And once again.... NO Avatar!

[Raydeus]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

Jumbo Cactuar or don't even bother.

[Smndrue]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

it was great how they fixed the timer if mob moved out of range, but forgot to fix timer if mob dies before blood pact goes off. I just walk around in dynamis with Ramuh waiting on a monster at full health to unleash on and just pray it wasn't a ninja. MPK.

And yes this applies to BP wards as well. If you assault then bp ward (Like you're supposed to do when fighting imps) and your melees just unleash all at the same time resulting in a dead imp, Titan just stands there constipated. No Earthen ward, just annoying sounds and colors.

[Darkhound]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

Welll, I guesss we will have to wait and see untill the next patch!

[Sekighara]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

Well I think the summoner could get spells to equate to summonings they can't get. For instance like an image of bahamut which will have a mid range timer give killer effects and give an attack boost to party members and then have one that em powers avatars. Like an essence if you will so it will give them more power for instance Ifrit with essence of bahamut and maybe get the ability to use AMs and his attacks may have a chance of burn.

Now i would expect it to be a huge mana cost or hard to get. But I was thinking maybe of moving these onto merit list would make it more balanced. These are just ideas because a summoning was as strong as the party at the point they were gianed so maybe having the ability to power up the party will give them more strength as a class.

I could see these not getting used as a waste of mp and such or not strong enough to warrant a merit. But then again I think the fact that one summoner with fenrir wiped out the whole yagudo forces as they were dominating single handledly might be still on the minds of full time summoners. Seriously I heard of yagudo CBs where even with windursts full mage battalion the field get wiped so I really doubt one summoning can quash that.

Also if I remember correctly they said by next fan fest people will be asking how to use the new summonings. I thought that was really strange so maybe they are going to release a new system maybe like that of 12 where summons have pre set macros and have to do things to meet them which would allow for alot of power but alot of frustration, but I doubt that because pups frustration isn't rewarded.

[Darkhound]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

Also if I remember correctly they said by next fan fest people will be asking how to use the new summonings. I thought that was really strange so maybe they are going to release a new system maybe like that of 12 where summons have pre set macros and have to do things to meet them which would allow for alot of power but alot of frustration, but I doubt that because pups frustration isn't rewarded.

I also remember that they said that VERY VERY clearly! That we would be asking HOW to use them. Let's see

[Karinya]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

Karinya: SMN isn't broken. It's kind of lame though. In the same way that BRD is lame. Repeat the same buffs over and over. Riveting strategy. A fucking rainbow of avatars and they're of no consequence except for the usefulness of their pacts, which is more or less independent of what you're fighting. Don't you think that's pretty silly?

Yes, but I also think it's not true (especially the "independent of what you're fighting" part). People use the same buffs over and over because they fight the same kinds of mobs with the same kinds of party setups over and over. If you were fighting coeurls you'd find a lot more use for Spring Water. But people don't fight coeurls, mostly. If you were in a manaburn you could use Dream Shroud and celestial nuke IVs or merit BPs. But people don't invite SMN to manaburn much, AFAIK. BRD could use a major upgrade to status resist songs, but people would still avoid monsters with status attacks 99% of the time, so what difference would it make for the majority of fights?

I don't see how you expect to distinguish avatars other than through their abilities. There's not that many ways to sit there pounding on something, and there's even fewer *effective* ones. Some BPs aren't useful for anything and could stand to be fixed/upgraded, and some are so useful for everything that they crowd out some of the variety. But a SMN who uses the same BPs for *everything* they do is not very bright, IMO.

You can't force variety on players without a radical revamp of the system for starting and avoiding fights (it will be interesting to see whether or not XIV forces random and/or mixed encounters on players - I probably would, if it were up to me, if only to make sure that what I was creating played very differently from XI; but a lot of players don't like that idea either).


Avatars' resistances don't mean much in party play because you don't rely on avatars staying alive more than a few seconds. But if you're soloing something that uses the same element repeatedly it makes a difference. Worms come to mind. You might choose to use Carby or Fenrir anyway for their lower perp costs and, in Fenrir's case, stronger melee, but there's no doubt that Garuda resists worm spells better and that worms are weak to her nukes, if you choose to use them. Elementals or the avatars themselves are even stronger examples.

Actually most of our jobs are pretty lame to play and could use reinventing gameplay-wise (I'm lookin atchu, WAR). But alas, we probably won't see that either.

WAR is an ironic choice, considering it can reinvent itself by changing subjobs. The two reasons people don't do that much IMO: herd mentality (imitating what others are doing), and the tyranny of effectiveness (when the herd is right and some options really are gimp).

Players reinvented NIN almost as soon as it was introduced. But it's just using the same buff over and over, too (except for the rare NINs that debuff, but even then it's only a few options). Just like RNG is just shooting things over and over, and WHM is just healing people and removing debuffs over and over, and... OMG, this game is repetitive! I had no idea!

[Aylmer]

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According to the recent series of updates, it looks like SE is planning on job updates one or two job(s) at a time. I would wait and see by the end of 2009 or mid 2010 to see if SMNs will be left out. Although SE already made an update to SMN so there may be no further improvements until the next expansion.

[Armando]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

Yes, but I also think it's not true (especially the "independent of what you're fighting" part). People use the same buffs over and over because they fight the same kinds of mobs with the same kinds of party setups over and over. If you were fighting coeurls you'd find a lot more use for Spring Water. But people don't fight coeurls, mostly. If you were in a manaburn you could use Dream Shroud and celestial nuke IVs or merit BPs. But people don't invite SMN to manaburn much

That's not really what I was talking about. Of course you'll use Tier IV nukes against magic-weak mobs. Those mobs are radically different from your day to day cannon fodder at a fundamental level. It's kinda like saying "well, you can use Tier IV nukes on slimes!" Yeah, I know. But Rabbits are not Crabs are not Orcs are not Imps are not Colibri, yet half the time you'll use the same BPs against each one. There's a lack of variety within the group of mobs that don't have some obscure vulnerability. I find that lame. But I find many things in this game lame, so your mileage may vary.

I don't see how you expect to distinguish avatars other than through their abilities.

I just said how. Make avatars stay out, make each avatar have different properties while it's out, and make it so you can't take advantage of everything the avatar has to offer the very second it's summoned. There are no real trade-offs in the current system except for "which BPs do we want to spam throughout the course of this fight?" That's the ONLY consideration. That's about as deep as BRD gameplay, and BRD is fundamentally flawed in my eyes.

There COULD be more thought put into avatar choices, if the system had been made differently. We're doing Distortion? Maybe we should consider Shiva, she'll boost the damage of the SC AND the MB! But wait, the Summoner could recover MP by having Ifrit get hit by Bomb Toss. But wait, Fenrir is more accurate and boosts the other DD's damage. And Leviathan can help us recover from the Bomb Toss damage.

When summoning an avatar implies some sort of commitment - you need to keep it out to get its full benefits, instead of being able to toggle constantly and mix and match any pacts you need, the choices aren't so trivial. That's part of why BLU has depth. It can do a shitload of things, but it can't do them all at the same time. I mean, neither can SMN, but in reality all SMN does is choose pacts to cycle as much as their timers will allow, instead of picking avatars to use.

Avatars' resistances don't mean much in party play because you don't rely on avatars staying alive more than a few seconds. But if you're soloing something that uses the same element repeatedly it makes a difference. Worms come to mind.

Too bad solo content has always been second place to group content in this game, by a wide margin. The job should be at least as engaging in a party as it is solo, if it wasn't meant to be a solo specialist.

WAR is an ironic choice, considering it can reinvent itself by changing subjobs. The two reasons people don't do that much IMO: herd mentality (imitating what others are doing), and the tyranny of effectiveness (when the herd is right and some options really are gimp).

All jobs reinvent themselves through subs. Not a very compelling argument. But that's not really what I was addressing. WAR was, from its inception, touted as a master of all weaponry. We all know how that works in practice, thanks to the way the game is designed. It's not the only job, though. PLD, for example, is also trapped into sword and shield. The game is designed in such a way that weapons only offer a certain amount of DoT and a certain amount of WS damage. As long as those are the only considerations, one weapon will always reign supreme over all others.

[Karinya]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

That's not really what I was talking about. Of course you'll use Tier IV nukes against magic-weak mobs. Those mobs are radically different from your day to day cannon fodder at a fundamental level. It's kinda like saying "well, you can use Tier IV nukes on slimes!" Yeah, I know. But Rabbits are not Crabs are not Orcs are not Imps are not Colibri, yet half the time you'll use the same BPs against each one. There's a lack of variety within the group of mobs that don't have some obscure vulnerability. I find that lame. But I find many things in this game lame, so your mileage may vary.

So... your tactics are the same except when they're different?

I think the crabs probably don't belong in that group (you might be better off *not* using a physical attack on them), but even if they did, there's hundreds of mob families, they can't all be radically different from all of the others. All the mobs you listed except crabs are monsters that are fairly vulnerable to physical attacks, so if you want to attack them, physical attacks are often going to be a good choice. And so are buffs that improve the party's physical attacks. This isn't rocket science, it's the limited variety of mobs that players choose to exp on (and the lack of incentive to go off the beaten track).

If you fight more dangerous mobs with a SMN, you'll probably see them use more defensive and recovery abilities and fewer physical-damage-enhancing buffs and direct-damage attacks and nukes. But there is no incentive to fight dangerous monsters for exp, so you only really see this at endgame events and in areas like Nyzul where you can't pick your enemies.

I just said how. Make avatars stay out, make each avatar have different properties while it's out, and make it so you can't take advantage of everything the avatar has to offer the very second it's summoned. There are no real trade-offs in the current system except for "which BPs do we want to spam throughout the course of this fight?" That's the ONLY consideration. That's about as deep as BRD gameplay, and BRD is fundamentally flawed in my eyes.

I don't see how "which avatar passive buff do we want?" is deeper than "which 2-3 enhancing BP effects do we want?". In fact, it's shallower because you can only choose one.

SMN is the only job that *can* change "weapons" during a fight, practically speaking, and you think that's *less* dynamic than having to pick one and be locked into it for a long period of time to get a benefit?

There COULD be more thought put into avatar choices, if the system had been made differently. We're doing Distortion? Maybe we should consider Shiva, she'll boost the damage of the SC AND the MB! But wait, the Summoner could recover MP by having Ifrit get hit by Bomb Toss. But wait, Fenrir is more accurate and boosts the other DD's damage. And Leviathan can help us recover from the Bomb Toss damage.

Who does skillchains anymore? But in any case, in the current system you use Fenrir to boost everyone's accuracy and *then* switch to Shiva to MB, and if you get hit by bomb toss, then switch to Leviathan to help recover. (Or just Leviathan to MB and then help recover if necessary, since unlike BLM, avatar nukes of all elements are generally equal at a given level aside from resistances and MB compatibility. This actually would depend on the mob type, though - against crabs or fish you would strongly prefer Shiva to MB even though both are compatible.) Trying to guess in advance which avatar you're going to need isn't (IMO) a superior system than changing to the avatar you need right now.

In any case, players would quickly find out which of those options produced the superior overall performance against the mobs being fought, and enforce it on each other. That's why BRD and COR use the same buffs a lot, too. If the party setups don't vary (outside of substituting similar jobs for each other) and the mob choices don't vary (or vary only among mobs that are weak to physical attacks and have no dangerous attacks of their own), the tactics can't vary with them. That's why I proposed a system to give players an incentive to fight different types of mobs instead of imps and colibri last week, imps and colibri this week, imps and colibri next week, imps and colibri forever. But until we have it, physical damage is king, and under your proposed system, whichever avatar provided the biggest effective boost to physical damage would be the one used 90%+ of the time in exp.

It's because avatars are light on commitment that SMN can mix and match and provide several abilities at once. If they were heavy, it would be more like PUP where you have to choose (in PUP's case, design) your pet once for the next 20 minutes. (Puppets don't have party-wide buffs, but if they did, you know which ones would be used the most.) If you really prefer that system, you know where to find it, but I don't think it would improve SMN to work that way.

When summoning an avatar implies some sort of commitment - you need to keep it out to get its full benefits, instead of being able to toggle constantly and mix and match any pacts you need, the choices aren't so trivial. That's part of why BLU has depth. It can do a shitload of things, but it can't do them all at the same time. I mean, neither can SMN, but in reality all SMN does is choose pacts to cycle as much as their timers will allow, instead of picking avatars to use.

The BP timer is a commitment. That keeps you from doing everything at once. Choices revolve around that. Avatar auras would be different from BPs, but I don't think they would be better.

I don't think you quite get that you can "use" an avatar even after it is released, if it provided buffs and debuffs that are still in effect. Maybe you haven't played enough support role jobs or something. Just like the bard that is out pulling, the avatar that has been released still contributes to the fight through the effects they provided that are still affecting the fight.

By that measurement a SMN often has multiple avatars "in use" at once. They're just used for something other than melee attacks.

BLU has a lot of potential for versatility, but in most exp settings they don't get to use it. Sounds more similar to SMN than different, to me.

(Snipped the rest - I mean, complaining that shields are useful to a tank? WTF?)

[Armando]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

All the mobs you listed except crabs are monsters that are fairly vulnerable to physical attacks, so if you want to attack them, physical attacks are often going to be a good choice.

Oh please. Everything in this game is vulnerable to melee attacks by default. Even crabs can be plowed through with 4 DDs with a bit of extra effort (unlike slimes, which you'll never plow through physically ever.) Doesn't really matter what it is. 90% of this game's mobs have minimal stat divergence and the only thing setting them apart is their TP moves.

If you fight more dangerous mobs with a SMN, you'll probably see them use more defensive and recovery abilities and fewer physical-damage-enhancing buffs and direct-damage attacks and nukes.

These choices are always the same regardless of the nature of this dangerous fight. Earthen Ward, Spring Water, I'd say Aerial Armor but that's not as important these days with the widespread adoption of /NIN.

I don't see how "which avatar passive buff do we want?" is deeper than "which 2-3 enhancing BP effects do we want?".

Use your imgination a bit.

SMN is the only job that *can* change "weapons" during a fight, practically speaking, and you think that's *less* dynamic than having to pick one and be locked into it for a long period of time to get a benefit?

1) Summoners don't really use their weapons. They're never out. They stand their with their metaphorical weapons unsheathed, then draw it once a minute for a weapon skill.
2) As long as the only restriction is a timer, the gameplay will always be repetitive and the choices will always be trivial. They essentially play like BRDs, the only difference is that they have a much bigger MP pool to abuse and thus can afford to throw Cure more often.

Giving each BP its own timer, and tweaking the BPs so not all of them are as effective at 0 TP as they are noww, means the fight isn't as easy as "oh, status ailment? Let me throw Spring Water once a minute." If you want Spring Water then I hope you're using Leviathan, that you can afford to make the switch and lose all the TP you've lost on a different avatar.

Trying to guess in advance which avatar you're going to need isn't (IMO) a superior system than changing to the avatar you need right now.

It's only not a superior system if it's executed as half-assedly as half the game's starting jobs were designed.

In any case, players would quickly find out which of those options produced the superior overall performance against the mobs being fought, and enforce it on each other.

The lines between which options are better can ALWAYS be muddled.

The BP timer is a commitment.

You enjoy twisting words. It's a commitment to the Blood Pacts, not the avatars. How nice.

It's because avatars are light on commitment that SMN can mix and match and provide several abilities at once. If they were heavy, it would be more like PUP where you have to choose (in PUP's case, design) your pet once for the next 20 minutes.

Except a SMN could still switch avatars as needed. It just wouldn't be cost-free ("Avatar TP? Why would I need that?")

If you really prefer that system, you know where to find it, but I don't think it would improve SMN to work that way.

That's kind of like if I suggested a BRD fix and you said "If you wanted a buff/debuff system that required more thought and active participation, COR and DNC is over there ---->." Not very compelling.

I don't think you quite get that you can "use" an avatar even after it is released, if it provided buffs and debuffs that are still in effect.

Pretty deep metaphor there. But the fact that the avatar's usefulness extended past the moment it used the BP doesn't mean you're actually using it. Paint the picture with words as prettily as you want, it doesn't change that fact.

BLU has a lot of potential for versatility, but in most exp settings they don't get to use it. Sounds more similar to SMN than different, to me.

No, BLUs don't use their versatility because they don't feel like it. There's really nothing stopping them. Party members are apathetic enough to not give a damn what the BLU is equipping except perhaps Wild Carrot and Head Butt. SMN is like RDM in that it can do a lot of things, but it can't make use of all its tools at the same time, yet in any given situation it finds itself repeating the same handful of spells.

(Snipped the rest - I mean, complaining that shields are useful to a tank? WTF?)

Again,it seems you're not really trying very hard.

Let's see. There's Clubs. Clubs don't require losing a shield. But wait, they suck.
There's Great Swords. Oh wait, even if I wanted to do raw damage, I'd still do more with a sword! Huh. Isn't that funny?
There's staves! They're...yeah, they're just for Spirit Taker. Oh well.

So let's recap. I have 4 weapons that ought to be viable. In practice only 1 is viable, with the other seeing occasional, very situational usage for the pure purpose of MP restoration (if there was a way to Spirit Taker without swinging for 1 minute, people wouldn't swing a staff at all.) Sounds an awful lot like WAR. Hmmmmm...

But eh! Whatever. I tried. You win. I'm gonna be out of town for 5 days so even if you retorted I wouldn't be here to answer and discussion will die before I get back.

[Vadrace]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

I don't see how "which avatar passive buff do we want?" is deeper than "which 2-3 enhancing BP effects do we want?". In fact, it's shallower because you can only choose one.

When I think passive buff, and having it out to maximize what you get, is not really shallow. Instead of using the same BP's, and just cycling through your avatars for said bp rotation, you would have more concern for your pet like a bst. And which bonus you choose to go with would go with what your group setup is. I think it would add a lot of depth to it. I guess what I'm trying to say, its it would probably create more of an attachment to your avatars, instead of them just being the middle man for a spell you're casting. I've always felt that smn never really felt like a real smn. The cycling of pets to get to spells, to me, feels like I'm just another mage, casting a spell, except I have to wait longer for it. I think its a great idea, but mostly because I've always wanted it to be that way.

[Karinya]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

Oh please. Everything in this game is vulnerable to melee attacks by default. Even crabs can be plowed through with 4 DDs with a bit of extra effort (unlike slimes, which you'll never plow through physically ever.) Doesn't really matter what it is. 90% of this game's mobs have minimal stat divergence and the only thing setting them apart is their TP moves.

I don't think it's actually that high in mob family terms, but certainly 90% of the mobs people choose to fight for exp, yes. This says more about the nature of exp than the nature of any specific job. A SMN-specific change can't fix a global problem.

1) Summoners don't really use their weapons. They're never out. They stand their with their metaphorical weapons unsheathed, then draw it once a minute for a weapon skill.

You keep coming back to the idea that the only way to "use" a summon is to have it visible on your screen meleeing something. That's just weird. Especially considering that "using" a weapon that way (i.e. autoattack) is the most boring and repetitive thing you can possibly do with it. All the interesting gameplay in the game comes from spells and abilities. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what SMN use their avatars for.

2) As long as the only restriction is a timer, the gameplay will always be repetitive and the choices will always be trivial.

The timer isn't the only restriction - you just pointed out MP. Timers and MP are the main restrictions on almost all spells and abilities in the game; the only other ones I can think of are TP, ninja tools/ammo, and limited stacking slots (BRD, COR). TP are just an indirect form of timer that depends on your accuracy to refill; duration and recast impose the equivalent of stacking limits anyway; and there's no way SMN need the hassle of dealing with reagents.

I can't think of any electronic game that isn't repetitive on some level. Hell, non-electronic games too. Baseball is just one f*ing pitch after another, how can anyone stand it? Chess and go have books written about the positions that reoccur in one game after another. Some people manage not to be bored by this.

The triviality of the choices ties into the repetitiveness, I think - once you know the answer, the question isn't very interesting next time. It's hard for a computer to keep coming up with new things to throw at players, and devs have to put in weeks of work to make a 5 minute fight, so that's been a problem with MMOs as long as they have existed. If you have a solution, I'm sure SE would be interested, but I don't see what it has to do with SMN (other than, obviously, it would affect everyone in some way or another). It could be argued that Nyzul and MMM are attempts to address this problem - their content isn't *completely* static - but clearly, they are at most partial successes, since the mobs found there are basically the same as those found elsewhere in the world, and the only thing in doubt is which kind you're going to find.

Of course if a player goes into a new challenge blind, they'd probably use a strategy similar to what worked at something else they did. Then the player would be the one imposing the repetitiveness.

They essentially play like BRDs, the only difference is that they have a much bigger MP pool to abuse and thus can afford to throw Cure more often.

I don't know any SMNs or any BRDs that would agree that the two jobs "essentially" play like each other. They, uh, do things that affect the stats of other things? That's a lot less similar than any two DDs. SMN cure more (or at least they can). They nuke (using avatars) a nonzero amount. They're a lot less effective at crowd control. They have very different methods of pulling when they do it at all. They use a lot of MP, and as a result, spend a fair amount of time sitting. They usually don't try to split buffs and provide different ones for the front and back lines, mainly because of recast and duration issues, and as a result, they don't have to spend much time or effort on positioning. These are not obscure or trivial differences that only arise in 1% of fights.

Giving each BP its own timer, and tweaking the BPs so not all of them are as effective at 0 TP as they are now, means the fight isn't as easy as "oh, status ailment? Let me throw Spring Water once a minute." If you want Spring Water then I hope you're using Leviathan, that you can afford to make the switch and lose all the TP you've lost on a different avatar.

Well, if I'm fighting something where I'll need Spring Water, then hell yeah I'm going to be using Leviathan.

I think I know where this is going - if I want Earthen Ward, I'll need Titan, if I want Spring Water, I'll need Leviathan - but then I just end up choosing based on my expectations of the fight, however far in advance I have to make the choice. In the long run I know from experience (my own or someone else's) which is probably going to be better and use that. And the only difference in the end is inability (or higher cost, or lower effectiveness) to use BPs from another avatar, lowering SMN's versatility for no benefit I can see.

Either you haven't thought this through, or I really don't understand your explanation. It sounds like you're suggesting something like WoW Warlock, where the cost of switching is so high you practically can't do it in combat at all. But most of Warlock's abilities *don't depend on the pet* - which is crucial, because the class has to be able to function with only one pet for a whole fight. That's a radically different job from SMN, and I don't think making SMN more like that would be a good idea at all. (PUP is kinda sorta like this - can only change pets every 20 min or after resting to full HP, but unlike Warlock the only abilities outside the pet are melee and whatever you get from SJ - but that's an excellent reason *not* to make SMN more like that, because having jobs be different from each other is good.)

The main problem with situational usefulness - for exp - is that you can choose what to fight. Players exploit the hell out of the highest payoff {players, monster, tactics} combinations and ignore the rest. This isn't Pokemon or a SMT game where you have to be prepared for whatever the game chooses to throw at you. (Well, some areas are. But if you were talking about those we wouldn't be discussing how SMN does the same thing all the time, because in those situations, it doesn't.)

But eh! Whatever. I tried. You win. I'm gonna be out of town for 5 days so even if you retorted I wouldn't be here to answer and discussion will die before I get back.

This discussion will never die, as long as some players want SMN to be a completely different job than SE wants it to be. Search for New Posts will be around no matter how long you are out of town, too. But if you're not interested in continuing, fine.

IMO, the lightness of avatars - the ability to change between them quickly and cheaply - is a core part of FFXI SMN's class design. If you want a job that isn't like that then you want *a different job*. If it is implemented at all, I think it should be implemented *as* a different job, not by burning SMN-as-it-presently-exists to the ground and building your dream job on the rubble. And if you like that job better than SMN - fine! That's why MMOs have different jobs that play differently to appeal to different people, and content in which they work together to do stuff.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

Weather Effects? Come take a nice close look at my Grimorie for a second. Closer, closer. WHAM! Stay away from my SCH abilities, thank you. Oh and passing out AoE Stat buffs would be mega-fail. One word: Fenrir. He already does it. That and SCH has to merit for the right to +7 your stats.

Lame enough BST's Terror is beaten by BLUs Jettatura. You've heard the endless whining about Phalanx II, let's not go down the same road in new ways, please.

Refresh? RDM would like a word with you. BRD and COR wouldn't feel threatened at all, we don't spend MP on that stuff to start with.

Enlight? WHM and RNG would beg to differ. WHM kinda gets it, RNG is the king of light proc effects and I'd very much perfer it stayed that way. There isn't even a reason behind wanting Enlight other than just wanting it. It would be a joke next to Holy Bolts more than likely and where does this get SMN, exactly? Is there something else useless that we'd like to pull out of our asses here?

What SMN really needs isn't less perputation. Just pact adjustments, longer durations to their buffs and maybe some lowered pact cost or something in the realm of a Conserve MP-ish trait that exclusively affects pacts.

BST and PUP get to keep their pets out all the time? Those pets cost some gil, my friends. SMN can summon pets so long as they have MP. MP is the only cost related to your pet. DRG has to give up HP to maintain their Wyvern. Each job has a different approach and pets are maintained differently in each one. If SMNs want to have avatars out for free then I want SE to lift all the charm restrictions, especially in Sea and Sky.

Either way, that's not going to happen.

What the job needs is already in the job, it just needs a little smoothing out and some exclusive abilities and traits to enhance the job itself. All the updates have been pretty exclusive ones aside from the addition of Sublimation a year and a half ago. Let buff duration increase with summoning skill, give them a conserve MP trait or Parsimony-like ability exclusively related to avatar pacts

SE tends to take an idea and reverse-engineer it to apply it to a different job rather than steal outright from other jobs. That's generally a very good practice and allows a job to retain its identity. Let's stick to that.

[Aksannyi]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

Weather Effects? Come take a nice close look at my Grimorie for a second. Closer, closer. WHAM! Stay away from my SCH abilities, thank you. Oh and passing out AoE Stat buffs would be mega-fail. One word: Fenrir. He already does it. That and SCH has to merit for the right to +7 your stats.

HAY FUCK YOU, YOU STOLE MY AOE -NA SPELLS. GTFOff my toes! BITCH!

Nah, all kidding aside, all jobs kinda step on each other a bit, it was something that would have been really awesome and unique if it had been part of SMN all along, but well, it wasn't. After FFX I was pretty disappointed in Summoner anyway, even fully realizing the limitations of an MMO. But it's not going to change, certainly not this late in the game. I do enjoy speculating about "could have beens" though.

I think in the time that I had SMN to 75, I used it twice. I partied with it to 37, and I was SOOOOOOO bored with the PLs we had, just BPing every minute, then resting. SMN is borrrrrrrring to level. I burned it up to 75 so I don't know how it plays at 75, but I can't imagine it gets any better. And I personally get frustrated as hell when I have cure spells and I'm expected to use them but they're nowhere near as good as what I'm used to on WHM and I don't even get half of my spells with /WHM anyway. Ick. I feel for all the people who leveled SMN from 1-75 the traditional way, that takes some serious fucking patience.

I still don't think there's really a fix to SMN, honestly, to balance it in any good way with other jobs. It's not so great as an MMO game, unfortunately. Unless you somehow relied on the jobs in your party to cast certain avatars (which would suck, where's that PUP when you need Ifrit? lol) there's no real incentive for SMNs to care about parties, honestly. Main healing sucks, and most parties well into their 60's bring at least a Hastebot PL anyway. SMN is about as interesting as watching your grandparents age.

At this point, it's probably too late to do anything to fix SMN to any satisfactory level. If they release SMN again in some capacity in FFXIV, maybe they'll have some new ideas up their sleeves, but I don't think it's changing much in XI.

Still, some incentive to keep avatars out and meleeing would be kinda hot. Something.

[Karinya]

Re: And once again.... NO Avatar!

Why are some people so obsessed with avatar melee? Do you just like staring at Titan's ass? Autoattack is boring and it really isn't any more exciting when an avatar does it than when you do it yourself.

The interesting and cool abilities are what? Blood pacts. So if SMN needs any improvement at all, what would be the best thing to focus on? Blood pacts. If it gets a new avatar, what would be the most exciting part of the new avatar? Its blood pacts!

So what are the ones that aren't used much and how could they be improved? (I'm leaving out pacts that actually do get used often, and straight DD, which may become obsolete in favor of a higher level DD pact, but that's probably intended and not so bad.)

Shining Ruby: May actually be underappreciated for what it does, but it couldn't hurt to make it cheaper.

Glittering Ruby: Excessive randomness and cost holds it back. People don't want to pay a serious amount (or even tie up the timer) for a buff that might be useless. Either raise the potential amount, duration, or lower the cost.

Crimson Howl: A cool idea, but much too expensive for what you get.

Megalith Throw: Is this still bugged to always miss or do very bad damage? If so, at least put it in line with other DD pacts.

Whispering Wind: More expensive and less effective than Spring Water. Heck, it costs almost as much as Healing Ruby II. Basically the effectiveness of Curaga for the cost of Curaga II. Cut the MP cost in half and it might be used.

Frost Armor: Spikes on multiple people is just not that useful. In most cases only one person will actually benefit: the one being hit. Low fixed damage spikes are not that great a benefit to begin with. If you're going to keep it, at least make it cheap.

Sleepga: Mainly hindered by the long time to summon before you can use it, which is a pretty serious drawback for a crowd-control spell but an unavoidable one for SMN. Also, Nightmare is cheaper, lower level, and does the same thing plus a DoT that doesn't break it.

Lightning Armor: See Frost Armor, except this is even more expensive.

Nightmare: The cost is reasonable, but summoning time is still a problem. Since I haven't seen it used much IDK what the resist rate is like, but that could be an issue too. Theoretically, with Diabolos pre-summoned, this could be pretty useful in some situations, but in practice I never see SMN use it, which suggests there's something wrong with it besides the obvious.

Ultimate Terror: For once I'm not going to say "make it cheaper", since it's already pretty cheap. But randomness means you'll need HUGE potential effects to make it really worthwhile to take the gamble of using BP:W on this rather than something else, in practice. Players will go to great lengths to get +10 STR, but -10 mob VIT doesn't attract the same attention (although maybe this is just failure on players' part, if the mechanics are the same either way). And UT doesn't usually even get as high as -10.

That's more than a whole avatar's worth of BPs that could use some work.