Why do ppl go /SCH?

[Zoltar]

Since job traits don't stack (ie: Max MP Boost) Why do I see Summoners going /sch?

What advantages are there and how does it help the smn role?

[Takelli]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

At higher levels they get Sublimation which is bassically a RDMs Convert except it doesn't kill the sch. It can be used more as well.

They also get light arts/dark arts for when they want to heal or deal some magic damage.

They also get to beable to use Erase if I remember correctly as well which can save the Rdm MP if there is no bard.

[Zoltar]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

From what I've seen sublimation is around 150-200ish depending on when used, and is it directly related to HP/MP convert? Or just raw MP? Most smn's I've seen go /whm anyway so 'Erase' is almost always available. I'm lvl'n SCH right now to test it out, 30 in 2 days lol

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

Reasons are as follows:

Sublimation at 70+ (Earthen Ward will cover the damage)
Regen II
Access to most critical -na spells through Light Arts/Addendum White (no Stona, though)
Penury under Light Arts- 1/2 cost of white magic
Sleep
Aspir
Alacrity under Dark Arts - 1/2 off recast of previously casted Aspir (its a pretty big deal)
Dispel
Raise
Reraise

Essentially /SCH adds more MP endurance to SMN when coupled with Elemental Siphon and stacked sources of Auto Refresh. Alcrity/Aspir and Sublimation on top of the rest of that means a lot of MP endurance for SMN.

The the resulting MP from Sublimation is based on 1/4th of the users base HP. This can be tweaked with gear, but not food or HP%-based gear.

[Takelli]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

Errrr... I didn't mean Erase... I meant Dispel.

Also for the other reason's that BBQ said.

Sublimation is linked Directly to your Hp as well. The more Hp you have, the more MP you can get.

[Romyro]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

Also, i dont think you get auto-regen with /sch. So you can use conjurer's ring easily (another -1 to perp).

[Ketaru]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

...an unspoken perk of Sublimation is that it will keep you awake through Sleep effects because it is essentially DoT, if you don't leave it sitting at the cap.

[Zoltar]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

Thanks all for the replies, so I guess /sch would enable the smn to be a good buff/debuffer/DoT'er on the whole? (when not doing some awesome blood pact dmg) Am I right in saying that? And I'm not saying it would be like a brd/cor, but in general a good supporting buffer/debuffer/decent dd combo?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

Thanks all for the replies, so I guess /sch would enable the smn to be a good buff/debuffer/DoT'er on the whole?

/SCH gives you no debuff beyond Dispel, I think. (Not that Slow/Para from /WHM would be all that useful.) Also doesn't give you DoT (while /WHM gives Dia II), and would lose Erase compared to /WHM.

In actual usage, the biggest problem I've seen with SMN/SCH is the lack of Stoneskin w/out using a BP for it (and who'd want to keep bringing out Titan or to use 92MP just for one person's SS anyway?)--saw a SMN/SCH one-shotted just this past Saturday when she got close to a slime for BP as it used Fluid Spread. (Stuff like that happens a lot to that particular SMN. lol.)

Sometimes, it's also incredibly annoying for a RDM/WHM healer to be the only person in a party with Erase.

Personally, I rather a SMN go /WHM if there's a RDM in party and the RDM has the time/MP to Refresh the SMN, but I do concede that SMN/SCH is pretty functional until the HP drops to 0. (i.e. If a player is good at staying out of trouble and the party doesn't need another source of Erase, then SMN/SCH is a very strong combination.)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

/SCH gives you no debuff beyond Dispel, I think.

Addendum: Black should also give you Sleep.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

Addendum: Black should also give you Sleep.

Ah, there's that.

(I tend to file Sleep, Bind, and Gravity under a separate category in my head: "crowd control". But, yes, those are enfeebs.)

[Karinya]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

/SCH gives you no debuff beyond Dispel, I think. (Not that Slow/Para from /WHM would be all that useful.) Also doesn't give you DoT (while /WHM gives Dia II), and would lose Erase compared to /WHM.

Slow/para from /whm would be quite useless because SMN has no enfeebling skill. /SCH lets you make up for this with Arts, so you can actually land dispel or sleep (if you have the stratagem charge to Addendum and access them at all).

You do lose Erase, though. That's probably the biggest disadvantage compared to /WHM. But the importance of Erase is highly variable depending on what you're fighting and who else is in your party.

In actual usage, the biggest problem I've seen with SMN/SCH is the lack of Stoneskin w/out using a BP for it (and who'd want to keep bringing out Titan or to use 92MP just for one person's SS anyway?)--saw a SMN/SCH one-shotted just this past Saturday when she got close to a slime for BP as it used Fluid Spread. (Stuff like that happens a lot to that particular SMN. lol.)

Mentioning Fluid Spread reminds me that SMN/SCH also doesn't have barspells. But SMN/WHM's barspells -- and their Stoneskin too -- are seriously gimped by their lack of Enhancing Magic skill, anyway. Are there any SMN who cast Stoneskin often?

Anyway, if the most enmity-avoiding job in the game needs a new stoneskin, you can usually bet that at least one, probably several other party members do too, so EW would be preferable even aside from the skill issue.

Sometimes, it's also incredibly annoying for a RDM/WHM healer to be the only person in a party with Erase.

Personally, I rather a SMN go /WHM if there's a RDM in party and the RDM has the time/MP to Refresh the SMN

I think it's mostly intended for situations without a RDM. Sublimation stacks with Ballad and Evoker's Roll, just not with Refresh. So if you're using one of those alternate ways of sustaining MP (or nothing at all besides Siphon, Auto-Refresh and resting) Sublimation is very useful. B skilled Aspir is good too, against mobs where it can work (including pets in Dynamis, and everything in Campaign).

but I do concede that SMN/SCH is pretty functional until the HP drops to 0. (i.e. If a player is good at staying out of trouble and the party doesn't need another source of Erase, then SMN/SCH is a very strong combination.)

I agree. It's not what you want to sub in every situation, but it seems to me like a useful option to have available.

I'm not a high level SMN, though.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

Mentioning Fluid Spread reminds me that SMN/SCH also doesn't have barspells. But SMN/WHM's barspells -- and their Stoneskin too -- are seriously gimped by their lack of Enhancing Magic skill, anyway. Are there any SMN who cast Stoneskin often?

Yes on the SS; those SMN who leveled up via substantial amount of Carby soloing will remember SS and Blink. (The Korroloka Tunnel bunch... hmm. Well... I don't know.)

Barfira seems to work decently well from BRD/WHM against things like Goblins' Bomb Toss. It may not a WHM or RDM bar-spell, but hardly useless from SMN/WHM. Fluid Spread is physical attack, I thought; does barwatera help? (I try to use it just in case, but being often employed as the sole healer on RDM/WHM in Limbus, I can get quite busy...)

Anyway, if the most enmity-avoiding job in the game needs a new stoneskin, you can usually bet that at least one, probably several other party members do too, so EW would be preferable even aside from the skill issue.

EW on the party would be nice, but it depends on what else the SMN is trying to do at the time, what's being fought, and what's the setup. (For example, in the particular situation I mentioned, our melee DDs were all on /NIN, so EW wouldn't be too useful. Our SMN prefers to use Hastega for BP:Ward, too.)

I think it's mostly intended for situations without a RDM. Sublimation stacks with Ballad and Evoker's Roll, just not with Refresh. So if you're using one of those alternate ways of sustaining MP (or nothing at all besides Siphon, Auto-Refresh and resting) Sublimation is very useful.

Well, at least that SMN brings /SCH even when I'm in party as RDM. Some people want to be as MP self sufficient as possible, even at the expense of being somewhat death prone.

B skilled Aspir is good too, against mobs where it can work (including pets in Dynamis, and everything in Campaign).

Not true. Can't Aspir the Foritifications in CB. lol.

I agree. It's not what you want to sub in every situation, but it seems to me like a useful option to have available.

It's useful, but I'd ask SMNs to carefully think about the lack of SS and Erase. Even Curaga is nice to have sometimes against targets which tend to sleep the front line jobs.

[Armando]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

I too disagree on the subject of Barspells being seriously gimped on sub. They're less effective, no doubt, but the fact that the Barspell formula is 40 + (Skill/5) ensures that your barspells are never actually half-efficient at half skill; and early on, the difference is minimal. Taking only natural skill into account, WHM main Barspell is +95 resistance while sub is +61 at 75.

Then there's the fact that the Barspell is added to the player's magic evasion, so even if subbed barspell were only half as strong, it wouldn't necessarily mean it's giving you half the benefit.

Fluid Spread is physical attack, I thought; does barwatera help?

You are right, so no.

[Shirai]

Re: Why do ppl go /SCH?

EW on the party would be nice, but it depends on what else the SMN is trying to do at the time, what's being fought, and what's the setup. (For example, in the particular situation I mentioned, our melee DDs were all on /NIN, so EW wouldn't be too useful. Our SMN prefers to use Hastega for BP:Ward, too.)

Even on /nin melee Earthen ward is something that shouldn't be neglected, it's still ~200 damage taken per player that you do not have to cure.
Which is especially nice in case of a Mijin Gakure or -Ga spell going off.
It's also a 92MP from the pact vs. 120 MP from Curaga 2 tradeoff.

Besides if they can reach 299 summoning magic skill they cap out the Hastega duration leaving room for 2 more buffs.
Earthen Ward, in my opinion is one of the buffs that needs to go in the rotation if you're the main support.

It's useful, but I'd ask SMNs to carefully think about the lack of SS and Erase. Even Curaga is nice to have sometimes against targets which tend to sleep the front line jobs.

Scholar is an extremely effective subjob, by means of conserving and regaining MP.
It even brings a couple of extra spells with it which are occasionally helpful like Sleep and Dispel with the Arts stances helping to get skills high enough to actually land them.
However even though /SCH itself has some pretty nice support capabilities, for summoners taking the main support role /whm still reigns surpreme for those and other reasons given above.

Some people, ok a lot of people just tend to forget with all the benefits brought by a new subjob that other subjobs are still more useful in certain situations.