Saying no to burns?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Saying no to burns?

your first job to 80 should be partied in my opinion. By burning you miss out on key points as effective enfeebling, buffing, mana conservation, when/when not to WS, mob abilities on common mobs, etc etc etc.

Even before level sync, I've seen plenty of people who failed to learn these on their first job.

No new player is going to have the kind of gil needed to buy AF flow constantly anyway, except gil buyers. As a newbie player, pretty much only SMNs can AF burn all the way.

A prime example is the gimp RDM's who think they can coast by on healing and buffing only. Especially now with the rehash of old mobs, that can and should be enfeebled, can and should be nuked, and can and should be melee'd (to open a SC for a heavy DD to close in which you will MB.)

lol what?

RDM nuking is weak; most of the RDMs I've seen nuking in exp parties were heavily resisted on top of lacking better tier nukes like BLMs and SCHs. And, melee'ing? You'd need staves to nuke (and enfeeb)--are you going to melee with your HQ Ice Staff?

As for Skillchain, until Evisceration, exactly what good SC can RDM with dagger or sword open for a strong weapon skill from a DD to close? Gravitation? Still have to wait until DRG/SAM get Penta Thrust.

Most melee RDMs are so distracted by melee'ing, that they can't even keep up Refresh or Dispel, never mind casting cure and -na spells. I complain a lot, but the only person I personally booted out of an exp party in memory was exactly a melee RDM who couldn't dispel those fire crawlers' defense buff. His damage contribution? lol. Round-off error is the best way to describe that--certainly not worth the amount of damage output we lost because he couldn't pay enough attention to dispel Cocoon.

He wasn't the only lousy melee RDM, either; I've never seen a single melee RDM worthy of his party slot. Frankly, I'm less annoyed by a melee SMN than a melee RDM.

Now with all mages having a convert, there should be no reason for a RDM not to do all that stuff.

Are you expecting WHMs to go /RDM instead of /SCH? If there's a RDM in party, WHM should be on /SCH.

SMN/WHM is a support healer, SMN/RDM is a better support healer (at 80).

If you fight stuff which has no enfeebs, I can see SMN/RDM being better. Otherwise, /WHM wins for -na, Erase, and bar- spells.

And, where's /SCH?

If a SMN is not using a BP and Ward every chance they get then they are not playing the job properly.

What happened to the talk about "mana conservation" earlier?

It is like /SAM DD's who do not use Seigan/3eye to curb damage incoming. Or turn their backs for a second to slow hate accumulation. Instead they choose to /NIN which gimps their damage more than using seigan/3eye until the mob loses interest.

Gimp is gimp; while it's nice to get extra damage out of /SAM, /NIN gimps no front line job.

The less damage the DDs take, the better Haste stay on them. I always haste the first provoke person first, then the DD/NIN. Haste on DD/SAMs are strictly for if-and-when I have MP/time.

But then again there are shitty players, lazy players, who come from parties as much as AF. But if it is your first job, you are going to look stupid when you agro something that you have never been near and die, slowing down the party or event, because you have no prior knowledge except for waiting on the RDM or PLD to super tank in K-Tunnel for you.

In the lousy Sky LS I'm in, we usually have people who aggro and die to weapons every week--something they definitely have been near many, many, many times.

As I said, AF exp'ing doesn't make the idiots--it just attracts them like flies to a rotting corpse.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Not to defend Mageo here but . . .

RDM MELEE HIJACK ROFL

And, melee'ing? You'd need staves to nuke (and enfeeb)--are you going to melee with your HQ Ice Staff?

Barring maybe the occasional Magic Burst if you're strictly backlining it up (perhaps against magically weak, physically tough mobs?), I am not fond of RDM nuking, either: too much MP wasted for relatively inconsistent damage. However, I have little reason to believe that Enfeebling on the front lines is not feasible, even against exp party targets.

I again point to the Trials of the Magians to show that the weapon for the hybrid Red Mage does, in fact, exist now, and for the level 75 weapons it is the Soulsaber taken down the Dark elemental path, resulting in a bonus of Magic Accuracy for the weapon. Magic Accuracy+10 is hardly what I would call negligible on a weapon that is also capable of at least half-decent DPS, especially considering that, with Death Blossom and the appropriate Enspell II, you can match the total Magic Accuracy bonus you would get from an HQ elemental staff - and since you're providing an NQ staff's worth of that bonus in the form of Magic Evasion Down, other spellcasters in the party would also benefit almost as much from the Red Mage's presence on the front line as the Red Mage him-or-herself would.

Oh, and if the MAcc+10 from the level 75 Soulsaber is enough to match the staves, the MAcc+12 from the level 80 Shamshir is enough to better them.

As for Skillchain, until Evisceration, exactly what good SC can RDM with dagger or sword open for a strong weapon skill from a DD to close? Gravitation? Still have to wait until DRG/SAM get Penta Thrust.

If you want early-game (and since you're asking for pre-Penta Thrust, I think it's a safe assumption that you do), Burning Blade/Red Lotus Blade > Combo/Raging Axe -> Fusion. It helps that Red Lotus Blade (assuming the Red Mage is subbing something appropriate for it) is hardly a crappy weapon skill in and of itself, particularly in those early levels, and can also be used to open Gravitation from the aforementioned Penta Thrust.

If you want late-game, Death Blossom is at least the second-best skillchain opener in the game right now. The best possible skillchain opening now probably consists of a Sengikori Tachi: Rana immediately preceding said Death Blossom, but this is obviously most applicable in situations wherein you are able to set up a multi-part skillchain.

Most melee RDMs are so distracted by melee'ing, that they can't even keep up Refresh or Dispel, never mind casting cure and -na spells. I complain a lot, but the only person I personally booted out of an exp party in memory was exactly a melee RDM who couldn't dispel those fire crawlers' defense buff. His damage contribution? lol. Round-off error is the best way to describe that--certainly not worth the amount of damage output we lost because he couldn't pay enough attention to dispel Cocoon.

He wasn't the only lousy melee RDM, either; I've never seen a single melee RDM worthy of his party slot. Frankly, I'm less annoyed by a melee SMN than a melee RDM.

The eternal struggle - any possibility of competent front-line Red Mages always shut down by the bitter memories of the obviously bad ones, and we are left eternally stereotyped. This is hardly to say that Red Mages are the only people who suck at the front line - what was that you posted earlier about so-called "DD" jobs being out-damage by a Dragoon Wyvern? Since more jobs than RDM can suck at the front line if played incorrectly, though, it seems almost unfair that Red Mages specifically are singled out as the "one job" that just can't seem to be able to do its job at the front line, no matter how competent the person behind it is (if you're really preferring SMNs on the front line to us, I think that proves my point . . . ).

Though, on your personal note on having "never seen a single melee RDM worthy his party slot," I feel it's worthwhile to note that you almost never seem to note any NA player at all as ever being worthy of his party slot . . .

SO, HOW ABOUT THAT SUMMONER, GUYS.

Frankly, I'm less annoyed by a melee SMN than a melee RDM.

Maybe the solution to Summoner's problems is to start actively gearing them for melee, then!

[Malacite]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Are you expecting WHMs to go /RDM instead of /SCH? If there's a RDM in party, WHM should be on /SCH.

As a side note, /RDM and /SCH are about equal right now and thanks to SE's cock-blocking /RDM will win out in the end once the caps go up again.


As for SMN "learning" it's job in EXP parties, L - O - L.


All SMN is is WHM v.2 in EXP. It's during endgame events that you really learn your job, so burn away (just make sure you skill up)

[Shirai]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Goody goody goody!!
Another game of smn sub job pong!
Yay!

Sorry to burst your 'red mage ist dem überclass!!' bubble, but /rdm will be no more than a situational sub and /sch is and will stay superior in most situations.

Current pros of /sch vs. /rdm in most of the game situations.

/sch pros:
-Arts stance casting/recast time reduction of 10%
-Arts stance MP cost reduction of 10%
-Stratagems saving casting/recast time by 50%
-Stratagems saving MP cost by 50%
-Stratagems making buffs, cures and status removal spells AoE.
-Conserve MP job trait.
-Max MP bonus (although not applicable to smn main)
-Bonuses to skillcaps from Arts stances.
-Status debuff removal spells.
-Regen II
-Sublimation (in case there's no red mage present)
-Reraise
-Drain
-Aspir

/rdm pros:
-Fast cast
-Convert
-Stoneskin (Earthen ward will take care of that matter and as far as that goes... yeah like summoners get hit a lot... riiiiiiiiiiight)
-Phalanx (Noctoshield, and see stoneskin)
Whoopy we'll get refresh next update, don't you think Red mage will get a Refresh II making that whole thing moot in 90% of the situations?
No don't expect refresh and refresh II to stack, the regen line doesn't so why should refresh?
Oh, oh, oh, Haste from /rdm at 90!!
Uh, yea, thanks to recent updates my Hastega lasts pretty close to 4 minutes with my current skill build and will cap out at the full 5 minutes when I cap my skill at 80.
Also I can get haste from the less MP efficient but more group support friendly white mage sub.

Cons:

/SCH
- No Stoneskin

/RDM
- No MP cost reducing traits or abilities
- No Status removal spells
- No AoE cures
- No Reraise

As far as I can see /sch is more MP efficient and more party friendly when it comes to performing a support role which even beyond lvl 80 will not change.
Like it or not, the updates involving the summoner job have been leaning towards putting the job more and more in that support role, Avatar's favor and the recent upgrade on Hastega prove this all the more.
Summoner is a support job with damage dealing capabilities, not the other way around.

The only situations I see /rdm excell (maybe) are:
The situation where smn is recruited to perform a pure DD role, which is mostly on HNM fights and even that is getting less and less.
Soloing, in which case I still prefer scholar sub because of reraise and the ability to effectively sleep something when crap really hits the fan because Dark Arts takes my enfeebling skill to a level where it actually sticks.

Oh and if you want to bring up the 'having to change between stances' part, I'll gladly take your lazy behind on!
You're not the first person wanting to argue full timing stances with me either.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Saying no to burns?

As a side note, /RDM and /SCH are about equal right now and thanks to SE's cock-blocking /RDM will win out in the end once the caps go up again.

Because it's all about MP? lol. Most decent SMNs have great hMP sets, and every decent SMN will find the chance to help out with -na and Erase.

As for SMN "learning" it's job in EXP parties, L - O - L.

All SMN is is WHM v.2 in EXP. It's during endgame events that you really learn your job, so burn away (just make sure you skill up)

I think I'll just blame you for all the SMNs I've had who refused to help out with curing and status removal with 500+ on the MP bar, even when the healers are dry. Learning how to play WHM v.2 is the single best reason to play SMN in exp parties. Like it or not, that /WHM thing is a very helpful part of SMN's toolbox.

And, LOL at learning all there is about SMN at endgame events. Yeah, lot's of soloing training there. Or SC'ing wtih BPs. Not.

/rdm pros:
[...]
-Phalanx (Noctoshield, and see stoneskin)
[...]

I don't consider Phalanx useful w/out native Enhancing Magic.

As for Hastega, it's 129 MP. In situations where you only need to Haste one or two people, /WHM's or /RDM's Haste will win. Same for Earthen Ward; 92 MP AoE Stoneskin isn't a bargain if you're the only one who needs it.

The Stoneskin situation is particularly amusing to me; used to have a SMN/SCH in Dyanmis, and he definitely died quite a few times where even a wimpy 150 HP Stoneskin probably would've saved him.

Also had a different SMN/SCH who did the exact same thing in Limbus.

There's just something about that 92 MP BP which makes SMNs not want to use it--I could see these people's HP go down from Sublimation all the time. lol.

RDM derail

I have little reason to believe that Enfeebling on the front lines is not feasible, even against exp party targets.

This is about as far as I'm willing to read. lol. What the heck do you even know about exp'ing in a party on RDM?

In a sync'ed Lv.67 party a few days ago, I couldn't land a single Silence on Heraldic Imps with Auster's Staff, Enfeebling Torque, and however many merits in Enfeebling Magic that were in play (I've all eight of them.) Heck, Dispel landed only 62.5% of the time, and, yes, I have Pluto's Staff in that macro.

Even at Lv.70, landing Silence on those Imps is far from a sure thing. That's with HQ Wind Staff while lobbing spells safely out of range; good luck to the melee RDM attempting to cast Silence while using a dagger and silenced from Deafening Tantara.

Setting aside the melee ding dongs, there is a reason why most long time RDMs cling to their staves.

[Shirai]

Re: Saying no to burns?

I don't consider Phalanx useful w/out native Enhancing Magic.

As for Hastega, it's 129 MP. In situations where you only need to Haste one or two people, /WHM's or /RDM's Haste will win. Same for Earthen Ward; 92 MP AoE Stoneskin isn't a bargain if you're the only one who needs it.

I absolutely agree, Phalanx without a good base enhancing magic is useless.
As for Hastega, no you wouldn't in a situation where only 2 people would benefit from it, but the increased duration makes the MP cost a tad more worthwhile as we're talking 3 minutes from the spell vs. (max) 5 minutes from the pact.
But as far as a support role goes in a merit/exp party or Dynamis party I usually have 4 melee (3 at a minimum) and a red mage and/or bard as support, who all benefit from it.

The Stoneskin situation is particularly amusing to me; used to have a SMN/SCH in Dyanmis, and he definitely died quite a few times where even a wimpy 150 HP Stoneskin probably would've saved him.

Also had a different SMN/SCH who did the exact same thing in Limbus.

There's just something about that 92 MP BP which makes SMNs not want to use it--I could see these people's HP go down from Sublimation all the time. lol.

Really?
I can only think of one response for not having Earthen ward in your rotation wether you're playing a support or offensive role.

You're doin' it WRONG!!

[Feba]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Sorry to burst your 'red mage ist dem überclass!!' bubble,

Thread ends here, five stars.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Because it's all about MP? lol. Most decent SMNs have great hMP sets, and every decent SMN will find the chance to help out with -na and Erase.

He was talking about WHM in that part of the post (context: he was responding to your equalization of WHM/RDM vs. WHM/SCH!). That kind of already has -nas and Erase.

In situations where you only need to Haste one or two people, /WHM's or /RDM's Haste will win

True. But when the heck are you only going to be Hasting one or two people?!? And don't give me any more of that "well, the SAM/loolnotNIN was doing too much damage" bullcrap you use when not casting single-target Haste on them. That's just no excuse, especially not in the case of Hastega.

This is about as far as I'm willing to read. lol.

Dittaru.

Whoopy we'll get refresh next update, don't you think Red mage will get a Refresh II making that whole thing moot in 90% of the situations?

This is probably the only part of your post I take issue with. If S-E simply resorts to giving Red Mages Refresh II, I'll be severely disappoint.

[Shirai]

Re: Saying no to burns?

This is probably the only part of your post I take issue with. If S-E simply resorts to giving Red Mages Refresh II, I'll be severely disappoint.

Not really, I am sure Red mage will get some extra spells in their repetoire.
But not giving red mage Refresh II while giving other jobs the option to refresh themselves would be a huge punch in the groin with a Morgenstern.
It's either that, or SE needs to make it that Refresh cannot be casted from a subjob.
Because if neither happens Scholar will be replacing all our beloved mage jobs completely.

[ShepardG]

Re: Saying no to burns?

All SMN is is WHM v.2 in EXP. It's during endgame events that you really learn your job, so burn away (just make sure you skill up)

I don't know about "Whm v.2 in EXP", but the rest of this sentance is probably one of the most useful sentances in this thread.

Seriously, getting your SMN to 80, getting all your SMN's, getting your AF,your carby mitts, your Relic, your Summoner ring (forgot name, conjorur's? +10 skill one)your YYR and a set of HQ staves is pretty much the things I would look for in an Endgame summoner.
Once you have those things, the next thing i'm going to be looking for is if your swaping in gear to decrease your re-cast on JA's and increase your Avatars potency before JA's take effect.

After I see that your macroing in gear to maximize your potential the things i'm looking for are: A refresh/Carby Idle set, A Diabolos Refresh/Favor Idle Set (317 skill if i Recall correctly), RDM subjob is now a must have, aswell as i'd say /Sch are the things that are going to set you apart as a skilled SMN.

Things that ice the package, Mini expansion gear with PET augments, Situational gear, Strong Magic/Physical Damage taken Sets.

Things that get you coming to events repeatedly as SMN: Understanding how situations are going to go, and summoning with the right avatar, usuing your sub job as support to it's maximum, keeping up RR, etc.

See...EXPing in a burn or in a party isn't going to teach you these things. Your either going to do it or your not /shrug. The vast majority of players nowadays are just lazy. They don't want to take 30-40 minutes and come up with macro sets for a job based on 1. what their subbing 2. what enviroment their in (i.e. Campaign, Fighting Khimara, Dynamis, Soloing)

Do lazy people SMN burn, yeah, and it does tend to make it easy for lazy people to get to endgame and continue to be lazy, sure, but a lazy person is going to be lazy in an EXP party also, not just burns.

TL;DR:
If your going to be a good Endgame Summoner, how you got to level 80 SHOULD NOT MATTER

[Solymir]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Just want to add you do not need hq staves any more. Fay Crozier ftw.

[MrMageo]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Not really, I am sure Red mage will get some extra spells in their repetoire.
But not giving red mage Refresh II while giving other jobs the option to refresh themselves would be a huge punch in the groin with a Morgenstern.
It's either that, or SE needs to make it that Refresh cannot be casted from a subjob.
Because if neither happens Scholar will be replacing all our beloved mage jobs completely.

Why is that an issue? I would prefer refresh to not get a t2 frankly after 7 years of it haste and refresh cycles piss me off. If Mages can refresh themselves than that is one less thing I need to worry about. We all can't be the little princess mages like BLM and SMN we can't just nuke once every 30 seconds or BP every minute. Frankly I am sick of being responsible for every other class that uses MP. Its about time they handled themselves.

But you don't even have RDM so your punch to the groin comment is unsupportable. RDM's have been bitching for years about cycles. If SE listens to them at all then we wont see refresh II.

To be perfectly honest as the cost of spells rises, then Refresh 2 will need to be 7-10 MP/tick to make it even worth casting. Then add on top of it most likely a 60-80MP cost. Ill be damned if I am dumping 160-480 MP to give out 450 MP* when you can just as easy /RDM and give your self 110MP* an convert for another (600-1000MP). For the cost of the spell you can stick refresh 2 up your ass. Especially if you want that RDM casting haste on 3-4 people as well (120 MP) an enfeebles on the mob hell you are looking at dumping up to 600 MP a cycle just on 2 fucking buffs. Give me a fucking break.

That doesn't even begin to explain how broken it will be for a solo RDM. 80 MP for 1350 MP (with composure and assuming it follows the same rules as current refresh). That is a little bit strong dont you think. It will be instantly nerfed to 6 MP a tick and be nigh useless. (hell composure and refresh as it stands is already a powerful tool for RDM solo.)

Just because you think as a SMN you are a WHM v2 healer doesn't mean RDM needs to support your ass. If you can't BP, Ward and main heal, then maybe you shouldn't main heal.

Of course if SE made healing magic work at all like all other magic skills this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.

(oh and P.S. Refresh + Convert > sublimation and light arts, you are a support healing class, not a main healer so fuck off with -na's that is a SCH WHM or RDM/WHM job. Or use you WP to fix the problems ya know the Curaga III + Erase WP, maybe you don't since you rely on a support job to pretend you are a main healer.)

lol what?

RDM nuking is weak; most of the RDMs I've seen nuking in exp parties were heavily resisted on top of lacking better tier nukes like BLMs and SCHs. And, melee'ing? You'd need staves to nuke (and enfeeb)--are you going to melee with your HQ Ice Staff?

Are you stupid? clearly you must be. If you are meleeing you are not nuking. Except on the occasion where you open a SC, in which case you have dumped your TP. For those who don't know how to MB a SC you open, you begin casting immediately following your WS macro (with t3+) This means you have macro'd into a staff with no TP. Then after you cast you macro back into your melee gear. Crazy huh.

As for Skillchain, until Evisceration, exactly what good SC can RDM with dagger or sword open for a strong weapon skill from a DD to close? Gravitation? Still have to wait until DRG/SAM get Penta Thrust.

Oh I don't know
To many to count. Depending on mob weakness and the ability to use most WS from 2 weapons with decent ability. A RDM can open in no particular order.

Induration, Impaction, Detonation, Fusion, Reverberation, Light, Dark, Gravitation, Scission Liquefaction, Distortion, Fragmentation. All at various levels. With different weapons. So ya thats not many at all, with the exception of a couple LV1 SC's thats about every SC possible. But thats not that many at all.

Most melee RDMs are so distracted by melee'ing, that they can't even keep up Refresh or Dispel, never mind casting cure and -na spells. I complain a lot, but the only person I personally booted out of an exp party in memory was exactly a melee RDM who couldn't dispel those fire crawlers' defense buff. His damage contribution? lol. Round-off error is the best way to describe that--certainly not worth the amount of damage output we lost because he couldn't pay enough attention to dispel Cocoon.

I won't disagree with this. There are a lot of idiots, but then again not having the chance to practice or do it in situations where that stuff is required, is also to blame. Ive booted out Heavy DD's and replaced them with DNC's and THF's because they couldn't avoid becoming cure sinks IE. Dropping Hasso for Seigan + 3eye. Ive booted someone of every job in the game at one point. But that doesn't man I will never invite one again. Just because you deal with bad people doesn't mean the job is inept. Hell prime example is BLU, 90% of BLU fulltime AF. They suck, so by extension all BLU's suck (based on your fucked up linear thought process.) I saw a War use a Sword in a merit party once, so by extension all other Wars suck. A PLD used a polearm one time so they suck too, and that BRD who was meleeing cuz he had nothing better to do after he sang songs made all BRDs suck. That BLM who hit the mob with his staff a few times cuz he was bored so BLM sucks, same with the WHM who used a club makes WHM suck.

Just because you havent had the pleasure of playing with someone who knows their ass from a hole in the ground does not mean its instantly shit, of course then again your expectations are fucking ludicrous as well. Maybe its that you don't read, or maybe you just don't understand what this means....

"When appropriate" ie. you are not solo healing. In the context of my point, I had just finish saying older more traditional parties are being formed, ie. WHM + RDM + Tank + 3x DD or 2DD COR or BRD. In that situation a RDM who simply sits back and helps heal and buff is useless to that party. Outside of Refresh he is not really contributing nothing. A WHM/SCH can heal all fucking day, a WHM/RDM can heal all fucking day. The RDM's who do not understand when to pull out a sword, or nuke are going to be in a world of hurt come 82 when every mage job can refresh, unless of course refresh II is implemented (see above on my thoughts of that). Even still in that situation that RDM is still useless in the party.

You expect a RDM/WHM or /whatever in a main healing roll to fulfill his main healing duties and still put out damage, you sir are and idiot.

Ill agree that 95% of RDM's who try an melee are stupid as shit, and suck jut as much. They don't have the gear, they can't help with buffs, and heals, they forget to debuff, their damage out put is shit, they don't eat food. But I also think that is a by-product of the bad stigma the community has. People don't let them adjust, they don't give them the opportunity to learn how to do it properly, they don't put up with them long enough to hone their skills, they don't offer them advice, they don't do anything but take screen shots and bitch about it.

Too boot they don't even let RDM's who do posses the knowledge share it with others and try to give them a helping hand, hell this website is probably the worse of the bunch. Hell even on BG people give advice on how to increase DD potential of a RDM. I have talked about it numerous times here, every time it has turned into a flame war after the initial post. With the same stupid shit every time.

This community is pathetic sometimes, well most of the time. Ill tell you right now that a RDM/ whatever in a support/DD role will contribute enough damage to make his spot worthwhile. I have done it and seen it done. It is not impossible, its just the information always gets "muted". Hell i have a build that lets me get TP nearly as fast as a SAM. (<20 seconds to 100% TP with full haste buffs.) That leaves me plenty of time to cast a few hastes dia and cures, and still be able to open SC's. I have put a lot of money into gear, but so does every other class in the game.

But for the most part RDM/anything melee sucks when you expect them to main heal too, and just by saying that prooves you know shit about how/when/why to melee as RDM.

Good day.

[Shirai]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Just want to add you do not need hq staves any more. Fay Crozier ftw.

Erm: no.

Staff Trials - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more
Bahamut's/Fay are obsolete.

But before mentioning Fay we're still bridging a gap of 24 levels before, but NQ staves will do on that.

waa waa nonsensical wall of text.

Accession + refresh.
Learn it, love it and get your ass out of 2004.

Honestly, if you were a red mage in my shell, you wouldn't even pass trial with that attitude.
Itazura is still trying to be nice and I've been trying to ignore you, but can't anymore.
All the posts you make are about how much you dislike the way we play the game and how you think it should be played in your eyes.
Yet I haven't seen a single post actually showing that you know what you are talking about, and this last post of yours is all the more proof of it.

And what?! You don't want Refresh II because you are tired of cycles?

We're playing a game where group effort gets things done.
People like you only slow the rest down so;



Any form of intelligence I'd smack around the face with numbers, but you're not worth the effort.

Good day.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Not really, I am sure Red mage will get some extra spells in their repetoire.
But not giving red mage Refresh II while giving other jobs the option to refresh themselves would be a huge punch in the groin with a Morgenstern.
It's either that, or SE needs to make it that Refresh cannot be casted from a subjob.
Because if neither happens Scholar will be replacing all our beloved mage jobs completely.

Even if this were correct, I would feel sorry only for the White Mages.

However, every mage and their brother (barring Summoner, but that's something of an odd case) is going to want to sub Red Mage if nothing were to change in the Refresh spell department (and it seriously shouldn't). And even if they weren't, you'd need at the very least three MP users in the party to make Accession-Refresh worth it in the first place, ideally more. That the only Refresh-less MP-using jobs Dark Knight (which, if only they would use their spells more . . .) and Paladin (since apparently S-E hates the idea of them subbing Red Mage themselves), particularly since Blue Mage has Battery Charge now. Accession-Refresh would just be too niche, assuming Accession would even work with Refresh in the first place (lolHaste)!

People were in denial about Convert's subbability ever since the level cap increase was first announced, and lo and behold, Convert is yet subbable at full power! Refresh II would be mostly superfluous, not to mention just sending the wrong message entirely (oh, we're going to take Red Mages off of their permanent positions as back-line fixtures, and then, since we don't have any other ideas, we're just going to try to put them back there again).

[Shirai]

Re: Saying no to burns?

assuming Accession would even work with Refresh in the first place (lolHaste)!

It's not an assumption.
Accession works with Refresh.