thf without nin sub

[Gilge]

on my server (seraph) almost no thf past lvl 20 has any sub besides /nin, and i wonder if this is for a reason. i'm thinkin of lvlin thf because i think it would make a good sub for the newly revealed corsair job (not to mention sam and mnk).

however, i should think many people sub /nin for a reason, and i was wondering maybe if it had anything to do with the amount of pt's u get.

so the question is: can i still get pt's as often with a war or sam sub as i would with nin?

[Caspian]

Re: thf without nin sub

Yes with /war, /sam may slow down invites atleast until later levels. (/SAM also doesnt bring anything huge to the table anyway: Third eye only useful for pulling, utsusemi can do it 3x over with minimal damage loss, Meditate isn't very useful since THF's are quite often the first to be ready for SC anyways) /WAR offers Berserk which will make you hit huge numbers on SATA. /NIN offers the ability to offhand a dagger with either stat boosts, or a low delay to really make us of the 5 tp minimum per swing. However, /NIN isn't useful at all until 20 when DW becomes available (even then not much use for THF's since there aren't many good swords or daggers with great stat boosts on them at this point) and 24 when Utsusemi becomes available. Utsusemi is nice to be sure, but when pulling in xp parties, very few mobs can outrun you, and if you take care you won't need the shadows anyway, especially at those levels.
So, why do most thf's start subbing nin at lvl 20? B/c they don't want to have to keep switching subjobs.
Will going /war hurt your invites? Unlikely, they're both about equal at this level.

[aegina]

Re: thf without nin sub

yes, thiefs go /nin for a reason. that reason is utsusemi. dual wield looks cool, too. utsusemi makes it so you can pull almost without geting hit anymore, and dual wield 1 looks...cool...

i tried /war and i tried /sam. /nin was so much better that i never regretted leveling it for my sub. utsusemi is soooo much better than anything else you can get for a thief at those levels. and and dual wield 1 .... looks... cool....

but, to be honest, yes. if you're just taking it to 37, you could sub war or sam and still do just fine to 37, so long as you play well. ninja is better-way, way better, but you can pull it off. you'll have to be careful on pulls tho. pull from maximum distance, etc. Outside of pulling, a thief really doesn't use utsusemi cuz you really don't ...ever... get hit 24-37.

yes it can be done, but will others accept you with /war? maybe, but that's a different story. dual wield 1 may be near-useless eye candy but it just .... looks.... .... . . . cool...



on a different note, how do you know what the best sub is for corsair? what if it's /nin? what if it's /rng? corsair DOES use ranged weapons, remember... i don't think a range-based job will have much use for /thf and /mnk. corsiar is not a dd they said, and sneak attack and boost don't stack with ranged attacks.

[Aeolus]

Re: thf without nin sub

/nin is for the huge Agi boost as well that you get for your trick attacks. I would say the utsusemi is just an added bonus. /war has crappy Agi in comparison and your Trick attacks without berserk up are weaker.

[Armando]

Re: thf without nin sub

I don't think the difference in AGI is big enough to make up for the lack of Berserk, though. One point of AGI will add, at best, 3 damage, and that's if you have capped Attacked. Maybe it changes by endgame, but I think Berserk is better.

[Karinya]

Re: thf without nin sub

Yes, it changes by endgame - the agi contributed by subjob becomes even *more* insignificant as it is dominated by higher base agi and gear; Berserk, which is percentage based, gets stronger the more +atk gear you have.

THF/WAR outdamages THF/NIN by a solid margin, from 30-75, mainly because of Berserk. Double Attack and Attack Bonus contribute a little, too. However, THF/NIN takes less damage when pulling, from aoes, etc. Below 30, it usually doesn't matter much what you sub because monsters are so easy.

Which one is more effective depends on the area, mobs, etc. Which one gets more invites depends on the mindset of other players on your server.

However, if you level both, and put in your search comment "SJ: WAR, NIN", you'll get the best of both worlds, except from idiots too stupid to even read a comment. You probably don't want to party with them anyway.

[aegina]

Re: thf without nin sub

i chose thief/ninja for one thing: utsusemi. anything else was just a bonus.

i've used thf/war before, and you can argure theory all you want, but i didn't like it.

[Balgas]

Re: thf without nin sub

I myself went THF/WAR but only until level 30 when I opened up NIN. After that it was NIN all the way, Utsusemi is a lifesaver and dual wield reduces a little bit of the delay time on your weapons. Tonko is also useful.

I didn't have any problem in being outdamaged. People were perfectly content on the damage that I was dealing. Sure with WAR the damage output might be better but you also have that disadvantage of getting hit while pulling. It's just a personal preferance, and I personally prefer THF/NIN. =D

[Kaickul]

Re: thf without nin sub

There are a couple of different camps on other forums in regards to this.

There are those that feel /WAR is the best for EXP PTs.
Reasoning (as stated)
Berserk
Double Attack

What you choose is really up to you and how you want to play THF. From what Ive seen, people either think THF should be speed TP gainers, or DoT and WS damage class.

For me, my opinion is a good mix of the two. Have good stats for WS, and balance out ATT and ACC as needed.

Also, you can sub MNK up to level 30-40 with suprising results. I used /MNK up to 30 and would have used it until 40, but people are expecting /NIN by then.

[Lmnop]

Re: thf without nin sub

just got 40 thf last night =)

aaaaand I've been /war since 33.

Thf/nin @20 better be mainhanding sword and offhanding dagger or i'ma kick their arses. There's no reason to be /nin 20-30 if you're not doing this. I did thf/mnk from around 27-30 because I did all those levels exping off of gobs with a RNG in the party (rng is only DD that can open fusion at these levels and gobs are weak to fusion pretty bad). Basically, once you can mainhand a dagger (33), I think /war is stronger stuff. I don't have a problem with thf/nins or even thf/rngs (though i've never met a thf/rng that used the combo to its fullest) but personally, /war all the way.

As for thf/nin taking less damage -- most thf/nin I've exped with don't even keep their blinks up to date. I know i let blinks slide quite a bit. When you only get hit once every hour or so, it just doesn't seem worth it. This obviously changes with level, but @30... not so much. Oh, and I use Xbow and try to pull from what I percieve to be optimal distance -- not max distance.

Don't sub SAM. Whatever job you took to 30 to unlock sam is prolly a better sub.

[aegina]

Re: thf without nin sub

i do agree that utsusemi is pretty overrated on thf. if you are in an area with short pulls, it really ends up serving no real purpose. i must admit that if it is a short pull, a lot of the time i dont even bother to cast it. it totally rocks in camps that have long pulls, tho, and can seriously save your life at times.

[Weeeekujata]

Re: thf without nin sub

The only really hard part to pull xp wise is luf m. Valley of sorrow was pretty easy since it was short pulls, and the raptors seemed to miss me much.

currently other than luf M. I do all /war unless soloing XD I think 75 the extra eva skill will help a lot on the pulls too.

[Tokitoki]

Re: thf without nin sub

The only places I would say NIN really makes a difference is Valley for the long pulls when your PT chains fast, Lufaise cause of the birdies, sky/moon because of whirl of rage, and Onzozo cause toramas run fast as well.

Unfortunately since the only places you lvl endgame really are sky, moon, and lufaise (i dont have sea so cant comment) you really need to have utsusemi to keep from being an MP sink.

[Macht]

Re: thf without nin sub

The THF/NINs proficeny to me seems to come into effect more around the 55s range and higher were some of the mobs players go for have really high run speeds. Otherwise before that the difference in their capability to pull a mob is indistinguishable, to that respect before reaching that point were Utsusemi helps out THF/WAR actually has better power to contribute to faster fights.

So if you are looking to get THF/WAR to 37 to use as a sub then THF/WAR should work perfectly. The thing is you can factor out the numbers all you like, the hard part is fixing a poor mind set. Poor mind sets run rampant in MMORPG games so it is a difficult task to guess how that'll work out.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: thf without nin sub

Like macht said, you can factor in numbers all you want, but it's the mindset. . . myself, on the other-hand. . . I use both, because with the TP floor of 5% from 150Delay weapon, taking into consideration that 60Delay = 1 second, THF/NIN actually BENEFIT from DW, unlike many jobs that are merely being detrimental. WAR/NIN, ofr example, isn't really viable, from a practical standpoint, until 50, and necessary at 55 with Multi-Hit WS like Rampage and Mistral. That's a different post tho ._.

THF/NIN is the most versatile SJ, and Viper Bite is a 2 hit WS, being a 3 hit if you have a sub weapon, easily making up for the attack loss by lack of Berserk. IDK, haven't leveled THF, but I have a rl friend who's lvled THF and NIN to 75 and fully merited both out.

THF/NIN is more than just "looking cool", I'm sorry Aegina. A lot of ppl would flame you for that ^^ just a fair warning.