities as we only have the duties to

      1) Pull
      2) Semi-tank
      3) use of SA or TA or both combined
      4) If you want to be specific then landing of Acid Bolts as well.

      The only thing frustrating for a THF is when people move when your TAing.

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      • #48
        Re: Is THF useless?

        Well, in my experience, it's not particularly hard to do what you're supposed to do as THF, provided that other party members do what *they're* supposed to do. The frustrating part of THF is that your success depends on others' actions as much as your own. Someone moving at the wrong time, not lining up quickly enough, or grabbing hate at the wrong time can ruin your attack. Most other jobs either don't have this problem or don't have it as bad.

        Anyway, I think with the SAM changes, you may see more demand for THF. DRG, WAR and DRK may all want to go /SAM which means they need someone else to control hate (especially the DRK). More piercing-weak mobs in TAU will help too, if the players are smart enough to realize it.

        Any DD can have some trouble finding invites, but I don't think there are any that a good pt leader just wouldn't invite except in very specific situations (e.g. fighting bones).
        Defeated: Maat, Divine Might, Fenrir, Kirin, Cactrot Rapido, Xolotl, Diabolos Prime, Kurrea, 9/10 Dynamis Bosses (missing Tav), Promathia, Proto-Ultima, Proto-Omega, 4 Jailers, Apocalypse Nigh, 6/6 Nyzul Bosses
        RDM90, PLD90, DRG90, COR90, SCH90, BLU54
        All Nations Rank 10, ZMs & PMs Complete, AUMs Complete, Captain, Nyzul Floor 100 (5 Weapons, 4 WS), Medal of Altana, WotG Mission 15, 1/3 Addons Complete, 9/9 Abyssea Main Quests, 6/6 Caturae

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        • #49
          Re: Is THF useless?

          I agree with Zemp in that thief is not merely as hard as Red Mage is (Redmage has to do alot of filler positions sometimes), but even still. We have quite an important list of tasks to complete.

          And I'll expand the list of tasks...

          -Skillchain
          -Hate Control
          -Enfeeble (Acid bolts do dispel defense bonus. Any thief that doesn't use marksmanship or doesn't have marksmanship capped should reconsider; it's a great tool and helps out your party tremendously.)
          "Vacation. Alienation. Japanamation. Manga. Kanga. Naked Lunch. Hawaiian punch!!"


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          • #50
            Re: Is THF useless?

            IMHO, there are multiple ways to make any job useless in a party, depends on condition or situation. For example:

            Throw a THF in a un-cooperative party which can't setup SATA... or in a party which SATA is not need...

            A WHM with a legendary tank...

            A subpar NIN tank against mob that can rip through shadows very quick...

            A subpar PLD tank against mob that could cause a lot of downtime...

            Invite a tank to a party that does not need a tank at all (aka burns parties)...

            Invite a SMN in a party which the party members have no clue what a SMN can offer to the party...

            The list goes on... even a very well equiped MNK can be very counter-productive if the MNK and the Tank are not cooperative, which often end up with the MNK tanking most of the fight.

            There is nothing wrong with THF. It is up to the players or the parties how to utilitize the advantages of THF.

            *Off Topic*
            As for the level of skill for handling RDM vs THF, I think it is very subjective:
            Some players are great at multi-tasking, some players don't.
            Some players are great at pulling, some players don't.
            Some players are great at party support, some players don't.
            Some players have great understand of the "art of damage dealing" and have the gear to achieve that, but some player don't.
            It is like comparing apple with oranges.
            Last edited by Celeal; 10-04-2006, 10:24 AM. Reason: typo
            Server: Quetzalcoatl
            Race: Hume Rank 7
            75 PLD, 75 SAM, 75 WAR, 75 NIN, 75 MNK, 65 BLU

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            • #51
              Re: Is THF useless?

              When you guys said that a good theif divides up TA and SA...what do you mean exactly? I'm planning on becoming a theif and I want to be a good thief, so I wanna know what you mean. XD

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              • #52
                Re: Is THF useless?

                They mean it for times when you can't SATA that that doesn't mean you can't still use Trick Attack and Sneak Attack separately. Many THFs just wont use em separately even if the fight is long enough for timers to be ready for the next mob.

                Which is a waste if you ask me.


                Edit> Come to think of it, they should've added an option that said:

                - Depends on the player.

                To that poll
                sigpic
                "In this world, the one who has the most fun is the winner!" C.B.
                Prishe's Knight 2004-Forever.

                その目だれの目。

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                • #53
                  Re: Is THF useless?

                  Originally posted by Raydeus View Post
                  They mean it for times when you can't SATA that that doesn't mean you can't still use Trick Attack and Sneak Attack separately. Many THFs just wont use em separately even if the fight is long enough for timers to be ready for the next mob.
                  Which is a waste if you ask me.
                  Edit> Come to think of it, they should've added an option that said:
                  - Depends on the player.
                  To that poll
                  So like, assuming a WS isnt up, the party is full of idiots and wont help you, etc?

                  And I agree, that hsould be for all "Is this class useless?" posts. XD

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                  • #54
                    Re: Is THF useless?

                    I think they were talking about end-game using Assassin trait. Technically, after 60 and acquiring said trait, splitting the 2 abilities up results in higher damage over time. In a melee heavy party @end game where hate control is usually not highest concern, maximizing damage becomes #1. And this means seperating SA and TA.

                    Re: RDM vs THF

                    I suppose I should level RDM. I should correct what I wrote some 2 months ago: Rdm would be less complicated for me. I'm not a good puller, first off. I'm good at supporting the party and trying to be aware of their needs (if it's my job, I can focus on it. I'm an airhead when I'm in DD mode), and I can follow a set routine very easily if it's not at all subject to change like -- cast paralyze, cast slow, cast gravity, if any resisted, repeat? Nin, on the other hand is difficult because you have to choose your casting based on time alloted by the luck of the shadows. This is why you see a lot of NINs who don't uniformly cast the same set of ninjutsus every fight. Like NIN, THF will have to change up their routine on the spot. acid bolt missed on pull, do you have time to shoot another once you arrive at camp with it in tow? Will hate go askew at the exact wrong time 6 fights in a row? Will you be quick enough to swing around and preserve your SATA? Will you be able to stack a WS and get the SC in time to boot?

                    I'm not a fast hume being. And that's what being a THF is all about. Props to those of you who do it well.
                    "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

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                    • #55
                      Re: Is THF useless?

                      Originally posted by Raydeus View Post
                      They mean it for times when you can't SATA that that doesn't mean you can't still use Trick Attack and Sneak Attack separately. Many THFs just wont use em separately even if the fight is long enough for timers to be ready for the next mob.

                      Which is a waste if you ask me.


                      Edit> Come to think of it, they should've added an option that said:

                      - Depends on the player.

                      To that poll
                      There are a few mindsets that THFs need to consider breaking.

                      1. You do not have to use a WS with SA or TA.
                      Reason: If you are out for DoT and the most Damage possible you will WS as soon as you have 100% regardless of SA or TA timers being ready. With Assassin's Charge, using TP and 100% without SA or TA makes even more sense.

                      2. You do not have to use SA AND TA together.
                      Reason: Most THFs are gaining TP fast enough with /NIN that you can break your WS between SA and TA thus doing more damage faster.


                      Truth is I rarely use TA... because I am in a LS that doesnt know how to work with THFs. Only a few people actually show up behind a target for me to use SA/TA together. Tanks dont even seem to notice that I am lining up for TA and wind up moving for some retarded reason, or WARs park themselves on the side of the mob thus turning the target when I go to use SA, and last but surely not least... BLMs just love pulling hate when I try to WS so I wind up getting this beloved message:

                      Such-n-such is too far away. (0 TP)

                      75 BLU | THF | PLD


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                      • #56
                        Re: Is THF useless?

                        When you guys said that a good theif divides up TA and SA...what do you mean exactly? I'm planning on becoming a theif and I want to be a good thief, so I wanna know what you mean. XD
                        IMO Lmnop hit the nail on the head.

                        And again, IMO, a good thief will will use SATA+WS mostly together up until level 60, using their best judgement of course. Then it's more of, use SA by itself and use TA+WS to plant hate on the tank.

                        The reason i say mostly together up until level 60 is because thiefs get Viper Bite at what, level 33? Somewhere between 31-33. With SA + Viper bite, that is an insane amount of damage, so I would think that it would be best to use that with TA to plant hate on the tank at the beginning of a fight. While you're at it, there are any number of people who can open distortion. so like dragoon (it's what I know best) I think it would also be best if you could do something like a SC at the beginning of the fight to A) plant hate on tank. B) let's the blm or whm or smn do more damage through magic bursting. C) added damage through the creation of a skill chain.

                        And since you want to be a good thief, you'll need to be able to explain how a thief works well to your parties. I find it can be hard to explain some things to people, so here's a little help, dunno if you know all this already.

                        Typical fight with a thief requires someone to be the first provoker to get the mob's hate while the tank and thf setup for SATA. A good first will know how to help them get setup. To do this, here's a little diagram to help explain.

                        Thf+mob >>>running back to camp>>>(insert tank here)>>>>Voker stands here.

                        The 1st provoker will stand so that when he provokes as the thief runs past him, the mob will run up to him, and be standing between him and the tank, letting the thief just run behind the tank and get off his SATA+WS onto the tank with little movement on the tanks part. Ideally the first provoker is also the thf's SC partner so that the mob won't turn away, thus spoiling SATA+WS. If the first provoker is not the SC partner, the SC partner should be standing with the first provoker to ensure that SATA+WS is not ruined.

                        Most times you do not want to SATA onto anyone other than the tank, with the exeption of a level 50+ dragoon. At level 50, dragoons get an abilitiy to shed like, 99.99% of their hate, so like double thrust > SATA+Viper bite onto dragon > super jump to shed all that hate. Work this out with dragoons beforehand though, nothing is worse than getting SATA+WS onto and super jump is 1:00+ from use. If you static or party alot with a particular dragoon, you get to know each other well enough that you don't need to talk, you just work together.

                        I like doing that with paladin tanks, because they hold hate really well, I do NOT like trying to grab the monster's attention halfway through the fight so that the thf can SATA+WS onto the tank a second time during the fight, it puts me at too much of a risk, with very little gain IMO. The tank will have more hate, but so will I in relation to the tank. Since there are alot of variables to each fight, that can be very dangerous and it can get me killed very easily.


                        Truth is I rarely use TA... because I am in a LS that doesnt know how to work with THFs.
                        /comfort

                        and those are the same people who complain when they get their Madrigal overwritten by Mage's ballad.


                        From 30 and into the 40s, a War/thf with sturmwind will deal damage that will never surpass SATA VB, but come close, in addtion to dealing better DoT. The downside is that War/thf gets hammered, as Kuu and other advocates of mp conservation will point out. But even despite that, I think these are the levels that give THF main a hard time because there's another job that's pretty much guarenteed to deal more damage than them in this level range. The advantage to THF's situation: war/thf is a dead breed. /nin or bust (mwuahahaa silly warriors).
                        The thing is though, I don't invite a thief for damage, I invite them to pull, to close SC that I can open, and to keep the hate on the tank. I've been told that you only transfer 1/3 of the hate when you use TA as a thf sub, so no I am never going to invite a drk/thf to close a SC with me for 1k+ damage, that means the drk has 700+ hate and the tank only got 300+ hate, that equals a dead dark knight. Thiefs don't deal large amounts of damage? I dunno, those hits for 20 damage against crabs are fast and really add up, toss in big spike damage and it looks like they can really compete in terms of DD. But as I said, the primary reason I invite a thief is as a SC partner, puller, and hate planter, and they do all of those exceptionally well.


                        You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be misqouted and then used against you.

                        I don't have a big ego, it just has a large mouth.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Is THF useless?

                          I've never actually leveled RDM in refresh levels, but from watching my brother do it, I don't think it'd be too bad
                          It's really not bad at all, the irritating thing about rdm 43+ is that people spam for refresh when you've just casted it (something like a 40 second cooldown timer on it) people who have it will still spam for it and call you names for not casting it.

                          And lastly, what made me quit rdm was the other red mages who don't do @@$# in a party, or who decided to cast dia on the crawler that I slept when the puller got a link and then refused to heal me.

                          I know that if you can't get a whm or a blm, 2x rdm works very well, and I know that it is very player dependant, but I've just had a very negative experiance as a level 44 red mage so that job is just on the side line for now.


                          You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be misqouted and then used against you.

                          I don't have a big ego, it just has a large mouth.

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