Saying no to burns?

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Saying no to burns?

I don't mind a lively discussion but lets remember to keep it civil or infractions, not warnings, will be handed out.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Saying no to burns?

It's not an assumption.
Accession works with Refresh.

Ah, right. RDM/SCH. How silly of me to forget.

The rest of my point still stands on how very niche it is, though. Heck, I'm sure "let's Refresh everybody!" isn't the first thing on a RDM/SCH's mind when they think of Accession - more likely it goes like "**** Haste doesn't work with this," immediately followed by "I'd better Stoneskin everybody."

[Shirai]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Do you know why SE decided not to stack accession with Haste?

Hint:
It's not because they were scared of the summoners.
Not to block other mage jobs either.

But:

Answer here:

Accession also works on spells you cast outside your party
Scholar main would be able to single handedly keep a full alliance hasted.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Saying no to burns?

What do you mean people would abuse the shit out of that by PLing entire parties with Accession + Haste? People would never do that. Never.

[Ketaru]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Too boot they don't even let RDM's who do posses the knowledge share it with others and try to give them a helping hand, hell this website is probably the worse of the bunch. Hell even on BG people give advice on how to increase DD potential of a RDM. I have talked about it numerous times here, every time it has turned into a flame war after the initial post. With the same stupid shit every time.

People hardly talk about how to increase the DD potential of RDM here because people hardly ask how to do it here. There has been maybe 1 or 2 threads about the subject (and hardly any threads about how to make RDM a better mage); the usual responses are rather appropriate advice on what gear is available to the job. It's almost never somebody hijacking the thread about how RDM sword skillz is t3h sux and ur a n00b for doing it! Elemental staves ftw!

In general, this forum isn't a place people come to for advice. It's more of a place people come to vent ("What's your pet peeve in FFXI?" going on 461 pages) and generally talk about things that are not Final Fantasy XI-related. In all fairness, you're the one who steered the thread in the direction away from SMN to melee RDM because, from forum to forum that I've seen you post on, you just can't seem to help but sneak a comment about it in.

For the most part, I will argue with anybody who tries to say their idea of how to play RDM is the right one. Which is what you're doing here. I just don't understand your insistence on being so vocal about it since nobody here has denied that it is a perfectly viable way to play the job, especially since the direction of the game has steered in such a way that there are now much more opportunities where it is actually very appropriate to.

The whole point of the job is to be able to mold itself to fit a variety of situations. It just so happens, in 6-person parties, backline healer that is how it best suits the needs of the party. There are some RDMs I would sooner sympathize with at the loss of the job's role as an enfeebler, but you can pretty much blame colibri for that. Colibri, however, are the scapegoat of a lot of criticisms of the elements of this game being cheapened.

Maybe a long time ago I would've tried to say RDM melee is perfectly fine in parties. Too busy these days trying to prove to people that BST isn't a waste of fresh air though. At least RDM has the option to turn down an invite if the party style isn't to their liking...or the option to party at all.

[MrMageo]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Accession + refresh.
Learn it, love it and get your ass out of 2004.

Honestly, if you were a red mage in my shell, you wouldn't even pass trial with that attitude.
Itazura is still trying to be nice and I've been trying to ignore you, but can't anymore.
All the posts you make are about how much you dislike the way we play the game and how you think it should be played in your eyes.
Yet I haven't seen a single post actually showing that you know what you are talking about, and this last post of yours is all the more proof of it.

And what?! You don't want Refresh II because you are tired of cycles?

We're playing a game where group effort gets things done.
People like you only slow the rest down so;

Oh please get over yourself. /SCH is a situational subjob. It is good for exp parties, and maybe just maybe some endgame events. For the majority of content (especially now) that is either being low manned or requires 18 people (i.e. dynamis or einherjahr) small group events (such as nyzul or other assaults) it is not even comparable to the utility that /BLM or /WHM offer.




There is no best subjob for RDM so Accession is a gimmick at best. Hell I haven't even had the opportunity to use /SCH in anything but an EXP party, since I am requested 95% of the time to come as RDM/BLM to all my endgame events. So yes I still have to deal in cycles when I buff. Shocking I know.

Itazura is being nice, I didn't say he wasn't. I also don't know how long you have been posting here but that is more or less how I talk to everyone, always have probably always will. I mean no hard feelings towards him/her and he/she is entitled to their own opinion. I however lack the vocabulary to drive home my points without the need for swearing or name calling, it is a fault that I am not going to remedy anytime soon.

As for you ignoring me, there is a wonderful feature that allows you to block me, it is quite an interesting invention. If you don't want to read what I say then you can use it.

You don't know anything about me. I have no complaints really about this game, except for maybe the disgustng pigeon holing and dislike of certain jobs. Hell for nearly 4 years if you were not a RDM,BRD,COR,WAR,SAM,DRG you would wait hours on hours to get a party. Now you only need to wait hours. I call a spade a spade. A SMN who thinks they are a main healer and should still be able to BP and WP all the time is and idiot, just as stupid as a RDM/WHM who thinks they can melee and main heal. But both those people are not as stupid as the player base who expects them to b able to do everything if they want to do one thing. A SMN can not do all that an maintain MP, just as much as a RDM can't and maintain DD or buffs/debuffs it just can't be done. You are stupid if you think it can.

And what?! You don't want Refresh II because you are tired of cycles?

No I don't want refresh II because I am sick of SE looking at RDM with an eye full of disdain. If they give as a refresh that will be useful to everyone then we will not see any other beneficial ability given to us as a main job. Simply because around 1K+ MP (2.3-2.5K if you include convert as well) every 8:20 seconds is stupid. Composure + Refresh is already broken as hell.

Or the spell will be utter shit. 4-5/MP tick. nigh useless at 99 with the projection of spell costs eclipsing any practical use for using the spell on anyone but yourself. At which point /RDM for all other mages will be more beneficial over all than having a single RDM buffing all the mages. (in terms of group MP as you so well put it being a group game and all.)

Although for someone who isn't a RDM and hasn't played RDM in a high level atmosphere, you wouldn't rightly know how taxing it can be keeping a 5-6 person haste+refresh cycle going, and being expected to keep those 5-6 people alive. While possibly being required to debuff a mob. It looks awesome as a SMN always having that 3mp/tick cutting down on your perp costs, but ill tell you using 240 on haste or 240 on refresh (or in some instances 480MP on both) is stupid, especially if those mage jobs can soon give it to themselves.

The reason I don't want to see refresh 2 is not primarily because of the cycle. It is because it will need to be crazy high MP/tick to even be remotely worth casting. In which case SE will either nerf it or it will be an outrageous MP cost (60-80+) and/or RDM will not get any other major abilities due to the fact they should never ever ever ever ever run out of MP.

Or it will be something along the lines of BLU's new refresh 4/mp tick for some high MP cost (60-80) rendering it useless to cast on anybody, including yourself.

You need to learn a bit more about the job and its MP limitations before you go jumping in with 2 feet. I would lov to see you maintain a 6 person haste and refresh cycle (480 MP) and heal those people, while sleepga/ and bind/grav adds. I would love to see you do it longer than one cycle.

Also your snide comment.

Any SMN who thinks they are a main healer in my endgame shell, gets booted. They com /SCH or /RDM to events. regardless, and in LS parties they come /SCH, /RDM and BP or WP and back up heal. I don't have to preach to others how I think the game should be played, I have 45 other people give or take some, that all share a common belief on how the game should be played.

oh and for the record SAM/WAR, SAM/WAR, RDM/DNC, DNC/WAR, BRD/NIN, COR/RNG is my current static, and we get 25-30K/hr with me meleeing. So ya I clearly don't know what I am talking about. (by the way sams with 70-80% haste and 3 single handed DD's with 70% haste is kick ass)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Saying no to burns?

I can only think of one response for not having Earthen ward in your rotation wether you're playing a support or offensive role.

You're doin' it WRONG!!

LOL. While I like your attitude, I respectfully disagree with that opinion. Two examples where I can see Earthen Ward not being worthwhile:

Nuke party:
BLM x3, SCH, SMN, COR. (Pretty much everyone has Stoneskin, except maybe the COR.)

Tank party: (Lv.80)
PLD x2, BRD, SCH, SMN. (SCH will have the better Stoneskin for the tank, if it's worth the time/effort.)

Perhaps it's because I've rarely seen SMN tossed in with melees, that I don't find Earthen Ward as valuable; whenever possible, I poke and nudge SMNs into tank and nuke parties. Shining Ruby and Dream Shroud are the (non-healing) BP: Wards I'd like to see most of the time.

True. But when the heck are you only going to be Hasting one or two people?!? And don't give me any more of that "well, the SAM/loolnotNIN was doing too much damage" bullcrap you use when not casting single-target Haste on them. That's just no excuse, especially not in the case of Hastega.

1. The tank party.

The traditional tank party use some combination of RDM and/or WHM to cover Haste, protect/shell, Refresh. With next level cap, SCH and SMN can handle Haste and Refresh. At Lv.80, SMN/WHM and SCH/WHM can already do (single target) Haste, and SCH's Protect V and Shell IV are quite serviceable.

PLD/NIN
PLD/NIN
SCH/WHM
SMN//WHM
BRD/WHM

At Lv.80, a party like that can actually absorb frequent magic attacks better than the traditional PLDx2, RDM, WHM, BRD party, thanks to SCH's Accession Stoneskin and SMN's Shining Ruby. While Hastega (from a good SMN) would last longer than Haste, you'd be hard press to hit more than three people at a time, since the SCH and BRD would want to stay away from the front whenever possible, especially with anything that has nasty AoE.


2. Another situation is when you're relying on a SCH/RDM to do most of the crowd control in Dynamis. You definitely want to shorten recast with Haste, since Manifestation really screws up the recast time. As is, SCH/RDM doesn't have Haste, yet, so if a SMN/WHM has enough free time and MP, a Haste would be quite appreciated.

Incidentally, I was on crowd control duty for quite a bit of last night's Dynamis as SCH75/RDM37 (because one RDM was late, and the other was... underperforming). The smart WHM in tank party noticed, and sent Haste my way whenever I had to switch from healer to crowd control.

While I (really, really) appreciated that, it would have been better to have the WHM focus his attention on the PLD and cross cure instead, if we had a SMN80/WHM40 to toss me a Haste every so often. While a WHM should always stay near his party, a support SMN has a bit of freedom to roam between BP unless cure dumping is needed. (This is an important difference; in Dynamis, the crowd controllers' best defense is distance--I'm always shifting location when on that duty, using distance to give myself more time to react to waking monsters.)

The nice thing about Haste is that it crosses party/alliance boundary, unlike Hastega. (It's also why SE never wanted Accession to work with it. lol.) There are plenty of other situations where a SMN/WHM's cross-party Haste will be useful. Which leads to:

3. Outside party Haste.
This is when the single target Haste is the one and only option.

* * *

SE has directly stated that it wants to make party/alliance configuration more flexible. From what I've seen, the level cap increase is doing exactly that.

[Shirai]

Re: Saying no to burns?

(by the way sams with 70-80% haste and 3 single handed DD's with 70% haste is kick ass)

And here's yet another example of my point towards you.

Let's debate your 80% claim:
With both Marches and Haste (~34%) and gear that would bring it up to haste cap (~25%) combined with Haste Samba (10% assuming the Dancer fully merited that) and Hasso (10%) I come to indeed a reduction of 79% weapons delay, for the sams.
But considering the gear a samurai needs for that, and the equipment bard needs to reach that tier on March,I really have a hard time believing you.
Moreso because you claim to be having 70% on your red mage, which needs even harder to get gear to cap gear haste.

Then you're claiming 3 single handed DD's, looking at your setup that means either, the bard is meleeing, and the corsair is pulling.
While corsair has a greater damage output then a bard when it comes to DDing.

But considering you corsair is subbing ranger and bard is subbing ninja I'd go with:
The Corsair is wearing Haste gear, which has no influence on ranged attacks, on his normal melee that lower his performance considerably because he's sacrificing accuracy, and a lot of it.
So would Red mage by the way.

And I'm not even sure Corsair can equip that much Haste.

Although for someone who isn't a RDM and hasn't played RDM in a high level atmosphere, you wouldn't rightly know how taxing it can be keeping a 5-6 person haste+refresh cycle going, and being expected to keep those 5-6 people alive. While possibly being required to debuff a mob. It looks awesome as a SMN always having that 3mp/tick cutting down on your perp costs, but ill tell you using 240 on haste or 240 on refresh (or in some instances 480MP on both) is stupid, especially if those mage jobs can soon give it to themselves.

Oh, it may come as a shock to you, but even though Red mage isn't on my list as this character I do occasionally play the characters of friends and linkshell members that do play other jobs then that I have leveled at high level.
I never leveled the job, but I do know how to play it and what gear to use for what spell, ability and situation.
Just from looking at others play and reading.

You shouldn't be jumping into people's afairs saying 'you didn't level my job so you don't know'.
For that matter, you're in the summoner forums and I don't see you having leveled summoner either.
Yet you're spouting what we should be subbing and how we should be playing.

And my opinion about not wanting Refresh II because you're lazy still stands.
Last I checked loging in to the game it didn't have any extra buttons saying:

-Easy
-Normal
-Hard
-Godlike

oh and P.S. Refresh + Convert > sublimation and light arts

Care to add numbers or any sound arguments?
Because I am now willing to write down the whole math for you.

you are a support healing class, not a main healer so fuck off with -na's that is a SCH WHM or RDM/WHM job.

You know, even though I appreciate your sentiment regarding the job, you're contradicting your own words regarding telling jobs you have not leveled how to play their jobs.
I won't pick on you about that too much.

Still Summoner is best off in that part of the role in most situations.
Sure, a Red mage is a major help but a summoner can stand their ground in a healing role really well without help from the outside.
It's all about mentality and willingness to play different roles within one's job, even if they are the less fun roles to play for some.
The same goes for your own.

I've told you before in a different topic, if you're leveling a job for a single aspect of it, you're playing the wrong job.
Or even the wrong game for that matter.

Or use you WP to fix the problems ya know the Curaga III + Erase WP, maybe you don't since you rely on a support job to pretend you are a main healer

Ah, you seem to know a bit about Spring water I see, but your knowledge is a tad flawed.
Allow me to enlighten you a little;
It's not a Curaga III, not even close.
It heals up to ~150 HP, bringing it closer to a Curaga 1½ with a ~15 second casting time.
(Summoning Avatar, getting in range, commanding pact)
As for that little soothing (erase) effect, doesn't work on erasables, it aint broken, it just doesn't remove erasables.
But all in all you don't want to be relying on a healing Blood pact in a high activity situation, trust me.

As for your sub job argument, you should really pay attention on how many main jobs rely on their sub jobs to do a good job.
Now that's a lot of jobs, including your own job.

Also being a white mage myself, I know how taxing rotations can be, while having to do crowd control and enfeeble, manage my MP pool and on top of that *gasp!* keep my party alive.
Sure, I don't have to refresh people, but somehwere along that line you can use Regen as suplement.
Red mages aint the only class to have to deal with rotations and crowd control ya know?

LOL. While I like your attitude, I respectfully disagree with that opinion. Two examples where I can see Earthen Ward not being worthwhile:

Well, in case of a scholar or /scholar (other then smn) being in the party I agree.
Their stoneskin absorbs 100 more damage then my Earthen ward (if they're geared for it), so yes if the scholar is willing to combine accession with it, it saves me 92 MP I can use for another buff.
Outside of any mage parties (where there is no scholar or even /scholar present) EW is something that should be in the rotation.
But, we're merely debating situations here.

In the situations you lay before me in the previous post there was no mention of a person providing the dying summoners with stoneskin.
Which brought me to that conclusion.

I personally have supported quite a few melee and tank parties in the days I went Summoner more often then I go today and Earthen ward was one of those standard pacts in my rotation next to Hastega.
Nowadays with the accessibility of Accession from a subjob, yes Earthen Ward has become obsolete in a manner of speaking.
(Yet in return they gave Hastega that little upgrade, 4 minutes and 43 seconds yesterday @ level 76 with my base skill at 270 (337 skill total))

But if you're asking me if I can and am willing to adapt to different situations;
I can only say yes to both.

[ShepardG]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Ahem...I'll bite, since ya'll assholes COMPLETELY went off topic.

MrMageo,

You are stuck on this and for that I applaud you. Alright let me ask a few questions, and help me out here, cause I'm going to further the argument along a bit, by assuming a few things, but we can discuss the inaccuracies afterwords, but let's begin:
-Could you list your current/IDEAL (as in if you had every single piece of gear in the game) :: TP, Weapon Skill, Magic Nuking Set, Idle Set?
-Could you list your Ideal Merit's (I assume 8/8 Enfeebling,Elemental, 8/8 Sword/Dagger, RDM merits is what I'm mainly curious about, and also MP/HP merits, and Stat Merits (dex,str,etc.)
-Could you list your target mobs, or should we just assume everything that you would be normally exping off of? At 75-76 Birds/Mamool, Above that probably bibiki bay, Promvian's, Seaboard Vultures, Abyssea Mobs, etc.
-What would your Ideal Party setup be in the RDM Meleeing scenario?

I'll get into my thoughts on the matter momentairly, but i'll say these things first, I personally Don't think it's a viable option, don't want it in any party that I'm building or participating in, WITH the exception of just having fun with friends.
The reasoning behind my views are this: I do not do things half assed. When I go to EXP I want to get the most EXP in the leastl amount of time, that is why i'm there, that is what the other 5 to 17 people SHOULD be there for, and I hope that they bring their 'A' Game with them whenever they party with me. (I understand everyone is human)

I have built and worked this situation over and over in my mind, hell I was all about it when I got my first characters rdm to 75 also, Had a Blau, a Joy, a scorp harness, looked exactly like the taru in your signature honestly (only mine was elvaan)
I tried it 3 or 4 times. And I'm not gonna toot my own horn, but I like to think I play my jobs very well, I have folks I play with that I would hope would say the same thing, actually. Never was I able to efficently pull this off. Not once. And I'm going to attempt to explain to you why, in this thread about weither or not OP should use SMN burning to level his SMN...

1. MP: Let's say your TPing in this, as RDM/DNC (maybe wanna do blu, or drk or nin/shrug)>>>
Magian OAT weapon Completely upgraded (atleast as much as possible at this point)
Joyeuse or the OA2-3 Magian Sword
White Tathlum/Lucky Coin (hasn't been found yet, just saying)
Walahra Turban
Ancient torque/or Forti Torque/Or that new Sword skill Torque from Abyssea
Suppanomimi
Brutal Earring
Goliard Saio
Dusk +1
Toreador's Ring
Rajas Ring
Cuchulain's Mantle/12 Acc mantle/ummm other mantle that I'm not privey too
Haste belt either 4%//5%//6%//or 7%
I hope Nashira searweels as I don't think anything is going to beat 2 haste here except for Mini expansion legs 3% +7 Acc so we'll go with that
and Dusk +1

I could keep going, but I don't have the resources at work to argue this argument again, but the entire community seems to understand why RDM don't melee. IT IS NOT EFFICENT FOR THE PARTIES OVERALL GOALS.

If you had 6 of the best players, all with 20/20 jobs and full merits for whatever they wanted, and the best gear, and the best communication. and said "Build your Ideal 6 Man EXP party", your not going to see a RDM melee in there.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Saying no to burns?

If you had 6 of the best players, all with 20/20 jobs and full merits for whatever they wanted, and the best gear, and the best communication. and said "Build your Ideal 6 Man EXP party", your not going to see a RDM melee in there.

Pardon me while I play devil's advocate, but with such a proposal you're also not going to see the majority of the jobs in that configuration regardless of what loopy or proven play-style they use.

Efficiency is a good argument up to a point, but if you take it too far it can be detrimental. Efficiency is something you should strive for, while still having a good time. Otherwise you should be putting in extra hours at the office for overtime pay, because then you'll at least be rewarded for not having fun.

[Chromemage]

Re: Saying no to burns?

The debate rages on and why? It was all said and done:

All SMN is is WHM v.2 in EXP. It's during endgame events that you really learn your job, so burn away (just make sure you skill up)

[MrMageo]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Moreso because you claim to be having 70% on your red mage, which needs even harder to get gear to cap gear haste.

A RDM can get to the gear haste cap quite easily. So i don't know what your it can't thing is about. A good SAM for example is expected to have a Hagun and a Hauby +1 which pre update ran around 3-3.5 Mil for the 2. A RDM can get
the following set up.
Body: Goliard 4% (free)
Head: W.Turban 5%(free)
Pants: ASA 3%(free)
Waist: 4%/6% (free)
Shield: 1% (free)

That is 17-19% free haste

Hands Dusk +1 (about 1-2 mil) 4%
Feet Dusk+1 (about 1-2 mil) 3%

that is 24-26% haste. Meaning you are 1% below cap at worst. But if you are serious about it you can get cap (which occurs at 26%). Now this is solely based on old gear, not the new belt (5% haste) which will leave you at about .4% haste below cap.

Does it require work and gil sure, but every other melee class has to deal with the same shit.

Also FTR March caps at 9% haste. March 2 caps 11.91% haste. Also haste is one of the few things in this game that does not get floored. So if you want to bitch about .09% then feel free. 70-80%, and 70% stands. If you do not know a bard with a good build at 75+ then your LS must be utter shit. Every bard I party with has a max march set, but then again I play with good players.

Care to add numbers or any sound arguments?
Because I am now willing to write down the whole math for you.

Light arts will have to return 110 MP in 2.5 minutes (150 seconds) which is 37 cure 3's (or 1628 MP spent.) 4 MP saved per cure three and 1-3 MP saved per -na or erase. (which still leaves the Mp expenditure well over 1000MP.). In a 10 minute cycle you will get to use sublimation about 3 times (@ 3.75 minutes for 25% of the average 700 HP SMN = 175 x2 = 350 MP + (unfinished = 75) = 425 returned over a period of 10 minutes. Convert will restore a difference of 275 MP every 10 minutes. (both act on top of siphon so it is left out.). So to match the returns on one single refresh you need to spend over 1K MP in 2.5 minutes, to match the returns on convert you need to use sublimation 5 times in 10 minutes. I fail to see how any thing will compete with this.

Hence my stance that SMN is a support healer. It should have always been, but now it will be. (or should be). SMN's true Strength has always been the proper use of BP's (appropriate ones vs weak mobs ie. Piercing on Colibri) and the appropriate use of WP's (ie. Hastega to save the primary healer/buffer 160-240 MP every 3 minutes).

I have not said this is how SMN should be played, all I said was that SMN's should not be main healers. Something that transpired in the TP burn hooplah day. I have never looked at SMN as a main healer but as a support healer, and I have never invited a SMN to main heal. (one of my best buddies is a SMN and we merit (ed) a lot together as SMN/SCH (pre convert) and RDM/DNC split healing).

I have nothing against SMN's my whole position was burn parties for jobs that are not first jobs the examples I gave are the fine points you only learn by parties. Now it is not my issue if you level SMN/WHM and main heal the whole time or RDM/WHM and main heal the whole time. They are perfectly viable ways to level, but when it comes down to situations I originally outlined, a SMN/WHM who doesn't BP or WP with a main healer or a RDM/whatever who doesn't nuke or melee with a main healer or co-healer, is a waste of a party slot. This was said due to the fact the game is changin again, party wise. You may not notice it sitting on your throne. But the awesome camps are taken (by awesome I mean the tankless solo healing colibri camps). More and more people are joining traditional parties, and people are trying to build TP burns on mobs that can't be TP burned with a solo healer.

In the context of my points, a traditional setup (which is becoming more popular everyday) a SMN isa support healer and a RDM (unless they happen to be the main healer) should either be nuking mobs, or meleeing them while acting as support.

You know, even though I appreciate your sentiment regarding the job, you're contradicting your own words regarding telling jobs you have not leveled how to play their jobs.
I won't pick on you about that too much.
Still Summoner is best off in that part of the role in most situations.
Sure, a Red mage is a major help but a summoner can stand their ground in a healing role really well without help from the outside.
It's all about mentality and willingness to play different roles within one's job, even if they are the less fun roles to play for some.
The same goes for your own.
I've told you before in a different topic, if you're leveling a job for a single aspect of it, you're playing the wrong job.
Or even the wrong game for that matter.

I am not disregarding the fact a SMN can do that, perhaps I didn't clearly get my point across. But my point was people have taken certain aspects of a job for granted. SMN's only main heal (to level) RDM's don't have a nuke or melee set (for leveling) My overall point was, unless you are lucky the majority of parties now have a main healer (SCH,WHM, RDM/WHM, RDM/SCH) and a support healer (SMN,BLU,DNC,RDM/anything, SCH/RDM in a nuke role). While TP burns can still be single healed (hell a lone DRG/mage is usually enough on colibri) the majority of camps now are not the typical TP burn. The TP moves actually hurt, the mobs can actually hit, and they can take a dozen or more seconds longer to kill. In the context that I followed my original comments with SMN;s and RDM;s who find themselves in the support role, need to do more than just help heal or buff to be worthwhile. They need to contribute some damage on the mob due to the loss of a DD (from the typical TP burn style). It is the same with a COR/WHM or BRD/WHM they are there in a support role and outside the buffs and occasional heals they need to add damage to make up for the missing DD. Even if it only parses at 15-20% of total damage that is 15-20% faster deaths per mob.

My whole point was not a better than this or better than that or do this or do that, it was simply a warning that the hybrid capable jobs (RDM/BLU/SMN/BRD/COR/DNC) won't be able to just get by as one trick ponies (well they can if they are willing to wait hours on end to exp/merit.) The hybrid role is being re-established. (finally). If it so happens you are asked to main heal as a RDM or SMN then so be it that is your job, they are capable as such. But if you come in as a support role you are not only supporting the main heals, you must supplement the damage output.

My gripe towards the burn mentality is not that you wont learn endgame, it is an entirely different pickle. I don't expect a RDM to melee on endgame mobs (well maybe sky/sea mobs and kings post 90) or a SMN to main heal on the same. But a burned character needs to merit, which requires a merit party, and not knowing your full capabilities or how to use them in a party will hinder that party.

You are stuck on this and for that I applaud you. Alright let me ask a few questions, and help me out here, cause I'm going to further the argument along a bit, by assuming a few things, but we can discuss the inaccuracies afterwords, but let's begin:
-Could you list your current/IDEAL (as in if you had every single piece of gear in the game) :: TP, Weapon Skill, Magic Nuking Set, Idle Set?

No i will not because it is very time consuming and highly situational I will give you a rough idea however.

TP set: Haste>ACC>ATK
Haste allows you to get enspell damage out quicker which is a RDM's meat food during the TP phase (a max enspell build is the equivelent to having about 200+ ATK. 150 if you account for averages based on resists.) ACC is required to attain a reasonable hit rate. (about 85% hit rate is required for haste to be better than ACC) Atk is the last thing, it takes a lot of +ATK to equate to 1% haste or 1% hit rate (unless you hit rate is capped). The TP set I would use is as follows (and mob dependant)

Weapon: Joyeuseé (Blau if piercing weak or not at max haste 70%)
Offhand: Sentinel Shield (joyeuse if piercing or haste not at max 70%)
range: /
ammo: Tiphia Sting
Head: W. Turban
Neck: Sea Torque or PCC or Spectacles
Ear1: Hollow
Ear2: Suppa
Body: Goliard (or ACP body with ACC+DW when DW)
Hands: Dusk+1
Ring: ACC Ring (any of them post woodsman)
Ring: Raja's (Ffencer Ring if yellow HP)
Back: Any of the +ATK Anmet+1 and above
Waist: Speed/Vbelt (ideal) or Swift, or the new belt (5% haste)
Legs: ASA legs (3% haste +7 ACC)
Feet: Dusk+1

/DNC for single hand, /nin dual weild

Ideally this will give you a 90%+ hit rate @ 26% (25% cap) haste, with about 350 attack. With Joy single handed and max haste you will gain 100 TP in a little under 20 seconds (unless you cast spells) DW you will have a -23% reduction and gain TP in a little over 25 seconds. (due to not being able to max haste and the lower TP/hit from DW.)

For WS it will depend on what you are using.

For Evis an ACC and DEX set can't go wrong. Dex rings MKD head etc you want at least 20% over cap on ACC (which on colibri is a 450 ACC which requires a mixture of dex and ACC gear) and ATK where you can't get decent ACC or DEX. For Death Blossom or Savage Blade you want STR you don't need as much ACC due to the less amount of hit deteriation like evis. (STR is used to increse your Fstr and ATK as well as the mod)

-Could you list your Ideal Merit's (I assume 8/8 Enfeebling,Elemental, 8/8 Sword/Dagger, RDM merits is what I'm mainly curious about, and also MP/HP merits, and Stat Merits (dex,str,etc.)

I am a taru so my HP/MP merits may be a bit weird to you. I use 4 and 4. This gives me a 1K convert as /nonmage.
Magic merits are 8/8 enfeeble 8/8 enhancing. Stronger Phalanx/II Stronger Enspells.
Dagger 8/8, Sword 8/8
Stats are 5 STR
Crit is 4

Basically since SE decided to not include any melee abilities in my RDM I chose the melee stuff to merit. (as for elemental I had 8/8 until SCH was released when I know I will be nuking lots I /SCH. The enhancing merits are just to much to pass up otherwise for ACC and Damage on enspells, and PLDs love my -29 DMG phalanx's.)

The great thing about RDM merits is the options are wide open. you can really make it how you want it.

-Could you list your target mobs, or should we just assume everything that you would be normally exping off of? At 75-76 Birds/Mamool, Above that probably bibiki bay, Promvian's, Seaboard Vultures, Abyssea Mobs, etc.

Any target that a big DD can melee on is viable for a RDM. While we may not do as much damage mob to mob (ie. Piercing vs Blunt) we are still dealing damage and still supporting heals. RDM generally takes less damage from mobs with AoE attack due to Phalanx, and/or Stoneskin, or MDB traits than most jobs. Also the TP argument is moot, since mobs do not follow the same TP rules players do )the tend to hold till about 50% then start to use, and at under 25% will start spaming.)

Due to where a RDM skill lies the gear we can equip the food we can eat, we can melee pretty much anything (hell we could melee HNM's sky gods, sea nm's if we wanted to, but we would only really hit for low numbers. However enspell II's + a Cdagger can really really help in SC+MB HNM situations.)

-What would your Ideal Party setup be in the RDM Meleeing scenario?

The ideal setup varies it involves one of the following a dedicated main healer, or a healing partner (such as a DNC). There is no way you are going to be able to melee and still main heal so cross that off your list. You can melee and support heal, you can melee and primary buff to. The thing is you can not d everything. You can't do it. You can hep heal and buff and melee, you can melee outright and buff only yourself, but you can not do it all yourself. Really any party with a WHM or RDM/WHM,SCH or a SCH/RDM,WHM is an invitation to melee, a party with a DNC or a BLU(with healing spells equipped) a SMN or any other hybrid including another RDM melee is an invitation to be a hybrid, which means you will auto attack, WS, SC, MB as well as help support the group. Essentially the 2 will halve their DD out put to combine as 1 main healer and 1 DD this is why the SAM/SAM/DNC/RDM/COR(BRD)/BRD party works so well, you essentially have 1 full main healer, and ~4DD as well as the buff of a 2 buffer party the RDM and DNC auto attacks and WS's combined outclass a heavy DD even whilemain healing with a COR or BRD also getting the same buffs and DD'ing it is like another 1/2-1 people. Essentially you have the kill speed of a 4DD party with the buffs of a 3DD party. If the BRD or COR go /WHM or /SCH you do not require a tank on any of the current mobs. As for abyessa i have no comment I have not nor do i plan on buying any of the current xpacks.

Could keep going, but I don't have the resources at work to argue this argument again, but the entire community seems to understand why RDM don't melee. IT IS NOT EFFICENT FOR THE PARTIES OVERALL GOALS.

If you had 6 of the best players, all with 20/20 jobs and full merits for whatever they wanted, and the best gear, and the best communication. and said "Build your Ideal 6 Man EXP party", your not going to see a RDM melee in there.

It WAS NOT. The TP burn single healer mentality of the past 4 years has been a thorn in the side of hybrid classes, SMN/RDM/BLU/DNC. The mobs we fought did not really ever require support, 4DD 1BRD/COR RDM/WHM were the common place. However now that the cap has increased and the super squishy mobs are a luxury for exp/merits hybrids are making a comeback, and will prove vital like they did pre TOAU. Its not just melee but it is nuking as well or BP's or a BLU coming with healing spells, or a DNc who can DD well. The fact a lot of mobs we are now fighting require a tank or a support healer speaks volumes. The point I have always keyed in on is that a support job, be it a RDM/whatevr, or a SMN, or a DNC or a BLU with healing set should always be ready to supplement the healer and the DD. At the current stage of the game hybrids will no longer be able to focus on simply one task, a WHM can out heal a RDM, hands down, but a RDM in a party with a WHM should understand that there is more required to claim that spot than haste/refresh and enfeebles. You need to add damage via nukes or the less MP taxing (and more damage rewarding) melee. A SMN who is in a party with a healer needs to know what mobs are weak to what BP, What Ward is most beneficial overall to a party. A BLU needs to know that they should help heal sometimes, and a DNC needs to know how to DD to the best of their ability.

It is not a case of RDM should melee all the time because its a lost secret to awesome EXP. It is a HYBRID should know the extent of their abilities to best serve the group to attaining better EXP, and frankly a hybrid who only focuses on one task is not doing enough to warrant their party place. A hybrid needs to balance support and damage equally, then and only then will they be worth having in a traditional (current majority) party.

My overall point from my original post (though it was probably lost in my inability to communicate what my brain is thinking) was not this is how you have to play. Moreover it is this is how you should play. Players are going to expect hybrids to be able to perform at higher levels than they are used to. It will be expected RDM's nuke or melee, it will be expected SMN's BP, it will be expected DNC DD, it will be expected BLU's set healing spells. Hell SE has already set the Hybrid roll in motion, DNC got some awesome DD potential, they can now /SAM or /WAR fulltime, SMN has access to convert an soon to be refresh for further MP sustainability, BLU got a self refresh tat better than a RDM, and RDM got access to /DNC's toys with the ability to DW if need be, SCH's entire -na list, as well as accession and manifestion.

SE has given all the hybrids reason to be hybrids again, including mobs that require it, and atm a lot of thoe hybrids just are not up to par. The days of healing only RDM's, DNC and SMN's ,and DD only BLU;s are behind us. For the FotM RDM's and SMN's they need to learn to step into a "new" role (aka a pre ToAU role) for the BLU's and DNC's they need to learn that they don't just have one task, a BLU can support heal and a DNC can DD very well.

All I know is since the update I have not been in a party without ether a main healer or a healing partner, I have not had a party where I either did not nuke or melee to supplement damage for the missing DD (based on DD; parties), I also know I have had groups where I kicked the BLU for not having healing spells, the RDM for nor contributing at all to damage, the SMN for not BPing (on my BRD). Frankly the days of cushy bullshit are done, and my first post on the subject was more a warning than an ultimatum.

As for how it ties into this thread, SMN burns are great for getting a level fast, but as a hybrid job like SMN there is more to know than how to count to 60 seconds, for a war there is more to know than how to do a 1.5K WS, for a RDM there is more to know than how to single heal. The easy peasy ToAU shit is gone, we are leveling again, Endgame is one thing (and completely different) but if you want to party and level and merit, you need to know everything your job is capable of, and a SMN burn can not do that for you. Ill tell you right now, I will take a WAR who can only do a 900 WS but knows when/how to voke over a WAR who has a 1500 WS but doesn't. I will take a SAM who knows to sacrafice DMG for safety with 3eye/seigan over hasso over the epeen sam who wont, and I will take the Hybrid job that understands they need to supplement both support and damage, even if they are not up to my crazy standards, over on who focus' solely on one task.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Saying no to burns?

The debate rages on and why? It was all said and done:

I said it before, but Malacite is wrong; endgame doesn't utilize SMN's soloing ability, and lower level BP can be used to skillchain, where as the Lv.70+ BPs do not.

The first one is a skill useful for getting exp buffer back and farming KS, while the second one is just plain fun. You do miss out on some things if you AF exp all the way; it should be an individual's choice to AF exp or not, and a blanket recommendation just isn't needed.

[Ketaru]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Actually, in the end, I have no idea why people complain about RDMs meleeing in their parties in the first place. Or for that matter, any party member that is not living up to the expectations of the group.

Every single person in this entire game has the choice to leave a party that is not to their satisfaction. Every party leader has the choice to boot a member that they do not want. If you want a RDM that doesn't melee, and your RDM is meleeing, dropping them is as easy as...why as easy as going to the Party menu!

Of course people won't do that. Most are too weak willed to stand on principle in the face of not having a RDM in their party. Your WHM won't cast Regen? Complain to your LS. Complain to your favorite online forum. But heavens no, don't boot them. Keep on enabling them while gritting your teeth.

Didn't know that RDM with Seek Party up was going to melee? "When you gamble, you have to consider losing as one of the possibilities."

[Malacite]

Re: Saying no to burns?

I said it before, but Malacite is wrong; endgame doesn't utilize SMN's soloing ability, and lower level BP can be used to skillchain, where as the Lv.70+ BPs do not.

Like hell it doesn't. Carby pulling & Kiting mobs doesn't count?

And who in their right mind is going to use the lower level pacts just for a skillchain, especially with so many people having SAM at 75+? F that nonsense, stick to the 70's or even MB the 75~80 pacts off the SAM's SCs. Hi2u Sengikori > Darkness > Heavenly Strike/Lunar Bay.