Attack or STR for SATA?

[Saygram]

I've heard that Attack was more beneficial to a THF than DEX, AGI, or STR, so I went nuts about attack for the longest time. I've had more than 60+ Attack with my equipment (Viking Shield, Assault Jerkin, Amemit+1, etc) back in the day. Then, I heard that STR and DEX were more useful for a THF than Attack, because they enhance our specialty SATA the most. So then off I went with the two Ruby Rings, and other stuff.

Now, I'm just comfused, because I'm hearing that Attack plays a big part in SATA also...

I need to figure out which stats are most beneficial to SATA or a THF in general...I'm not sure whether to have Assault Jerkin in my SATA macro or the Blue Cotehardie or even if I should go back to WAR sub for Berserk and Warcry. @_@

[Help me out!]

[Voila!]

I'm sure both Str and Atk affect it beneficially, but the multipliers for Sneak Attack is Dex and Agi for Trick Attack. You'll want to stack on those.

If you sub thief, Dex and Agi wont affect SA or TA at all.

[Omena]

DEX and AGI are what score the big numbers for plain SATA.
Obviously STR and ATK also help, but DEX and AGI are better. For normal attacks you'll want other stats such as ACC, ATK and STR instead. I noticed upping ACC and ATK seems to improve Dancing Edge quite a lot. Must be because it is multi hit and four of the hits can miss. I haven't got Shark Bite quite yet, so I don't know wether I should concentrate on ATK or DEX/AGI on that one. At least it is single hit so ACC will not be needed.

[Mithrankittycat]

shark bite is 2 hits.
The optimal balance between accuracy, dex, str, agi, attack... unknown ;3

[DelennFFXI]

First off, as a disclaimer, SE has not verified these equations, and most likely never will unless they have a good reason...



Basic Equation:
dmg = A + B * C
A = (your str) - (mob vit)
B = effective weapon dmg (add dex for SA, add agi for TA)
C = rate multiplier = [(your atk) / (mob def)]^3



Equation Notes:

• A is capped. (see references for details)
• B is the only uncapped term (hence dmg/dex/agi always helps. How much is another issue)
• C is capped between 0 and 2 for normal hits, 1 to 3 for critical hits (including SA)
• C has multiple random components that have been omitted for simplicity. (see references for details)

Key points:

• SATA makes your effective damage monstrous for one hit. For example, I have dex76+20 and agi68+13 in SATADE mode. My Corsair's Knife is normally dmg21, but for one hit it becomes 21+76+20+68+13 = 198 damage! (yes, stronger than the strongest scythe in the game).
• SA also boosts the rate multiplier by 1, allowing SATA to always deal some damage, regardless of monster defense (this is also because A also has a lower bound (negative) if the mob's vit is extremely high)
• Boosting C helps more for higher values of B, since it's a product. Therefore atk is very important for SATA, unless you're capped

Here are my preferences (and reasoning), which seem to be spot on in my experience.

For SATA: atk > dex > agi > str > acc
atk is crucial as long as you're not capped. dex/agi add more SATA dmg per point than str. SATA is a guaranteed hit, making acc pointless.

For TP Gain: acc > str > atk > dex > agi
acc is crucial for tp gain. str provides a roughly linear boost per hit (thf will not cap this on IT mobs). atk increases dmg, but not by much due to crappy base dagger dmg. dex increases hit rate/critical hit percentage. agi helps you evade/reduces crit hit percentage, which shouldn't matter since you shouldn't be taking hits.

For SATADE: acc = atk > dex > agi > str
acc is important since DE is a 5 hit weaponskill. Each successive hit after the first is weak, although still substantial. atk seriously boosts the damage of the first hit. dex/agi add more SATA dmg per point than str.

For SATASB: atk > acc > dex > agi > str
(Just a theory, since I don't have it yet)
atk > acc since Shark Bite is only two hits. acc damage bonus is still significant (should be 100+ dmg). dex/agi add more SATA dmg per point than str.



Notes:

• Remember that enough of a lower ranked attribute can overpower a higher ranked attribute. For example:
  
  Lust Dagger (lv51, str-1, dex-1, agi+7) is still good, even though dex > agi (very minor difference imho)
  
  I used it as my offhand until I could afford a 2nd Corsair's Knife.

Hope that helps.



References:

Informative Damage Calculation Thread here: Major props to Mithrael
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...threadid=40812

Damage Equation (and investigation details in Japanese)
http://www.moonlight.gr.jp/~el/ffxi/ab_calc.html.en

[DelennFFXI]

Also, skepticism is expected (I know I had quite a bit at first). I encourage people to try this out for themselves, but remember that caps exist. Testing on Too Weak mobs isn't indicative of XP mobs.

FWIW, for Too Weak mobs:

• Pump str until A caps
• Pump atk until C caps
• Pump dex/agi since they're uncappable for SATA
• Pump acc if it's an issue, but chances are good it's not.

Regarding subs, I keep both leveled, but have primarily used /nin in the past and /war now. Going back to /war is refreshing, however I'll switch back to /nin in a heartbeat if I'm pulling fast mobs, dealing with AoE effects (stun, etc), lagging on TP, or soloing difficult mobs.



As for more "concrete" examples. I deal ~690-~1220 SATADE damage on Sand Cocktrices. With an average in the mid to high 800s. The value flutuates wildly depending on Berserk, Minuet IV, and Warcry.

[guyincorporated]

I'm still skeptical. When I first read the damage calcluation thread, it rocked my world and I totally rethought all my gear. Bought sun rings, the biggest gigas bracelets possible, etc...

If the formula were accurate, every point of str I add (below the cap) would give me a flat +1 to damage, but adding 15 strength most definitely did NOT bump up my damage by 15. Maybe 2 or 3, maybe. Also, even against the easiest of easy mobs, my damage still fluctuated a bit, even though my rate even after a possible -.5 would have still been greater than 2.

I think that the formula is on the right track, but it is not perfect yet.

[Saygram]

Hmmm...Ok then, I'll just stick with the Scorp Harness >> Assault Jerkin for SATA. The gear I have now is really quite balanced for EXP PTs. I have a nice balanced mix of STR, DEX, Acc, and Atk. AGI is garbage as a Trick Attack Multiplier though, so I limited that to +4 only lol (I'm a Mithra, so I can do that, punks ^.~).

Now, I just can decide on the right combination of weapons (Dual Wield)...

Speed (With Yummy DEX): Misericorde+1 - Hornetneedle

Power: Gully+1 (or Harpe =P) - Corsair's Knife

Stun Mania!: Stun Kukri+1 x2

[Help me out] ... again ; ;

[DelennFFXI]

I'll agree with the not perfect comment, but since it provides a relative ranking of attributes, I still find it useful

[DelennFFXI]

Off the top of my head, each configuration depends on the situation:

• Speed for TP gain, especially when SCing with rangers or samurai
• Power if TP gain is adequate (meaning you're not the last one to get 100% TP)
• Stun Kukri+1 x2 for slow attacking mobs, making your tank and healer happy

Randomness: I want Scorpion Harness and Assault Jerkin ; ; (even though I can't wear it... yet!)

My immediate shopping list includes Bomb Core (still haven't bought it yet, messing with macros) and Viking Shield, followed by a 2nd Archer's Ring for my war (excessive, probably) and finally crafting...

[Lmnop]

first off, good job Delenn with the easier-to-understand formula. And good job on not getting the numbers mixed up as oh so many have before. 2nd: guyincorporated, I was under the impression that the random element fired after the rate. your example would be like a rate of 4 before cap -.5 = 3.5 which would get knocked down to 2.0 no matter what. but I'm thinking: your rate of 4 gets knocked down to 2, then add the random (which is still capped) so you can only go below your rate. but what do I know? the formulas do seem rather sound though apparently they take a slight twist 60+ as all equations do. oh, and there's still an unknown the author put in. We all use our ^3 estimate but who knows?

[guyincorporated]

Right, but I remember a post where the author was speaking to that rate reduction issue and said something to the extent of:

"I know my damage is capped because I do 131 damage to a level -2 tunnel worm, I do 131 to a level 15 goblin butcher, and I do 131 damage to a level 29 amber quadav."

It has been a while since I've re-checked it. I suppose it is possible (but I don't think I'm wrong) that he was talking about ranged weapons or critical hit damage, which DO consistantly cap out damage on too weak-- mobs.

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Edit: regarding the stun kukri's: how often does the stun go off? Some of these "additional effect" weapons are so lame. Look at the fire/flame swords, you get 1d6 fire damage every 100-200 swings or so? please. Fortunately the base damage makes up for it, much like the kukris. But now this is twice I've heard people reference their stunning abilities, so it is making me think that it isn't nearly as random as some weapons.

[Omena]

If your base weapon damage during SATA is: Weapon damage + DEX + AGI, wouldn't that mean all daggers are almost equal? I could use double Bone Knives +1 and get 2x +5 acc and 5+ atk with only a minimal loss in base damage.

That would also be a serious blow to the usefullness of the new Harpe and Pereus' Harpe, since they only have insane base damage and no stat boosts.

[Archibaldcrane]

Regarding the usefulness of stun kukri - I was using one of these in my dual weild at lvl 70, fighting IT spiders and flies in Dragon's aery for xp (not a bad place to xp either for thf - 11 spider webs after around 10k xp - 77k gil on midgardsormr) - the Stun Kukri would activate Stun around 2-3 times per fight. If you dual wielded, obviously that would double. It also has pretty decent dmg, and the +1 has ok delay. It's interesting, but not as good as say a daylight dagger at 70.

[DelennFFXI]

Originally posted by Omena
If your base weapon damage during SATA is: Weapon damage + DEX + AGI, wouldn't that mean all daggers are almost equal? I could use double Bone Knives +1 and get 2x +5 acc and 5+ atk with only a minimal loss in base damage.

For SATA, it seems to be. I still do very nice damage with SATA even bare-handed, with a weak sword, etc.

Originally posted by Omena
That would also be a serious blow to the usefullness of the new Harpe and Pereus' Harpe, since they only have insane base damage and no stat boosts.

There are still 18+ swings in between where extra damage will benefit. Point being, extra base damage always applies. SATA doesn't

I'd take Harpe over a dmg21 dagger with dex+4 agi+4 anyday.

Edit: Just to be clear, although non-SATA damage is low (~20s on Darters for me), it still adds up to be significant.

Aside: I'm still debating when to retire my Corsair's Knife (which is still going strong). ie. when the monster base defense becomes high enough to make base damage more effective than +10 attack.