A new trick for THF/NINs?

[Coinspinner]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

MB window is longer than the SC window. With SA/TA sometimes the timing is tricky because later on you cast your spell before the closer is even used, and the length of the WS animation affects the opening of the MB window. (Dancing Edge was really annoying to MB on.) That and some people just have no rythm and use their WS a random length of time after the first WS or time the cast to land at some random point in the window.

/shrug

[Khidir]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

MB window is longer than the SC window. With SA/TA sometimes the timing is tricky because later on you cast your spell before the closer is even used, and the length of the WS animation affects the opening of the MB window. (Dancing Edge was really annoying to MB on.) That and some people just have no rythm and use their WS a random length of time after the first WS or time the cast to land at some random point in the window.

/shrug

QFT i hate it when ppl reverse the skillchain's element or they wait 2 long and i cannot mb it actually could kill our pt if the mb from the blm and rdm weren't done if the mob is very strong

[CrimsonDeath]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

It's a good idea. Just too costly at the moment being really. If you think about it, you're going to run yourself up a 100k - 200k pretty fast, for what? 10-20 extra damage?

[Armando]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Costly? The tool for Huton is 20k a stack on Midgard, and you'd only have to cast it once every skillchain, that's what, every other fight? You don't skillchain THAT many times in an hour. Moreover, resists are common if the mob isn't weak to the skillchain, and can cost you half of your skillchain damage or more. You can easily lose 100 damage in your skillchain just for not wanting to spend 4 seconds and 200g on a Ninjutsu cast every now and then. It costs a lot more to use Shihei every time you solo something or pull a fast mob, but most /NINs don't mind that.

[aegina]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

i bought a stack of shihei like 2 or 3 months ago, and i still haven't used them all up yet.

the cost of tools from /nin isn't much, even if you choose to do this trick.

[Lmnop]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Really, the biggest problem I see with this is that pick-up parties are retarded. I sit on one side of the mob saying "{Ready to start Skillchain!}" "{Thief} tp @132% <call14>" "{Ready to start Skillchain!}" "GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO" "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!?!" while the SC partner sits there and goes "Samurai tp is 178%" "Samurai tp is 190%" "Samurai tp is 218%" ... wtf. So yea, it usually takes me a good quarter of the mob's health just to coax my SC partner into using WS, so the effect of the Ninjutsu would prolly of worn off by then.

But then, I /war anyway so meh.

[Aeni]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

First of all, the casting of ichi spells take a long time (It's incredible how quick ni series is compared to the ichi when you think that at some time, SE was planning to implement a san tier... what's that? Casting is done when you're thinking about it? LOL) Secondly, some BLMs call out when everything is going to start. The THF can't do this, because of the timing. Especially if the THF is the one leading off the skillchain, there's no time to cast an ichi and fire off the WS while preserving the timing for the MB to land. One second too early or too late and you've ruined everything. To me, that's too great of a liability to fool around for 1% increase (lower levels get less bonuses) in damage that is in the lower half of the 3-digit spectrum...

However, once you can use the ni series, it changes everything. The impact might be greater (e.g., if Ichi lowers resistance by 20 points, maybe Ni lowers it by 40) and the speed in casting is much quicker (I think it's even quicker than BRD threnodies). You preserve the timing. Also, a 5-10% increase in damage is more visible on a 4-digit spectrum... which you will see often in the upper levels (My BLM friend would score 1,500-1,700+ on unresisted thundaga/firaga III MBs off Hobgoblin Anglers at 73 whenever our NIN friend lead off with debuffing elemental jutsus which I closed the chain with a SATA+Spin Light)

[Armando]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

I doubt it's a "1% increase..." have you ever seen a skillchain do consistent damage? It gets resisted too often, and THF/NINs are already forfeiting damage (Berserk, Double Attack, Attack Bonus) so they need as much as they can to make up. Like I said, even just Level 1 skillchains should do 50% of the closing WS's damage, and THF very seldom closes skillchains for low numbers. Even if you only get an extra 50 damage out of this method, it's still more than what you can get out of many other things like throwing some +stat for WS modifiers; even then, I'm sure the increase would be higher than that. And what about Light/Dark skillchains? Those should do 100% of the closing WS's damage, 150% if you're doing a 3-man setup. Also, an Ichi debuff only takes 4 seconds, it's not THAT big of a wait. People bother to turn mobs for SATA and whatnot, why would this be so different?

Also, I read that the Ni debuffs actually lower resistance less than the Ichi debuffs, but I haven't been able to go into Ballista yet to confirm that.

[Spider-Dan]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Also, I read that the Ni debuffs actually lower resistance less than the Ichi debuffs, but I haven't been able to go into Ballista yet to confirm that.

Looks like the same -30 to me:

[Armando]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Cool, thanks Spider-Dan. Now the only thing I'm wondering is what's the normal duration of the effect, and how strong Threnodies are as opposed to Ninjutsu ^^

[WishMaster3K]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

What is happening here is melee's talking about what is effective vs what is not effective, and you are forgetting the main point, assisting the mages. 30 minus on elemental is HUGE. The difference between 80 ice resistance and 105 resistance is what kept me alive during a Shiva duo whilest my RDM/NIN parter took 800 damage (I took 300, we both had Shell 4 and no stoneskin to see what the difference in our enhancing magics do)

As a RDM, and a TARU even, while I may not MB as high as a BLM (I do high 600s-mid 700s), I know my nuking power well enough to be hurt when I do 300 on the MAGIC BURST. Magic Bursts are the best things to nuke on, because you are almost "guaranteed" free damage. The BLM casting Thundaga3 for 1100, getting the mobs hate and dying is much different than the melee's SCing for, say, 800ish a piece, doing an 800 Light SC, and having the BLM and the RDM both nuke is the difference between chain 7+ and restarting the grind.

Chain 7 on IT mobs at 75 with the emp band is serious exp, if you haven't seen it.

And what is this talk about wasting time? THFs are the TP whores next to SAMs and DRGs, hell, some THFs and even WARs can waste TP on Rampage and get 100% again whilest their SC partner just reached like 140%, so saying that 4 seconds is hurting you is a pitiful argument end-game.

Mobs die too fast. 60delay = 1 second. THF generally use weapons below 200delay and with DW bonuses, they're only missing at most 2.5 swings, and don't forget to factor in that Triple attack has a 5-10% proc rate and you might proc TA on both weapons. End-game THFs should be the last one's complaining about doing damage, cause even without SA and TA, Shark Bite can easily do 500 from sucky THFs. the Better THFs can even solo SB in a spammage pt for 800-1k+.

Are 4 seconds killing you that much?

I attached a screenshot, and in this, you can see my Fire3 hitting harder than the BLMs Fire4. 400 is my average damage on nuking, but BLMs should be hitting 600+ with all their MAB and Elemental+. My enfeebling is past 280, and I havent even merited it that far and I only have +15 from gear. So I can imagine how much Elemental a BLM with similar merits has for their nukes, IN ADDITION to their insane Magic Attack Bonus traits and gear.

But yet, resists happen. Resisted nukes are not only a waste of MP, but a waste of time because if a blm nukes for 50%, then those few seconds it takes to whittle down the HP of the mob means a missed chain. Conversely, if the BLM nukes for like 800 on Thundaga3 when they've been pushing out great numbers, meaning they get hate, and more MP and time has to be spent, that's all bad for the pt.

All for 4 seconds.

Parties have gone on without it, and we will continue to do so, but the attitudes I've seen so far have been extremely selfish. It's a shame that most melee never realize how important mages/support is and most mages don't realize how important the melee are. It's a team effort and we're all here to help each other out, not simply outdamage the guy/gal next to you.

[Tokitoki]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

anything over chain 5 is the same exp as chain 5, just fyi

[Lmnop]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

but keeping chain 5 exp means you're not dealing with chain 0 exp for a little longer. Can't argue with consistent exp +50%.

[Aeni]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

I doubt it's a "1% increase..." have you ever seen a skillchain do consistent damage? It gets resisted too often, and THF/NINs are already forfeiting damage (Berserk, Double Attack, Attack Bonus) so they need as much as they can to make up. Like I said, even just Level 1 skillchains should do 50% of the closing WS's damage, and THF very seldom closes skillchains for low numbers. Even if you only get an extra 50 damage out of this method, it's still more than what you can get out of many other things like throwing some +stat for WS modifiers; even then, I'm sure the increase would be higher than that. And what about Light/Dark skillchains? Those should do 100% of the closing WS's damage, 150% if you're doing a 3-man setup. Also, an Ichi debuff only takes 4 seconds, it's not THAT big of a wait. People bother to turn mobs for SATA and whatnot, why would this be so different?

First of all, I'm only saying that in low levels, this would be quite useless, because all tier 1 and 2 spells don't do crap for damage in the first place. Tier 3 and 4 nukes, however, is a different story.

Also, bigger and better weapon skills only come about in later levels and level 3 skill chain effect does not get resisted as much as you may think (Don't compare light versus transfixion - it's not even in the same book)

Now, I can see this as being beneficial once you've gained Ni series. You may scoff at how much 3 seconds can make or break an MB (I'm talking MB timing here, not about how much damage X melee can do in that time) Like I said, some BLMs prefer to call out their timing rather than timing it with melees. This is because a BLM would not want to be caught in the middle of casting something else when the renkei is being called out. So some BLMs out there would rather avoid having to constantly miss on MBs because of this. However, because of THIS, ichi casting is pretty 'tarded IMO.

Note; this of course implies that a THF/NIN is with a main NIN. Have the main NIN debuff as normal then ... so what's the point of a THF/NIN doing an ichi anyway? >.>

[Armando]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

First of all, I'm only saying that in low levels, this would be quite useless, because all tier 1 and 2 spells don't do crap for damage in the first place. Tier 3 and 4 nukes, however, is a different story.

You make it out as if they didn't do enough damage to make skillchains and MBs worth it early on. Noone other than a NIN main can cast these Ninjutsu before 30, and by then there ARE powerful chains that can be done. Besides, they may do less damage at earlier levels, but the mobs also have that much less HP.

Now, I can see this as being beneficial once you've gained Ni series. You may scoff at how much 3 seconds can make or break an MB (I'm talking MB timing here, not about how much damage X melee can do in that time) Like I said, some BLMs prefer to call out their timing rather than timing it with melees. This is because a BLM would not want to be caught in the middle of casting something else when the renkei is being called out. So some BLMs out there would rather avoid having to constantly miss on MBs because of this. However, because of THIS, ichi casting is pretty 'tarded IMO.

So why can't the THF/NIN or WAR/NIN accomodate his casting for the BLM? All he/she has to do is cast the Ninjutsu 4 seconds before the BLM wants to start the chain. All the BLM has to do is give the heads-up 4-5 seconds earlier than usual.

Note; this of course implies that a THF/NIN is with a main NIN. Have the main NIN debuff as normal then ... so what's the point of a THF/NIN doing an ichi anyway? >.>

What if the NIN has been "spinning the wheel" and his Ni nuke timers are down?