thf without nin sub

[Lmnop]

Re: thf without nin sub

@50 war/nin, the warrior benefits from 5% added DoT via delay reduction.

@50 thf/nin, the thief benefits from more tp via the tp floor.
Note that i'm lazy and won't do the math but i'm sure you can abuse the tp floor before 50, but it gets better @50. Though still, it's marginally better than thf/war since that just so happens to be the same level as double attack for 10% extra tp. Thf get tp fast enough if they're not hitting for 0 damage.

Also: VB is actually a one-hit WS that deals double damage. Interesting stuff, eh? Spider-Dan tested it with screenshots and all. Pretty sure S-E did this on purpose because 1 hit stacks better than 2 (hence, VB is more powerful than Fast Blade). Of course, dual wield adds an extra swing on that, but it's completely normal: no Stat modifiers, no tp modifiers (haha, poison in this instance), and certainly no SA or TA bonuses. So we're looking at adding maybe 10 damage to your SATAVB... oh, but it'll add 1 or 5 tp (not sure which).

[Armando]

Re: thf without nin sub

Actually, I believe the extra hit has stat modifiers, just like Double Attacks. The fTP multiplier is fixed at x1 though. Also, are you sure that it deals double damage, rather than doubling Attack? Double Damage would imply that if a THF is doing SATA with capped Attack for 400, her SATA Viper Bite will do 800. Double Attack implied that if the THF's Attack is capped, SATA will do, say, 400, and Viper Bite won't be too far off; but if the THF just barely get the mob to check Low Defense, SATA may be doing around 200, but Viper Bite can still do around 400.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: thf without nin sub

It's double damage, I was mistaken. But that's what makes the move so powerful, that it's double damage, and SA alone makes it hit in the 300s due to it making it an instant Critical, and paired with TA, it pushes it past 400.

And I was also mistaken again, because the second hit from the WS, in this case, is the off-hand weapon, not a damage modifyer from a multi-hit WS. But regardless of that, THF get TP pretty fast, with all their DEX gear, their accuracy isnt bad. Or maybe my ACC as a NIN sucked ASS, which it did.

In the pt that got me to NIN37, it was THF THF NIN PLD RDM RDM, and we were killing so fast due to the THFs being able to SATA freely on either me or the PLD for damage while I built TP for Blade: Rin. Sadly, by the time i got to 100%, my WS partner would be in the 200s, usually. But here's the thing, they were only hitting for single digits to low-double digits, whilest even with sushi, I was able to hit in the 20s and 30s, high 30s w/Berserk. Even weak ass Blade: rin was doing damage in the 70s and 80s.

All that didnt matter tho, because they gained TP so ridiculously fast. THFs are better when they use weapons below 200 delay, even tho they are taking a loss of base damage from many weapons such as the Harpes at the higher lvls. It's not about base damage, when you're a THF, it's all about getting enough TP to do WSs asap. Damage can be done by soloing TA or soloing SA for free TP while youo wait for the other melee.

[Lmnop]

Re: thf without nin sub

I've been playing with THF DoT and higher base damage recently to try to accomplish a thief that doesn't only prove its worth every minute. However, i am too low level for most of the gear that I could use to try this and i don't have enough inventory anyway, so it's basically STR rings during tp for me. -.-

About VB: If I remember right, the damage of a non-SA/TA VB is roughly double what your normal swings are. But that may just be how the numbers work out with such a low base damage. I'd be more inclined to believe it's double "attack score" if my SATAVBs were more consistent. that much attack -should- equal consistency. Not to mention the very physics of a called crit (sneak attack) is much the same as adding a bunch of attack (just done after the equation instead of before, right?). It should equal out to one hella high damage, high consistency attack, but it's far from it. Though in the same way that I thought the misconception was coming from such a low base damage, this could be an observation based off of the rediculously high base damage of SATA swings.

If that didn't make sense, I'm basically talking about how higher damage weapons seem to have a wider damage range, but parsed over a large period of time shows that it's basically just as much change as a lower base damage weapon that swings often. Meh, VB is still a mystery to me.

About the modified extra swings. This makes me re-think Shadowstitch and all the times it dealt more damage than it should be able to. Basically, the 30% CHR modifier makes a rather small number slightly bigger, so it's slightly higher than a normal SATA. But if it's as Armando says, then a /nin thf using shadowstitch would get an extra hit buffed up on CHR... This is pushing it, as I think it'd up the offhand swing from 10 extra damage to 12 extra damage and 140 vs 152 isn't worth talking about. However, i'ma look into this.

[aegina]

Re: thf without nin sub

THF/NIN is more than just "looking cool", I'm sorry Aegina. A lot of ppl would flame you for that ^^ just a fair warning.

i'm a thief/nin. i don't sub ninja because i think it looks cool, i sub it because i think it's the sub that works the best. i sub it for utsusemi, tho. to me, dual wield is eye candy, even if you do get stat boosts from your off-hand weapon and mad tp from low delay daggers. what i love the most about /nin is SHADOWS! mess up on a pull? tripple your chance to survive!

utsusemi has saved my life soooo many times... both on my thief and on my ranger...

oh, and i was referring to dw1 pre utsusemi in my above post. at level 20/10, dw1 doesn't give you very much...

[DemonicDrew]

Re: thf without nin sub

on my server (seraph) almost no thf past lvl 20 has any sub besides /nin, and i wonder if this is for a reason. i'm thinkin of lvlin thf because i think it would make a good sub for the newly revealed corsair job (not to mention sam and mnk).

however, i should think many people sub /nin for a reason, and i was wondering maybe if it had anything to do with the amount of pt's u get.

so the question is: can i still get pt's as often with a war or sam sub as i would with nin?

Most THFs pull when in a party so they sub ninja so they can do it more effeicently. That way when they get back to the tanks they aren''t half dead and need to spend many of the whm's MP... other then that I'm not sure why they do. It might be for the dual wield also, but I still think it is for the shadows.

[Karinya]

Re: thf without nin sub

I was THF/NIN in the 20's just because there was no good reason to be anything else (and because I could use sword in main for Sneak Attack+Fast Blade, dagger in off for TP and normal hit damage). But once I hit 33 and did SATAVB, then berserk SATAVB... I didn't want to ever go back to /NIN again. The damage difference is huge, easily over 100 more damage. And therefore so is the difference in hate transfer. That's on top of the higher STR, Attack Bonus, and later on, Double Attack (which also improves your TP generation, although for THF, Dual Wield does too).

So I guess I'm in the "THF/WAR unless it will kill me" camp.

I'm pretty sure VB is double damage, not double attack; otherwise Berserk wouldn't have such a huge effect because it would already be at the attack cap, wouldn't it? It's the combination of increased base damage from SATA, doubling that damage from VB, and then applying attack (and Berserk) on top of that that makes SATAVB the damage monster it is.

[Armando]

Re: thf without nin sub

Ok, thanks ^^ I was hessitant to think it'd be Attack x2 for that very reason.

[Atam]

Re: thf without nin sub

I see both sides, how both subs are really good. I have both war and nin leveled, so I can use them both, depending on the party is setup. If you prefer /war, go as war and if they "need" /nin you can then change.

I personally don't see why people think that nin is the best sub for almost anything. I remember looking for a tank and getting all excited seeing a Paladin lfg. Now you hardly ever see paladins. I remember fighting crazy hard monsters with no ninja in the pt, and we easily killed the mobs. I don't know, I just miss the old days, when quality and skill were really important.

[DemonicDrew]

Re: thf without nin sub

I see both sides, how both subs are really good. I have both war and nin leveled, so I can use them both, depending on the party is setup. If you prefer /war, go as war and if they "need" /nin you can then change.

I personally don't see why people think that nin is the best sub for almost anything. I remember looking for a tank and getting all excited seeing a Paladin lfg. Now you hardly ever see paladins. I remember fighting crazy hard monsters with no ninja in the pt, and we easily killed the mobs. I don't know, I just miss the old days, when quality and skill were really important.

I know how you feel... I use to love seeing warriors and paladins to come tank... Now it is all about the Ninjas... I tried to start a party once and they beg for a Ninja when we had to Warriors to tank... Warrios are now so down graded to Damage Dealers now and Paladins are only used for backup tanks... WTF! Why can't we have the old days back! ; ;

It's just crazy...

[Dadelon]

Re: thf without nin sub

I know how you feel... I use to love seeing warriors and paladins to come tank... Now it is all about the Ninjas... I tried to start a party once and they beg for a Ninja when we had to Warriors to tank... Warrios are now so down graded to Damage Dealers now and Paladins are only used for backup tanks... WTF! Why can't we have the old days back! ; ;

It's just crazy...

BACKUP TANK? How small our class has become.......
Makes ME want to lvl Thf or ninja just so I can go to the A.H,
Buy one of those (cough) guns,and one bullet.
But just as the honorable Dragoons did,We will also rise from the ashes...
Long live Paladins...
Long live Dragoons..

[DemonicDrew]

Re: thf without nin sub

BACKUP TANK? How small our class has become.......
Makes ME want to lvl Thf or ninja just so I can go to the A.H,
Buy one of those (cough) guns,and one bullet.
But just as the honorable Dragoons did,We will also rise from the ashes...
Long live Paladins...
Long live Dragoons..

RIGHT ON! Sadly that was like a year and a half ago when I was a different character... I miss my Pal/War... BUT WE SHALL BEAT OUT THE NINJAS! When they run out of tool who do they hide behind... Paladins and Warrios... MUWAHAHAHA!
We rule...
They drool...

[WishMaster3K]

Re: thf without nin sub

Honestly, this is a THF/NIN discussion, but since we detracted a bit. . .I love tanks, period. They keep my soft taru flesh safe. But every tank has a time and a place. In this era of gaming, people are obesessed with "efficiency", and to them, "efficiency = speed"

And it's faster to have a pt with a RDM BRD NIN 2Melee and maybe another melee or even a BLM for MBs. But the truth is, this game was MADE to be a timesink. We don't need 10k/hour exp in melee pts in sky, nor do we NEED 6k/hour pre light/dark SC.

But if you're only pulling 4k/hour, you're in a "gimp" pt. The nature of PLDs doesnt allow them to be in pts where there are fast movers. PLDs are more like the giant armories on the battlefield, not the quick-dodging assassins that NINs are.

Nothing wrong with PLD tanks, it's just that, like I said, ppl gauge skill with the exp/hr you're getting, so when you can simply have a NIN tank, and make 2 spots open for more DDs, then you kill faster. (A NIN in the pt means you don't need a WHM main heal to cure bomb, nor do you need a PLD tank, so, 2 extra spaces)

So like I said, every job has a time and a place. There are things NINs can do that PLDs cant and Vice Versa. I only know 2 NINs that can tank Faust (A golem in the sky, who spams AOEs every 5-10 seconds), but they did it by adding on the Def and -Damage%. PLDs can't tank Charbydis, because he attacks so fast. Likewise, PLDs can't kite a God like Kirin, mainly because he hit's hard, has hard hitting Moves and magic, and Binds with like, every swing; and NINs can't straight up tank Gods like PLDs, because when they get hit, it is most likely death if they get interrupted. In addition, NINs have trouble holding the INSANE BLM & RNG hate that is rampant on Gods.

Point of this derailment:

Time and a place, if you didnt figure that out by now. So, PLDs, don't feel bad! WHMs still love you, because their job isnt as boring as itis with NIN tanks, but RDMs still would prefer NIN tanks, because with NIN tanks we don't have to Enfeeble, Refresh or heal as much. Just Haste ^^ (lol, had to throw that in)

And NINs, well. . . You think you're bad shyte, but you're job is 700% more expensive than other jobs, you need to be flawless as a NIN to hold hate half as well as mediocre PLDs, you won't be able to tank Gods when you're 75, you'll just be more fodder to throw in there and kite while the tanks wear off from being weakened, and you'll most likely lose hate on the SC.

But as long as ppl think that NINs = T3h Sex, you'll have a job. So . . . . nothing to worry about.








Ok, back to THF/NIN. For ppl who think that THF's never get hit, here is a /slap for ya. Ep mobs still hit me and I have 215 Evasion and +31 evasion from gear, so of course a THF pulling a mob that is VT - IT will get hit. THF/WAR is very benificial, granting that you don't get hit.

There are too many unknown unknowns in exp to take that risk for more damage on SATAVB. But alas, THF/WAR is effective to a point, and I think that point is somewhere in the 40s, and non-existant in the 50s. With the introduction of Triple Attack and Dual Wield 2 from NIN sub, in addition to lower delay Daggers, THFs can ABUSE the TP floor of 5 TP from low delay daggers, proc Triple Attack, and not give a shit about DoT.

I feel that at this level, THF/NIN is more a necessity than anything, because pulling things like raptors is no longer a game, it's a life/death race. I suppose, however, that THF/WAR might still be a viable option, because it's bad enough that THFs get TP insanely fast, so there is no point in having 100% TP when your SC partner is at 65%. . . . So on that note, maybe using /NIN or /WAR depends on the setup.

If the SC is with a WAR (before WAR have access to the sub weapons that are broken out their asses, like Joyeuse, and enable them to get retarded fast TP. . . ) or a DRG (as is usually is at this level) then maybe /WAR is for the best.

I say to just have both leveled and to realize the benefits of each.
-/NIN is faster TP gain, but you'll lose some attack, meaning that you'll hit fast but likely 0-5 each time, gaining no TP
-/WAR gives you Atk bonus and Berserk, but Triple Attack actually procs more with TP floor abuse.

Speculation, speculation, and observations from a Backliner. Use them at your discretion, but like NIN and PLD tanking, THF/WAR and THF/NIN has a time and a place. . .

[Lmnop]

Re: thf without nin sub

You have a lot of valid points, but a few things I still don't like...

Paladins are 2nd to ninja for the whole game just so they can be preferred for maybe... 3 battles in the whole game. And humorously enough, a ninja can do all that stuff too, they just need a good support team and often-times(like you said) a phys damage-/HP+ set up to do it. What's humorous about that is that nins can gear themselves with more damage reduction than paladins. Yes, that seems many years worth of wrong. I don't like that "PLD is easier, but it's ultimately not as good." If that's the case, I think they need to introduce something to paladin that gives them hella lot more potential for tanking but only good players would understand how to do it effectively, making pld at least close to as hard as blink tanking.

DRG don't really gain tp slow, btw. They pretty much beat every melee @tp except for sam though they make use of that extra tp (like skewer since it's acc varies with tp).

About thf/war though: it's not a 'marginal' increase of damage. It's a 3 minute period of SATAs that are consistently high. too bad it's basically impossible to fit in a 3rd SATA :/ Ok anyway, you left out double attack from /war. the marginal DW haste benefits roughly equal your chances of double attack processing. Sure, it won't stack with Triple attack, but TA is 5% and DA is 10% so with those small of numbers, the chances don't seem too big that they'd both proc on same swing (is that a 10% overall rate of multi-attacking if I'm doing my math right? So you basically TA 5% and DA 5%). Also, you're running a wee bit less risk of hitting for 0 with /war.

About pulling: I'm not fighting raptors yet so I don't disagree, but even things that run slightly faster than me aren't a problem. Yea, I do a lot of pulling in xbow sweetspot and when the beetle wanders towards me while shooting, he usually takes a few swings out of me. And yea, I evade at least 50%, considering that at this point (42 yay!) I have evasion bonus II, +15 Eva abouts and +15 AGI abouts (in evade set -- nice for anyone dedicated to thf/war). Guess what else, if I only screw up a pull every 5 minutes, I have my good friend flee! Also, my bard friend takes care of me when I get back. I have to explain to every main healer we get not to worry about me unless i'm at like, 90 hp. That's what back-up is for. A Regen and a cure 2 from bard and being a thf, I usually won't get hate again.

[aegina]

Re: thf without nin sub

there are many camps where you don't need shadows. most of the time, at most camps, you won't get hit more than once when pulling. for me, utsusemi wears off moe often than it gets used up, and sometimes i don't even bother with recasting it at most camps.

still, i promote /nin over /war. having the shadows if you need them is better than not having them. dw2 tp floor abuse is fun-mad fun =D i don't know if it is exactly better than double attack or not, but it still rocks

hehe, too bad you can't sub both ninja and war at the same time =D (that was a joke, btw)