Thf/rdm

[Rift]

Hey, i was wondering what anyone elses thoughts on a thief/redmage combo are. Originally these were the two classes I wanted to be. I thought about a combination in beta, but I dismissed it figuring redmage wouldnt help out thief and thief certainly wouldnt help out a redmage.

However, now im thinking about it again. Im only level 13 thf but in beta I got to 17, so I soon realised that thieves deal major damage with sneak attack, but then have a minute where they dont do much. Obviously in short battles this wont mean much, as you could probably get two sneak attacks off in a row if timed right, and then the enemy would die soon.

But in long fights, what can a thief do to help during that minute? Against tough and higher I was lucky to hit for more then 1 or 2 damage, maybe that adds up, but when my sneak attack did 60-80, the 1 or 2 seemed pointless.

So i figure as a redmage i could debuff the monster or rest for more mp (to re-debuff) during that minute. I guess my TP would fall if I rest, but i could still be useful to debuff or even backup heal a bit with the mp I do have. Ive never been in groups that really use skill chains well, so maybe the TP loss is a huge negative, but I could still be an effective debuffer without resting.

I checked the stat calculator, compared to a warrior i do lose like 1 dex and 2 strength throughout the first 50 levels (im not sure what its like after 50). Sometimes the dex is even at levels. Obviously I lose some HP, but that isnt important, and even if it was, I gain cure, so in all the HP loss would be negated.

I admit, with limited mp (at 20 i have 40 or so) i wouldnt be a decent backup curer, BUT i could properlly debuff a few enemies. I know it wouldnt help much in groups with a decent redmage present, but in cases where we have no redmage, or our redmage sees himself as a tank, healer or nuker instead of debuffer, i could come in handy.

Now, I realise many of you will reply with "be what you want" but what I want isnt really the question. Im not sure what ill end up being, im just wondering if im too optimistic about thf/rdm or maybe it is actually a pretty good combo?

**edit: i just wanted to note that I find it funny that many people in game think of redmages as backup whitemages. And here I am wondering if my thief could be a backup redmage. That makes me like third string. Backing up a back up...sweet **

[xarddrax]

Go for it,..i plan on trying it out also once my RDM hit 20 to sub to my THF
I think it would work out well especially with the "en" spells (like Enthunder , Enstone, etc..) and you can heal yourself a time or two which can keep that TP up for Viperbite when you hit lvl 33 on your THF.

[Pilsbane]

It would be great in the early levels or for soloing purposes, but as time goes on its not as good as you'd think for grouping. Not saying it "sucks" just saying WAR or NIN can give you better perks.

Your first En-weapon spell wouldn't be until 32 THF/16 RDM, and even then it would only be as powerful as what it was for a 16 RDM due to your enhancing magic level. Using En-weapon spells does not increase TP gain at all. Using a 1hand sword I get 6 tp per hit regardless if I use Enthunder or not.

Your enfeebling magic would be half what a real Redmage's is, and even as a real Redmage I still get some resists at 40+. I imagine you'd get a lot of resists only having it as a subjob with the lower enfeebling cap. I've noticed the difference between Redmage and Blackmage enfeebling caps on resists, halfing it would be even more drastic. Plus, if you don't have someone in your group that can cast enfeebling spells then you need to find a new group...

If the THF in my group kept healing for MP after fights I'd boot him from the group. So, you'd have to come up with a way to regain MP without healing. You could carry juices. Downside to juices is they don't stack, so unless you make your own you can only carry a limited supply. If you group with a 41+ Redmage you'd have refresh, but then what would be the point of having your Redmage subjob then?

[Sinzer]

RDM is honestly an awful sub, TP is your bread and butter as a THF and if you have to rest wave goodbye to it!

You would get about 7-8MP per level as RDM? So you might have 80MP at level 20/10. That will get you 10 heals, not a lot really, not compared to the extra damage you would do with a melee sub.

Also what people forget is that they should be eating food. You should be spending your cash on it. If you pay for 10K for one item that improves your DEF by 2-3 or raises dex by 1-2 then that would be 4 stacks of meat mithkabobs. 4 x 12 = 48, that is 24 whole hours of gaming with +5 STR and 21.9% extra ATK!!! Your 1 min of doing nothing, suddenly becomes one minute where you start actually hitting and you up your damage significantly.

[Rift]

hmm

I understand that TP is more important, so resting wouldnt be an option. But i honestly dont see the "youd be better off doing extra damage with a melee subclass." Maybe the stat calculators arent that acurate, but when I used it, thf/war has at max 2 more strength then a thf/rdm and 1 more dex and agility. Does this really make a big difference? Im actually asking, as I dont know for sure.

I figure it would make a big difference early levels, but thats where the thf/rdm seems to be best. However, at level 50, does the 1 or 2 difference in stats matter much? Like I said, i dont actually know, so Im actually asking. The reason I think thf/rdm would be viable where as thf/whm or thf/blm wouldnt be is that with thf/rdm you sitll get a decent amount of melee stat increases for the sub.

[xarddrax]

Those stats DONT make that much difference. I also play a BRD and have the Etude songs that raise stats by about 4 and they are worthless...so 1-2 difference wont kill ya. AND you dont always have to rest SUBing RDM. You guys do know that BRDs have Mages Ballad that can easily help regain that MP you used . Stop being such ney-sayers. Until you actually TRY playing that class, dont knock it.

[Pilsbane]

Xarddrax, don't assume we haven't tried it. I have tried subbing redmage to a melee class. I was highly dissappointed. Yes, Bard's do have Mage's Ballad at 25. But, if THF hangs in the back with the mages to get Ballad instead of the melee songs, again, I would boot them from the group.

[vXvalentine]

Well think about it, the only use woulb be cure... and if you want cure you might as well sub whm. Say you try debuffing when ur fightingin a level 30 party, it will be like a 15 RDM going up to a level 30 mob and debuffing it, most of the debuffs will be risisted. Most likely youll have a blm or a rdm in your group to debuff. Sub War, Ninja, or Ranger and youll have a much better time.

[ninvampire]

The problem with melee/mage is that having mage capped to half really hinders the usefulness of the mage sub as you get higher in levels. Bottom line is that thief is a damage-dealing class and to be useful, you need to have TP to participate in renkeis. If you're healing to regain MP (Sure at most it'd be 2-3 tics so 20-30 tp lost) you're slowing your party down.

[Rift]

ok...

Ok, i understand that the spells wouldnt be that useful. But could you tell me what major benifites id get from subbing ninja, war or ranger?

I checked war, the stat difference is minimal for my damage output, I wouldnt get increased damage till 50 and hp/defense dont mean much to a thief. And provoking would get me killed pretty quick...

so how does a warrior help?

Ninja, i havent checked. But obviously it wouldnt be for the ninja spells due to the same reason rdm spells wouldnt help. Maybe the stat difference is a lot bigger (id assumed dex and agility would see a noticable increase). Dual wield would help me equip good stat increasing daggers at the cost of my shield...

Ranger, I dont know much about. Again, I assume the dex and agility upgrades would be greater then that of a warrior. More dex here where more agility with the ninja, correct? Other then the stat increase what skills does a ranger possess that makes it a good choice?

See, the thing is, I can SEE why the spells wouldnt be that helpful and thus why a rdm would be a bad choice. However, since the rdm provides similar stat bonuses to a warrior, I cant see how its a worse choice then a warrior. Unless I wanted to provoke and tank, which would probbaly end with me dieing. Since warrior is considered a good option, how come Rdm isnt? Is it really because of the 1 or 2 difference in the stat?

Now, I can very well see how ninja and ranger could provide useful stat increases and other skills, so im not focused on them. Just on what makes warrior considered acceptable and redmage not.

Also Pilsbane, I dont know you, but knowing that youd kick so many people out of your group kinda makes me sad. Would you at least advice them to change their tactics before booting them? Id like to think people were nicer to eachother in the game.

[Sly]

From what i've seen a ninja sub, the main purpose is double daggers. Not for the damage, but the stat bonuses/effects. They also make excellent pullers because they can use blink. Dex and Agility increases never hurt either.

I sub warrior, and from what i've seen so far, I dish out a lot more damage. The mages and paladin I party with are greatful for the provoke, just in case there is a link, or something just goes wrong, I can provoke and 2hour to provide a little extra time. I love Berserk, as I notice a big difference in damage with it activated.

Berserk + Warcry + Meat Mithkabob + Sneak + Trick =

Although the en spells look good on a redmage, they don't really work the way I thought they would. Rather than making your main attack deal more damage, say if you had the elemental on that the monster was weak to, it just adds "additional damage."

(thief) hits (monster) for 25 points of damage!
Additional effect: (monster) takes 5 points of damage