Why the new Hide+SA is useless (with pictures!)

[Narru]

Originally posted by meboz
I wasn't having problems using Hide on sound aggro mobs.

(Skeles for instance)

The only thing that was killing Hide for me was scent trackers.

Hmm... it might be just too soon to say anything at this point really. Further testing will need to be done.

- Need to test Hide vs sound aggro mobs with and without Deodorizer.
- Need to test Hide vs sound aggro mobs with and without Silent Oils.
- I want to test SA+TA+Hide+WS.
- Want to see if you really need to disengage before doing Hide for it to work (heard some reports that you do, heard others that you don't)

Anyone else think of any other scenerios that need to be tested?

[John Doe III]

AS I MENTIONIED NARRU..-_-

If your solo farming with other people and it's like a beat to the punch range who ever get's first farming. Tigers, tabors, so forth. Say you use your range weapon to beat out someone thats following behind you and you get the mob. You can easily do sneak + hide --> WS and get 900-1000 off. Which is wayy better than 500 solo. Get what i'm saying?

[meboz]

Some people don't realize this...

There is a difference between aggro and tracking.

I believe scent is the only type of tracking that can be directly cancelled.
Try aggroing an orc in E.Ron and run through water...
Ever wonder why you often "lose" crawlers and crabs while pulling them in Boyahda Tree when running through the pools? (If you are an excellent long range puller that is.)


From what I have read... I don't think anything actually aggros to scent... it's just that many track it.

In General...
Spiders and Bats aggro to sound... but no scent tracking.
Skeles aggro to low health and sound... but no scent tracking...
Bombs aggro to sight and magic... but no scent tracking.
Gobs Yags and Cockatrices aggro to sight.. but no scent tracking.
Orcs and Beetles aggro to sight.. and they have scent tracking.
Quadavs Anticans Raptors Crabs and Crawlers aggro to sound... and they have scent tracking.
etc.

When soloing... you have to cancel sound and scent as needed before using Hide for it to work.

When in a PT... you can get away with only cancelling scent as needed... you usually don't have to cancel sound (from my testing).

The scent issue is settled IMO.
I still have some questions as to what conditions allow me to have hide work on sound aggro mobs in PT. (But I think kittycat pretty much anwsered that in her post above.)

[Spider-Dan]

meboz, I've been having similar thoughts all day. I'm going to do some testing and make a post later on. But basically, my theory is this:

Hide's hate-cancelling ability has nothing to do with sight or sound, but scent only.

As we all know, when used outside of battle, Hide gives invisibility effect. The reason why Hide works flawlessly on sight-only-aggro mobs is because Hide cancels the hate (they can't track by scent), and you are subsequently invisible (they can't see you).

Against a sound (no scent) mob, if you were solo and tried to Hide, you would "succeed" because the mob can't smell you; however, you'd immediately get aggroed if you're within sound range. I'm not sure if the game registers this as a "spotted Hide" or a successful Hide, followed by immediate aggro, attack, and Hide cancel. (I'll confirm with tests tonight) Also, against a no-scent sound mob that normally won't aggro you, Hide should succeed every time (this explains reports of Hide working vs. bones when tank has aggro).

This also explains old reports I've seen of solo Hide working against undead if you Flee away first.

If all of the above is true, then this puts Deodorize status in a whole new light. As you pointed out, I don't think there is any mob in the game that aggros by scent, which makes the Deodorize spell/potions fairly useless... until now. THF may be required to carry Deodorizers on them for this new tactic.

This also puts a completely new spin on one note in the update:

"The types of weather that hinder a monster's ability to track by scent have been adjusted."

[Spider-Dan]

The short story is, Deodorize will let you Hide+SA on any mob type in party, if you don't have aggro.

I'm writing an in-depth post on Hide mechanics right now.

[brandan12]

Ok, if you have any hate on the mob whatsoever! it will not work if the mob is sound or scent. If you pull the mob and miss the ranged attack, hide won't work. YOu need to have someone else pull, and before engaging or getting any hate santa and hide.

It's not useless, you just don't know how to use it.

[MCfuzz]

imo, SE added this ability mainly for ballista. this makes fuidama much easier in a PvP situation. before the patch if you were ballista-ing and you saw two melees get infront and behind you, you could tell that a fuidama was coming and simply move a lot to avoid massive damage. now 2 people can be duking it out in PvP then out of nowhere, BAM 700 damage. that could be why it's so hard to make this work in a PT, it was sqaure-enix's intention for this not to be used while exping.

I can see one good time to use this in an exp PT. it sounds like you can not pull or it will fail, sometimes there are no other good pullers, in that case it seems "Hidedama" is more trouble to use than it is worth.

here is my method:
If someone else pulls and mages or other melees take the hate off of your tricking partner before you attack(WS or normal) then the tank is forced to voke. normally you either wasted your SATA or you could fuidama off of a normal melee. the latter will give the same damage but doesn't help THFs manage hate(which is what they are made for). so instead of wasting your hate control abilities you can throw hide on and still use your SATA effectively.

I haven't tried this out yet, because im in the process of leveling all my sub jobs, so im sorry if i have gotten the facts wrong.if something is wrong, just tell me.

[PhoR]

john, either you're lying about getting this hidden attack to work with ws, or i have some seriously retarded lag.

phor readies viper bite. <-- that sentence pulls me out of hide..
and that sentence happens before I actually use my ws. And the ws damage does NOT stack with sneak since I was not hidden when the ws hit. (does it work with dancing and not viper?)

tried it 6 seperate times. twice when I didn't even have any aggro.

also, ANY attack after you use sneak will take it off you. didn't try deoderize yet. is it the same? so having mages cast sneak on you before hidden attack is not even feasible.. you'd have to disengage and wait for a mage to cast on you, then reengage to attack.
don't thieves bring enough added annoyance to a party without the mages having to watch for when our hidden attack is ready?

i think this was a good idea that was implimented very poorly and not tested at all beforehand. i'm hoping they tweak it a little more soon.

[Macht]

Originally posted by PhoR
john, either you're lying about getting this hidden attack to work with ws, or i have some seriously retarded lag.

phor readies viper bite. <-- that sentence pulls me out of hide..
and that sentence happens before I actually use my ws. And the ws damage does NOT stack with sneak since I was not hidden when the ws hit. (does it work with dancing and not viper?)

tried it 6 seperate times. twice when I didn't even have any aggro.

also, ANY attack after you use sneak will take it off you. didn't try deoderize yet. is it the same? so having mages cast sneak on you before hidden attack is not even feasible.. you'd have to disengage and wait for a mage to cast on you, then reengage to attack.
don't thieves bring enough added annoyance to a party without the mages having to watch for when our hidden attack is ready?

i think this was a good idea that was implimented very poorly and not tested at all beforehand. i'm hoping they tweak it a little more soon.

You should not make assumptions of a feature being made for a purpose you believe it to be for. Doing this "hidedama" or if I have it right should be named Fukuzaidamasu (Fukuzai = "Being Hidden" and dama/damasu = "to trick, to decieve") may not of been added with intent to being used in an exp setup.

Don't ever make such an assumption like that, it may be possible to get it to work in that situation but you'll have to work to figure it out and get it down right. As for disengaging when doing this trick it's intent is so that you don't auto-attack the monster while setting up to do this. You want the attack to hit the monster with the effects active if auto-attack kicks in while doing the sequence (which often times it will occur) then the attack is messed up.

[guyincorporated]

For what it is worth, I can confirm that hidedama works very well vs skeletons in a party setting.

Was pulling keydroppers in garlaige with a skillup party:

>60pal> <mob< <57monk< <57thief<

The monk would start the skillchain with raging fists, about half the time the mob would turn around, so I would do my SA macro, my TA macro, my Hide macro, then backhand blow macro and it would still land for full damage.

I was such a happy camper.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by PhoR
john, either you're lying about getting this hidden attack to work with ws, or i have some seriously retarded lag.

phor readies viper bite. <-- that sentence pulls me out of hide..

The WS itself is still Hide-powered. I did a SATAHideVB yesterday from the front for ~400 damage. (goblin) That has to be SA-powered.

Look at it this way. In order for Hide+SA to work, you have to be able to autoattack (which cancels Hide) and get the benefit of Hide on that attack, right? Otherwise, Hide+SA could not work.

When you do Hide+SA+WS, the "readies" message is the attack. At the time you initiated the WS, you had all three effects (Hide, SA, TA) active. The WS uses them all up.

[Fuuko]

Well, this new feature works with Fafnir... and he has true sight :sweat:

[tetsuoyf19]

With that in mind, what kind of /wait are you putting between your sata and /hide. and between /hide and ws

If someone wants to share their tested macro I'd appreciate it so I don't have to waste a few trys in my next party.

btw... how much is deodorize by the stack anyhow.