A new trick for THF/NINs?

[Armando]

Recently I was helping a friend get his Giddeus Chest Key for the Kazham pass, and I stumbled upon Eyy Mon the Ironbreaker (Lv. 16 named Yagudo NIN.) I pulled him with Flash (I was 52 PLD/WHM at the time) and he responded with an Ichi elemental "nuke." It landed for 0 damage, and after checking my Equipment screen I saw my Ice resistance had been lowered by 30. I kept my distance, and he kept casting elemental debuffs on me; all landed for 0 damage, yet none were ever resisted, and every single time one of my elemental resistances went down by 30. The duration of the debuffs was short, around 10 seconds or so (though I didn't really count.) I frequently resist spells and enfeebles from Goblin Shamans in Batallia/Sauromugue/Rolanberry, which are at least 15-20 levels higher than Eyy. It seems the Ichi elemental debuffs, like Dia, can "never" (I've read Dia can be occasionally resisted by some HNMs, but aside from that, you can rely on it landing 99.99% of the time) be fully resisted, and at most its duration will be shortened. I was surprised - it seems that while their raw damage is pathetic, these spells are very potent. -30 Elemental resistance is nothing to scoff at.

So why is this in the THF forums? Well, if the above is true, this means THF/NIN can also land them. It's not uncommon for skillchain damage to be resisted, be it to a small or large extenct. However, a THF/NIN would be able to partially remedy this problem by casting Huton: Ichi to lower the mob's resistance to Ice (or Water if you're fighting something like crabs, which are weak to Ice but strong to Water) before closing Distortion and increase the likelyhood of full skillchain damage. It wouldn't even be very expensive. While the tools may cost 18-20k a stack, they'd only have to be cast about once every other fight.

Any thoughts?

[Khidir]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Sounds like a novelty idea i think if it was implemented it would definitely work if there wasnt a nin in the pt if you stumble across a bard though it might stack with a theorndy or two or in some instances when bards lower elemental resistances may not be needed at all


tools other than shihei tend to be 6-10k on my server is it high for all of them on urs o.O?

[capitalistnihilist]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

I did this for a while on NIN and it seemed to work for the most part. Of course I was using the Ni line instead of Ichi. The most crucial use of this was the one time I was invited to a manaburn pt to pull/tank til AM. I would pull with Huton: Ni and then the mages would freeze the mob to death. I quit doing this around lvl 57 or so as my elemental nukes were doing piddly damage compared to my katanas. I don't even have any of the tools for the elem spells anymore.

[Tokitoki]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

I used to do it on my THF but you have to let your partner know you're casting it cause otherwise they will start without you. And also you need to be able to do it fast because I'm sure as you lvl up it will wear off exp mobs fastr.

I stopped because it just seemed like a waste of time. It doesnt increase SC damage exponential while some extra TP while your SC partner could increase your damage output on WS and subsequently the SC damage.

[Karinya]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

It may be effective, but I predict it won't ever be popular. Partly because of the cost and inconvenience of carrying ninjutsu tools, but mostly because most players undervalue this type of indirect effect. Threnody has at least that much effect if not more, but who bothers to thank the bard when they have no MB resists all night? (Or even thinks about it?) Most players would rather do another 10 damage themselves then help a pt member do an extra 100 (see the comments already on this thread - one person stopped carrying the tools because the "nukes" did feeble damage, another would rather have 1-2 swings more TP than lower the mob's resistance for the SC *and all MBs*). That's kind of sad, but it's true from my experiences.

BTW, full resist from Dia doesn't come from HNMs (well, none that I've fought, anyway - up to and including Kirin and Dynamis Lord). The normal prime avatars are immune to elements other than their weakness (this doesn't apply to Fenrir and Diabolos, I don't know about the Waking the Beast versions of the avatars), and Pots and Ahrimans have temporary magic immunity buff WS. Probably the avatars' immunity would include ninjutsu, but I'm not sure about the pot/ahriman one (it doesn't stop songs, I think).

If it does work, it would work equally well for RNG/NIN and WAR/NIN too (and anything else/NIN, but those are the most common).

[Coinspinner]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

We really don't know enough about elemental resistance. I took more damage than my max HP from an "easy prey" goblin's bomb while wearing black cotehardie (putting my fire resist in the negatives) while a SAM 10-15 levels lower than me took double digit damage. Ever since then I wondered what would happen if a mob's elemental resistance dropped into the negatives, or if that's even possible for them. I always semed to me that they have a base restance to every element rather than the zero players have, and that "weakness" is simply the lowest resist score they have and not an actual negative or zero resist score.

[Khidir]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

We really don't know enough about elemental resistance. I took more damage than my max HP from an "easy prey" goblin's bomb while wearing black cotehardie (putting my fire resist in the negatives) while a SAM 10-15 levels lower than me took double digit damage. Ever since then I wondered what would happen if a mob's elemental resistance dropped into the negatives, or if that's even possible for them. I always semed to me that they have a base restance to every element rather than the zero players have, and that "weakness" is simply the lowest resist score they have and not an actual negative or zero resist score.

They do have weaknesses i mean look at the crystals they drop and cast its weakness some mobs like mandies have many weaknesses and some like hmm... i think something high in magic resistance.....

beetles, spiders, arcana? sry i can't give more info on this

[tdh]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

It's not a bad idea, but the main problem is as a Melee job, THF's are trying to get TP as fast as possible, so they can pop off a huge Skillchain and kill the mob ASAP. the Ichi level Elemental Wheel spells have a 4 second cast time. Now this could be used AFTER the THF has TP, but in a number of occasions, the THF is trying to catch up to their Skillchain Partner. (At least in my experience at the lower levels. Since their Skillchain partners are often DRGs or SAM. Both with "TP Gimmicks.")

Yes it has an up side to it, but it is worth the lost TP? The Elemental down will help prevent resists, but more TP increases Viper Bite damage. Perhaps once my WAR is to the Dual Weild level, I'll test this. See if it makes a difference for the mages at all.

[Coinspinner]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

They do have weaknesses i mean look at the crystals they drop and cast its weakness some mobs like mandies have many weaknesses and some like hmm... i think something high in magic resistance.....

beetles, spiders, arcana? sry i can't give more info on this

I think you misunderstood me. I meant that a mob may be said to be weak to fire, but it's fire resist is 20 while it's water resist is 200 and it's other resists are 60.

I say that because I grouped with many NIN and BRD who would lower resists for me but never saw freakishly high damage from it. But when I wore a body piece with negative fire resist on it I got hit for some absurd damage by a goblin many levels lower than me

(Also, look at bats. Weak to wind, drop wind crystals. Crystal drops aren't a perfect indicator.)

[ClydeArrowny]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Yes it has an up side to it, but it is worth the lost TP? The Elemental down will help prevent resists, but more TP increases Viper Bite damage.

All tp does for viper is increase poison duration of WS. It increases acc for DE and dmg for shark and evis though.

[Armando]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

I stopped because it just seemed like a waste of time. It doesnt increase SC damage exponential while some extra TP while your SC partner could increase your damage output on WS and subsequently the SC damage.

It's true that it won't increase the damage at all, but it'll reduce the frequency at which you get resists. Level 2 skillchains do 60% of the damage of the closing WS, and even Level 1 Skillchains still do 50% of the damage of the closing WS, so when you're a THF closing skillchains for 400 you're looking at 240 skillchain damage if you're closing Distortion. Just a 25% resist will lower your damage by 60, and by lowering the enemy's resistance you're also allowing the mages to get the most out of their MBs, like Karinya said.

We really don't know enough about elemental resistance. I took more damage than my max HP from an "easy prey" goblin's bomb while wearing black cotehardie (putting my fire resist in the negatives) while a SAM 10-15 levels lower than me took double digit damage. Ever since then I wondered what would happen if a mob's elemental resistance dropped into the negatives, or if that's even possible for them. I always semed to me that they have a base restance to every element rather than the zero players have, and that "weakness" is simply the lowest resist score they have and not an actual negative or zero resist score.

From personal experience, I do believe this is correct. In a Diorama I reserved for testing purposes, a level 40 RDM with far more INT than me couldn't land unresisted Fire spells on my 50 PLD even when I had Burn and Bomb Ring. On the other hand, a 75 BLM would land 100% unresisted Fire nukes on me even with double Puissance Rings and Barfire up, and some +INT earrings. There's definetely a hidden resistance value, and what's shown on your equipment screen is just your relative resistance compared to the normal resistance.

It's not a bad idea, but the main problem is as a Melee job, THF's are trying to get TP as fast as possible, so they can pop off a huge Skillchain and kill the mob ASAP. the Ichi level Elemental Wheel spells have a 4 second cast time. Now this could be used AFTER the THF has TP, but in a number of occasions, the THF is trying to catch up to their Skillchain Partner. (At least in my experience at the lower levels. Since their Skillchain partners are often DRGs or SAM. Both with "TP Gimmicks.")

Yes it has an up side to it, but it is worth the lost TP? The Elemental down will help prevent resists, but more TP increases Viper Bite damage. Perhaps once my WAR is to the Dual Weild level, I'll test this. See if it makes a difference for the mages at all.

A 4 second cast is only causing you to delay one attack round. 5 TP isn't going to make or break your damage, nor will it kill the party to wait just a bit more. Besides, the skillchain can probably be started mid-cast anyways, so that by the time that the ninjutsu is done and you can take action again it's already time to do the WS. Like I said earlier, though, resists WILL cut your damage down, so in my opinion, it's worth the 4 seconds. People go through sillier lengths to add 10 damage to their WS (stat modifiers, anyone?)

(Also, look at bats. Weak to wind, drop wind crystals. Crystal drops aren't a perfect indicator.)

Yeah, crystals are awful indicators XD Half the goblins drop Fire crystals, the other half drop Lightning crystals, yet no Goblin is weak to Water nor Earth, nor are they strong to Fire or Water; they are, however, weak to Light.

[Tokitoki]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Most players would rather do another 10 damage themselves then help a pt member do an extra 100 (see the comments already on this thread - one person stopped carrying the tools because the "nukes" did feeble damage, another would rather have 1-2 swings more TP than lower the mob's resistance for the SC *and all MBs*). That's kind of sad, but it's true from my experiences.

Even with -20 resistance you can still get hit with full damage of a spell. If the BLM is having trouble bursting full damage the majority of the party then thats their fault, not ours. It's not like the - resistance will increase max damage from their nuke. If they have to rely on a Threnody or Ichi debuff effect then are they really doing their jobs?

Most BLM focus on all the INT and Magic Atk. Bonus they can get. If the BLM decides to sacrifice INT and Magic Atk. Bonus for MP+ then that's their problem. If I can increase the modifier on my WS from 2x to 4x, which will do more damage overall? The added 100 DMG to WS and 50+ DMG to the chain itself with the normal MB damage, or an extra chance that the BLM doesnt getresisted for 30 DMG?

[Armando]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Tokitoki: I respect your decision to have stopped using the tools, but I'd like to point out two things;
1) The debuff would not only benefit the nukers, it benefits you too very largely; I still get partial resists quite frequently when me and my girlfriend do Scission on EP an DC orcs in Davoi. Kinda says a lot about how likely an IT is to resist skillchain damage at least a bit.
2) Noone said the nukers have to rely on it...a close analogy would be BRD and melees. The melees shouldn't be denied the songs just because they shouldn't rely on a BRD to be able to do their jobs. I don't have any high-level caster experience, but I wouldn't be surprised if they get resists on their MBs every now and then. A little extra help never hurts.

Anyways, I'm out of Ballista points right now so I can't reserve a Diorama yet, but I did some semi-formal "testing" on Zhuu Buxu the Silent. Zhuu Buxu, like Eyy Mon, is a level 16 named (important distinction - it's not a NM, as it doesn't give the Impossible to Gauge message, and doesn't seem to be stronger than other yags) Ninja yagudo. I was 52PLD/22 WHM at the time with Protect III and Shell II. I recorded the duration of 26 Ichi elemental debuffs before something important came up in real life and I had to log out. My method was simple; I made two macros. The first consists of 1) /echo Effect started! 2) /clock and the second consisted of 1) /echo Effect wore! 2) /clock. The /clock commands are obviously so I can tell the duration, and the /echos were simply so that I had a clear way of telling when a /clock command marked the sticking or wearing of the debuff. I was disengaged and from a distance. When he began casting, I'd hit Cancel to remove him as my target. Then, when his spell landed, the game would automatically target him again, and I used that as the signal to hit the first macro. After that I opened and closed my equipment screen as fast as I could until I saw the elemental resistance go back to normal, and I'd hit the second macro. I subtracted 3 seconds from the times listed here to account for human reaction and the time it takes for the equipment window to close, the macro pallete to open and accept my macro.

Duration (seconds): 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 14, 15, 16, 14, 15, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 14, 15, 18, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15
Average duration: 14.73

There were no resists, and the duration was surprisingly consitent. I'm beginning to wonder if they have a set duration of 15 seconds. I'll have to check in Ballista soon. It certainly looks as if they last long enough to allow for a skillchain though, even against ITs.

[Coinspinner]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

With the cast time on Ichi jutsu, to land it with enough time for both a skillchain and a magic burst a THF would have to complete his cast about the same time the SC opener looses his WS and already be on position for his own WS. RNG, WAR, and NIN seem to have it easier.

[Armando]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

It doesn't take THAT long to do a skillchain and Magic Burst. I think the most you can wait after the first WS is like 4-5 seconds, same goes for MB. That's 10 seconds at best. The THF would have to be in position, and ready to go, yeah, but that's no big deal (don't they already put themselves in position before their WS?) Ichi casts are 4 seconds, you can just position yourself, tell the SC partner to go ont he 3rd second of the cast, 2-3 seconds later you're doing your WS and 3-5 seconds later the MB is hitting.