Dual Wield for THF

[Cali]

As some of you may know, Dual wielding a sword and dagger gives Fast Blade an extra hit, a katana and a sword gives Blade:Rin an extra hit... How about THF? Dagger Dagger give an extra hit to any WS at all?

How do you test the extra hit? Just look at your TP gained after using the WS, it's even easier now with multi-hit WS nerf. I could test it out on my own, but I'd prefer to have an answer before I spend my money on the THF gears... so.. sorry for asking any THF to experimenting this for me..

My THF is only 22 >.<;

Thanks in advance.

Edit:
Question 2:
I am planning to have a macro for SATA on its own, with a wait and /p SATA ready; a macro for SATA WS; and a macro to tell the skillchain partner(s) that they can start skillchain.... is that good enough? Do I need more macro?

[Tokitoki]

Fast Blade is always 2 hits, Retsu is always 2 hits, Viper Bite is always 2 hits... I dunno what you're looking for :sweat:
For second question, i dont even bother with the /p Ready cr*p. Its really just spam and you use it at beginning, WS, and possible once inbetween depending on lvl. The ready stuff isnt nessecary, just make a SA/TA and an SA/TA/WS macro. For low lvls keep alerts in both, for higher lvls you dont need an alert in the plain SA/TA macro.

[Lmnop]

when a warrior uses Rampage, it hits up to 5 times. When a war/nin uses Rampage, it hits 6 times. I believe this is what you're referring to? If it's true in the first place about the extra hit, then yes, thf's Viper Bite will hit 3 times, etc. However, this will be a very small hit. just like a normal swing. I'd doubt you would even gain Trick Attack bonus to damage. An extra 5 damage is damage though.

[Tokitoki]

>.>

I have both VB and Dancing Edge... With dancing edge i get the max amount of TP for 5 hits, never any more. For VB i dont get any more TP than 2 hits... Ive never even heard of this before

[DelennFFXI]

* Dual Wield provides an extra normal hit
at full TP gain (usually 5). Therefore, my full Dancing Edge returns 5 + (4x1) + 5 for 14 TP (provided the mob is still alive).

* For a good party, you only need two /p macros
One, /p (| Sneak Attack |) X --------> TP=<tp>.
Two, /p (| Sneak Attack |) O (| Ready to Start Skillchain |).
More /p's are usually unnecessary and just add to battle spam.

* Fast Blade is 2 hits

* Blade: Retsu is 2 hits

* Viper Bite is 1 hit
with a 2x attack value multiplier

You can check yourself with TP versus Too Weak mobs to mitigate accuracy concerns.

Hope that helps,

[guyincorporated]

It is true. Dual-wield DE should get you 10TP minimum (1/5 hits = 5tp, plus and additional 5tp for the bonus hit).

Single-hit DE gives 9tp maximum (5tp for first hit, 4 tp for 4 extra hits).

[guyincorporated]

Originally posted by DelennFFXI

You can check yourself with TP versus Too Weak mobs to mitigate accuracy concerns.

Hope that helps,

Note that if you finish off the mob with your weaponskill, you don't get the extra 5tp from the 2nd swing.

[DelennFFXI]

Hmm... I'll double check the extra hit idea the next time I log in with 2x Archer's Knives against Batallia Downs tigers (I shouldn't be able to one shot them... I think).

There's the possibility of a an attack sneaking in during the long Dancing Edge animation to add unexpected TP.

[DelennFFXI]

Originally posted by guyincorporated
Note that if you finish off the mob with your weaponskill, you don't get the extra 5tp from the 2nd swing.

Hence the "(provided the mob is still alive)."

Archer's Knives are 11 dmg. Hopefully that'll help keep the mob alive >.>

[Cali]

What should I use though? I was thinking Dagger + Sword(for better damage, and I think dagger + sword look nicer >.< ), but I never seen any THF go by that combo, does Dagger + Dagger add the extra hit too?

Sorry for mixing up Rin and Retsu, haven't played NIN since it got to lv19, you know, the cost thing >.>;

Edit: Use Onion dagger to reduce damage? :spin:

[kuroitsuru]

well from 24-33 it's nice to main hand sword and off hand dagger so that you can use SATA Fast Blade (very powerful whereas dagger ws arent so strong until Viper Bite). Keeping dagger in the offhand allows you to keep it skilled up so you can get Viper Bite right away when you reach 33. The problem is THF has a horrible skill rating with sword (a D I believe). This brings up a lot of concerns with accuracy, so at 33 I would recommend switching to double dagger if you're going to continue dual weilding.

I personally switched to thf/war @33 for the berserk because the dual weild 1 trait does not make your attacks faster. I did not feel the small bonuses from an extra weapon would benefit me more than the small increase in str, vit, and hp from warrior and the berserk JA. I have heard that at 46 it's worth bringing back dual weild for 2x bone knife +1 (+5 acc and +5 atk each). I stayed with /war and am currently level 55. At 50 you would get the dual weild 2 trait which DOES lower the delay 15%, but I static with a bard so gaining tp isn't much of an issue, I prefer the higher dmg that /war provides.

I'm working on my ninja right now though (level 15 currently) because I will need it for pulling faster mobs like raptors and toramas who will hit me no matter how good my pull was. I am hoping to get my hands on a hornet needle to use in the off hand when dual weilding (150 delay) to make my attacks as fast as possible.

[Mithrael]

I'm about 98% certain Duel Weild does not add an extra hit.

Normal TP gain from a weapon skill is:

Normal_TP + Additional_Hits


when you are using duel weild, tp gain is:

Normal_TP * 2 + (Additional_Hits - 1)


Source:

"An issue concerning the accumulation of TP with weapon skills that consist of multiple strikes (i.e. Combo, Penta Thrust, etc.) has been corrected.

TP will be accumulated as usual for that weapon type on the first strike (first two strikes for hand-to-hand attacks or when wielding two weapons), with each subsequent strike accumulating 1 TP.
Accordingly, enemies who are the targets of multiple-strike weapon skills will only gain TP from the first strike (first two strikes for hand-to-hand attacks or when wielding two weapons).
Also, all elemental weapon skills, except for Starlight and Moonlight (which affect only the wielder or party members), will now accumulate TP when used."

http://www.playonline.com/comnewsus/200404226037.html

What delay dagger are you using delenn?

[Ixaera]

When you dual wield with a multi-hit weaponskill, the first hit is actually BOTH weapons hitting, so you get tp back from the first hit as if a regular two-hit attack round had gone, and then 1% per remaining hit.

When I dual wield my dagger/sword, I get 10% tp back per attack round. When I hit DE with this combo (or with dagger/dagger, yes) I receive 14% tp back. If DE finishes the mob off before the final hit, I still get 10+ tp back so long as both the first hits land.

You will only get less than 10% back if one of the first hits misses. (Though this can sometimes be deceiving as triple attack can proc during DE -- I have gotten as much as 18% back from it on a too weak Yagudo.) Be careful when paying attention to DE return tp as if the mob hits you, you will receive tp from that also, so take it into account (and remember ninja and monk type mobs will give 1% to you per hit while other will give 2% due to subtle blow).

This does not appear to add any significant damage to the weaponskills in my experience.

[DelennFFXI]

Originally posted by Mithrael
I'm about 98% certain Duel Weild does not add an extra hit.

Normal TP gain from a weapon skill is:

Normal_TP + Additional_Hits


when you are using duel weild, tp gain is:

Normal_TP * 2 + (Additional_Hits - 1)

Sounds like we're both agreeing here. The extra hit (if there is, I haven't had time to test recently), is a normal hit, and not part of the WS.

Originally posted by Mithrael
What delay dagger are you using delenn?

Corsair's Knife (Dmg: 21, Delay: 206, Attack +10)
and
Garuda's Dagger (Dmg: 19, Delay: 183, Agi +3, Attack +7, Add. Effect: Silence)

If my math is correct, my per hit delay is 165.325*, which should be comfortably under the 5 TP floor. Hornetneedle might be nice, but I like the Attack +7.



* Per Hit Delay Calculation: 0.85(206 + 183) / 2 = 165.325

[Spider-Dan]

Viper Bite is one hit (even though the animation clearly shows two). Viper Bite returns the same TP as Wasp Sting; one hit's worth of TP when single wielded, two hits worth of TP when dual wielded (if mob doesn't die on first hit).

The corollary of the above is that Dual Wield always adds a hit to WSes (or at least, physical WSes). I'm 99% sure that for a normal SA, if you are Dual Wielding, both of your hits are guaranteed (you can see this easily with SA vs. Utsusemi). Logically speaking, this should hold true for WSes as well, which would mean that SATAVB should return 10% every time. I haven't tested that part yet, though.

I did a test to prove the first three statements quite a while ago. Pics:

Single wield Wasp Sting (5% TP return):


Single wield Viper Bite (5% TP return):


Another single wield Viper Bite (still 5%):


Dual Wield Wasp Sting (10% return):


Dual Wield Viper Bite (10% return):