Saying no to burns?

[Zoltar]

Re: Saying no to burns?

First, don't turn down burns. Second, I'd reccommend if you're 'anti-burn' to find other summoners and have actual smn parties. A full party of summoners while creating minimal lag can be a great xp party and a good means of skilling up!

[Chromemage]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Aren't burn parties kind of like winning the experience lottery?

So it might wear and tear on you a bit, and eat at your conscious for the foreseeable future... but take the damn burn parties!

[Romyro]

Re: Saying no to burns?

I am against Astral Burns…Partly because I leveled smn the traditional way and mostly because I’ve noticed in our pet shell that it makes some pretty baaaaaad Smns. Although you did say you were 75 at one point so maybe your case is different.

If you think this is an OK way to xp…more power to you and start accepting. If you’re gung-ho about max/hr hour…this is your answer.

I however don’t agree with this method. The xp is rather nice but it’s so boring and to me it just seems like one of those “Wasn’t intended to be used in that way” situations. I don’t care if I’m getting 3k xp an hour or 50k. I’d rather be doing something I enjoy. Sitting around waiting for someone to pull 100s of mobs then BPing a few times isn’t that appealing.

Other methods you could try are FoV pages or find soloing Smns/Bsts/Pups around your level (or sync with them) and do low man parting. In my experience, pet jobs work very well together.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Saying no to burns?

If the lag is the only thing that keeps you from summoner burning then you might want to consider lowering a your settings a little.
Another thing you can do is keep tabs on the target mob you use astral flow on, go into first person mode and look away from the horde of mobs that is about to be blown to pieces.

Turning down a good chunk of exp on a job that hardly gets invited to parties as it is already is a foolish thing to do in my humble opinion.
But it's up to you.

Wasn't really an issue for myself. I used to 2box on my laptop while burning, which was quite a feat with this damn thing.

Personally, I hate slow xp with a passion, and will do anything possible to avoid it. However, not everyone feels this way. Some play because they enjoy the journey from 1-75 (80... sorry that's just weird to me) and don't care about or want fast xp. Again, it makes no sort of sense to me, since I would rarely stick through a party that was moving slowly. Merits? 30k/hr or gtfo. But to each his own. If the dude doesn't wanna burn, he doesn't have to burn.

I’ve noticed in our pet shell that it makes some pretty baaaaaad Smns

Those people maybe just suck in general? Lol. There are plenty of people who are just bad at the game. No amount of normal leveling will fix that.

I'd have to say that SMN burning is probably only bad if you're the leech job, honestly. I've seen people burn PLDs and RDMs ... /facepalm ...

At least SMN burning on SMN means you somewhat learn how to summon. And really, SMN is not that hard of a job to play. I hardly ever used it, but I did end up bringing it to Odin and Tiamat a few times, and having burned SMN from 37 on up, I really didn't struggle too much to play it even in "high stress" situations. There are some jobs that you need to play for 60+ levels to get any kind of skill at it, SMN is not one of those jobs.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Saying no to burns?

SE says Astral Flow exp party is perfectly fine. Some players are against it.

If you're OK with AF exp, and you won't make in-game friends/family unhappy, go for it. If not, seek party and/or use Field of Valor.

It really isn't that big of a deal, either way; the more time you save using AF exp mean the more time you have to spend skill'ing up. That's not too bad when it's a melee weapon's skill or evasion, but skill'ing up Summoning Magic looks like a pain. Overall you'd probably still save time, but that looks like a lot of VERY boring and long skill up sessions.

* * *

The biggest concern of those against AF exp is the perception of how it produces gimpy, unskilled players.

However, it doesn't take 80 levels to learn how to play any job in different situations. AF burn doesn't produce bad players--it just attract the lazy (as well as the efficiency minded) players. I know some players who didn't AF burn their job that I'd replace in a heartbeat with a few players whom I know AF'ed half of their jobs to Lv.75+.

A motivated player who took the time after AF'ing job to Lv.75+ to skill up and gear before bringing it to events will be far more useful than the lazy, stupid players who leeched their way to Lv.75 in exp parties doing the minimum necessary to not get kicked out.

Last night, there was a WHM in my Lv.76 exp party who did 0 Regen, 0 Haste, and 0 Dia II, even when I was /heal on for MP on RDM. In that two-hour party, as a RDM/WHM, I maintained Haste x2, Refresh x2 (x3 each if counting myself), Dia III/II (when not hMP'ing), backup cured, tossed out 72 Regen II/I's , and pulled 95% of the time in that BRD-less party.

There's no doubt in my mind that if I were to AF exp'ed my WHM from 50 to 80, I'd still out perform that WHM even when half-asleep. And, I'd have /SCH instead of showing up to exp party as WHM/BLM like she did.

Able to exp to Lv.75+ without Astral Flow is no guarantee that a player is someone you'd want in your party or alliance.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Saying no to burns?

You know I think the idiot fostering problem isn't quite how people envision it.

People like to bicker about whether or not AF Burning creates gimpy players, but both sides tend to miss the point. Pro-AF folks say that idiots will be idiots whether they exp or burn their way up, which is true. On the other side they claim that rocketing players upward so quickly means they won't know what the hell to do with their job, which is also true up to a point.

The issue that keeps getting overlooked is that when an idiot player has to slog through exp parties, it increases the likelihood that they develop a reputation as a bad player. As the sever slowly begins to shun them they must either get better, or simply solo the rest of the way and retain their reputation, which leads to the rest of the server not having to deal with them because they know what a dunce said player is. If someone rockets a job to 75 in a week or however long it takes to AF Burn a job, they are an unknown entity. We can make educated guesses based on their performance on other jobs, but there's no slow build of a reputation of how the player performs. So what you end up with is some idiots weaseling their way into places they shouldn't be because there were no early warning signs during the exp slog.

Or I might be talking out of my ass again.

[Mhurron]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Reputation honestly means so very little to the vast majority of players. You could be the shittiest whatever one day, the next, they've completely forgotten.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Shitty players with shitty reps will always find shitty linkshells to accept them, so it doesn't even matter. Just read the BG checks ... even with all of the horrible things said about some people, people who ninja lot and loot whore, they still get accepted.

So yeah, agree with Mhurron, reputation means jacksquat.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Stop ruining my perfectly good theories with your inconvenient realities.

[Shirai]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Wasn't really an issue for myself. I used to 2box on my laptop while burning, which was quite a feat with this damn thing.

Personally, I hate slow xp with a passion, and will do anything possible to avoid it. However, not everyone feels this way. Some play because they enjoy the journey from 1-75 (80... sorry that's just weird to me) and don't care about or want fast xp. Again, it makes no sort of sense to me, since I would rarely stick through a party that was moving slowly. Merits? 30k/hr or gtfo.

Being a white mage main, I usually get overlooked as healer when it comes to exp and merit parties.
I don't have the privilege to be picky and say 30k or bust like bards, corsairs and to a certain extent even red mages can.
Sure I know I am more then capable to stand my ground in a high speed burn party, my LS mates know, but any random party would rather take a red mage as healer.
Hence when it comes to those rare parties I don't do with folks from my LS, I simply cannot afford to be too picky and will have to make due with less.

That doesn't mean I don't hold up any standards though, I hate exp with a passion so I expect an exp session to at least yield me 3 times the exp per hour I can get through soloing and campaigning.
Which means if my expwatch dips below 20k/hr I will start to look for faults and talk to people about it.
And if they aint stepping it up, I'm out.

But to each his own. If the dude doesn't wanna burn, he doesn't have to burn.

I absolutely agree, but if the only reason for someone to decline an invite for fast exp is the lag, that issue can be solved and he too can then enjoy leveling up ever so slightly faster.
Other then that, it's completely up to him, you are right.
Any 'moral' reasons however (basically the 'zOMG SMN Burn is teh evul of Vana'diel!!' bandwagon, Now also on FACEBOOK!!) I shall not tread with anymore then lols and facepalms because that poor horse has been beaten so much for as long as Astral burns has existed, with the same arguments from all sides that there isn't anything left for us to even call horse anymore.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Saying no to burns?

Reputation is useful info, but hardly reliable. Parser, though, tells me exactly which DD and healer I should keep, and which I should boot.

Had two melees in Dynamis who were out damage by some DRG's wyvern during one run. That spoke far louder than any reputation to me. (Yes, I raised hell after seeing that.)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Saying no to burns?

I approve of Astral Burns for one reason and one reason only: most Summoners just can't catch a break any other way.

Pity is pretty much what vindicates it. IMO.

[Elwynn]

Re: Saying no to burns?

I think burns are OK for leveling SMN and for skipping the d00nz. I'm not too amused about people who happily drop 200-500k per burn for a leech spot, but without the leech, the puller (when not a 2box for someone in the burn pt) basically gets zip for his effort.

Last night, there was a WHM in my Lv.76 exp party who did 0 Regen, 0 Haste, and 0 Dia II, even when I was /heal on for MP on RDM. In that two-hour party, as a RDM/WHM, I maintained Haste x2, Refresh x2 (x3 each if counting myself), Dia III/II (when not hMP'ing), backup cured, tossed out 72 Regen II/I's , and pulled 95% of the time in that BRD-less party.

What are the odds that the gimp WHM didn't even have some of those spells?

As a WHM, I that Regen III so much.

[Chromemage]

Re: Saying no to burns?

SMN is nobodies first job, and I'll take that further to say just about nobody takes a job to 30, unlocks SMN, then burns SMN up to 75 the same week. So, pre-burning they have some sort of FFXI skillset.

With that said, does doing experience parties teach you to play your job? Most mainstream camps primarily used nowadays only require you to have a good grasp of redundancy. Don't make the mistake of taking how someone plays in an experience party to how they play/react during missions, bcnms, Dynamis, or elsewhere.

Let the SMNs burn on!

[MrMageo]

Re: Saying no to burns?

However, it doesn't take 80 levels to learn how to play any job in different situations. AF burn doesn't produce bad players--it just attract the lazy (as well as the efficiency minded) players. I know some players who didn't AF burn their job that I'd replace in a heartbeat with a few players whom I know AF'ed half of their jobs to Lv.75+.

I can agree for second third jobs etc etc but your first job to 80 should be partied in my opinion. By burning you miss out on key points as effective enfeebling, buffing, mana conservation, when/when not to WS, mob abilities on common mobs, etc etc etc. These are all things you learn by being in a party, and all things that need to be known by anyone who considers themselves a skilled player.

Then there is the issue of the finer points of the job you choose to play, what to do when, how to do this, why to do that. While it holds true much can be learned in a solo situation not all of it applies to a party or parties or can be learned on a solo basis.

A prime example is the gimp RDM's who think they can coast by on healing and buffing only. Especially now with the rehash of old mobs, that can and should be enfeebled, can and should be nuked, and can and should be melee'd (to open a SC for a heavy DD to close in which you will MB.) I have been in many parties recently that are more traditional. RDM,WHM,PLD,2xDD, +BRD or COR or 3xDD. in this situation the RDMs who think themselves as only healers look like fucking retards, when they should b enfeebling + nuking , sharing buffs and healing, or enfeebling + melee, sharing buffs + healing. Now with all mages having a convert, there should be no reason for a RDM not to do all that stuff.

Similar thing goes with SMN's I have seen many many SMN's milk the healing role then cry about never being able to DD or Buff cuz there MP is always taxed. SMN/WHM is a support healer, SMN/RDM is a better support healer (at 80). If a SMN is not using a BP and Ward every chance they get then they are not playing the job properly. Hell a SMN should be on the frontline at times as well (mob permiting i.e. No AoE) using spirit taker WS and MP permitting, SC with the avatars.

It is like /SAM DD's who do not use Seigan/3eye to curb damage incoming. Or turn their backs for a second to slow hate accumulation. Instead they choose to /NIN which gimps their damage more than using seigan/3eye until the mob loses interest.

But then again there are shitty players, lazy players, who come from parties as much as AF. But if it is your first job, you are going to look stupid when you agro something that you have never been near and die, slowing down the party or event, because you have no prior knowledge except for waiting on the RDM or PLD to super tank in K-Tunnel for you.

Laziness breeds stupidity, and stupidity gets lulz.