so I've noticed...

[ReisII]

Ive noticed that before TA, when you just have sa from 15-30, that everyone hates on dagger because it's so gimp. h2h is still so much stronger than sword or dagger, but regardless, the sword v. dagger debate is something that I did try out.

I was fighting mandy's in yuhtun. and yhoator, and what I found was, dagger was consistantly doing more on WS's, and sword was hitting more on regular SA. On shadowstitch and.or viperbite, I was hitting for almost 20-30 more consitantly than fastblade. I was quite perplexed by this, and what I could only come up with was: because dagger is a higher skill, thus it should technically hit harder, I figured SA took that into consideration for the WS, where as sword is ten points behind, and on WS it was weaker.

my gear was:
E-pin = +3 dex
LL- +3 dex
2x balance- +4 dex
Federation knifes- +2 acc +5 attack
spike nec- +3 dex +3 str
wonder mits- +3 str
beetle earring +1 2x- +6 attack

I honestly don't know why that would happen when everyone says dagger blows..but I was doing a nice 170-190 with ws..where normal sa was 100-120 and swords normal sa was about 120-130 but ws didn't breach 140-150 (was using mithran scim)

then I was taru thf 28 (am 38 now) but I just found that very interesting. I would of liked to parser it, but I forgot ; ;. But those damage hits are the norm for then.

EDIT: was using meat miths too.

[Caspian]

Pre-30 what weapon skill were you using with dagger to get 170? No dagger ws's stack with SA so how were you getting those numbers with a dagger? Your sword numbers sound about right, but I dont ever remember hitting just a straight dagger ws for that much.

[Taskmage]

Different WSes get damage bonuses from different stats. I believe Fast Blade's primary component is STR, while Viper Bite gets a boost from DEX. As a Taru THF your DEX is probably much more notable that your STR, so that would explain the damage difference.

The reason nobody likes dagger BEFORE Viper Bite is Wasp Sting, Gust Slash, and Shadowstitch don't add any physical damage to the attack, which means if you SA with those WS it won't add any more damage than it would to a normal attack. Fast Blade and Combo are all physical damage, so they work with SA. Now that you have Viper Bite, dagger is your best weapon.

[Caspian]

Not only do they not add physical dmg, they dont stack period. If you activate SA then use one of those ws's, it wont go off with SA. It will use your ws and your next normal hit will use SA.

[ReisII]

actually... wasp sting..and shadow stitch both stack with sa ..lol..soo...you can argue with me all you want, but try it yourself..

[Nameless]

Shadowstitch most definetly stacks as I was using it in Altep recently. W/o SATA it does a measly 50ish damage. But w/ SATA I can reach nearly 300. Maybe I'll take pictures of the difference later...

[ReisII]

and thank you

but could someone answer my question, or offer some tips..


(when I had sata, shadow stitch was doing around 400 on VT mandy's...I think I have screen shots of it..I'll have to dig them out. so it definately stacks...wasp and shadow aren't elemental ws.s

[Caspian]

Last time I tried stacking them was over a year ago and I couldnt get wasp sting + SA to work. Think I only tried it once and everyone and their dog swore to me it was futile b/c no dagger ws would stack with SA until VB. Since it seems that Shadowbind stacks with SA then I would guess its the difference in skill ratings that makes the difference in dmg. I guess I was wrong (and wasnt trying to start an argument, just everything you were saying was in exact opposite if everything I was told by thfs at the time). Fast blade is supposed to be twice your normal attack, so if Shadowbind does more than twice your normal atk that would probably play a part in it. (I think I only used shadowbind once ever when I was playing thf).
What lvl were you when you saw the difference b/w the ws's + SA or SATA of each weapon? (You mentioned VB and doing 400 dmg on a VT which I didnt think was possible w/o TA)

[ibroyles]

SA + Wasp Sting do stack as I recall, but it didn't seem to me like it gets much of a bonus from stacking. Just a little bit better than your average SA it seemed. I just stuck with Fast Blade until Viper Bite, never really had a desire to go H2H although I've seen some very powerful hits with SATA+Combo.

[Spider-Dan]

Comparing Fast Blade, Shadowstitch and Wasp Sting, the damage should be in about that order, first to last (not including the poison damage from Wasp Sting, which is unknown).

Fast Blade has the best secondary modifiers (STR*0.2, DEX*0.2), is two hits, and will likely have a higher base DMG weapon. In addition, Fast Blade's damage scales up with more TP, whereas Shadowstitch and Wasp Sting only receive increased bind/poison duration.

Shadowbind comes in next; it has a secondary modifier of CHR*0.3, which (while certainly unimpressive) is better than Wasp Sting's total lack of any secondary modifier at all.

The reason why people switch to Viper Bite at LV33 is not really raw damage, but more for consistency. Both Combo and Fast Blade have more raw damage potential than VB through at least the mid 40s (flying mobs aside), but VB has very reliable, consistent damage.

The fact that you get to use your A rank weapon (instead of D or E rank) is also significant. Of course, with the introduction of sushi, the question as to whether or not Fast Blade is actually better than Viper Bite post-33 merits some examination.

[ReisII]

thanks for all your replies. I wish I could find those screens of this, but can't . I could always just test it out some other time.

Shadow definately does more than wasp, and although I'm sure FB does do more, I think over all, I hit more, and more consistantly with dagger, so I believe that dagger still, would be better over sword. Although, I'm sure sword is as strong, I found myself missing all to much with it.

[LordBiGGs]

they must have changed what SA stacks with, because when i was lvl'ing thf about a year and 1/2 ago, only physical weapon skills stacked and gust slash and shadowstitch didnt work. i somewhat recently lvl'd thf from 25-37 and i was definitely out damaging other thf's my lvl on regular attacks and WS's. around 30ish my SATA fast blade was getting up to 450 or so damage, broke 500 a few times. although once i got viper bite, i was out damaging other thf's who were using that too. it was probably a lot of the gear, i had all the best as opposed to some new thf's just having standard gear, but still...i never tried using H2H, but it seems like it would be really good considering combo is a good WS and fast blade, and early dagger ws's suck.

[Spider-Dan]

Shadowstitch is (and always has been) a physical WS. Gust slash is not, though.

[Nameless]

Originally posted by LordBiGGs
they must have changed what SA stacks with, because when i was lvl'ing thf about a year and 1/2 ago, only physical weapon skills stacked and gust slash and shadowstitch didnt work. i somewhat recently lvl'd thf from 25-37 and i was definitely out damaging other thf's my lvl on regular attacks and WS's. around 30ish my SATA fast blade was getting up to 450 or so damage, broke 500 a few times. although once i got viper bite, i was out damaging other thf's who were using that too. it was probably a lot of the gear, i had all the best as opposed to some new thf's just having standard gear, but still...i never tried using H2H, but it seems like it would be really good considering combo is a good WS and fast blade, and early dagger ws's suck.

I can't seem to understand why my SATA WS's never even touch the 400s. At most they do high 300s. I have all the best gear I could have (+22 dex, +9 AGI at level 32) but I've never gone that high before. Also I've never seen another THF go that high before. I was fighting beetles in Altep 30-32 the other night, so it is possibly because they have high defense? I was using a Mithran Scimitar for the +3 dex, but it has the same DMG as a Bastok sword (the name escapes me right now...). I eat Mithkabobs, but that should only help my damage...

[ReisII]

when you fight mandy's and bats in the high 20's early 30's you'll notice daggers do more. I've noticed that beetles have a resist to dagger, as my ws's usually do (normally) 380-430 with viperbite (a bit higher on flying mobs), but on beetles, they suck out at about 330-350. SO that might be why. I believe it works the same for sword as well.

They have an affinity for most bladed weapons.

Rhino guard is a killer, so is cocoon. But once you ge to CN, and then back to gustav with gobs, your ws's or rather, SATA will show normally too. Also, increase your agl. DEX is good, but so is AGL. your agl is pretty low, meaning the bonus from TA won't be as good.

I usually switch out to beetle +1 2x for +3 attack and battle gloves, then before ws and sata I switch back to drones (or genin, when I was 30-34) and my taru wonder mitts for +3 str.