Refresh and leveling past level 60

[Sir Cledwin]

With the new Elemental Siphon ability (and assuming a character has Summoning Magic capped) how necessary is it do you think that a character have a refresh ability on equipment at level 59+. Please note I am primarily referring to the Vermillion Cloak. I mean come on, Blood Pacts that count really cost between 27 - 118 MP at level 60 and 118 is alot of MP by any standards to recover simply by 2 to 3 MP per tick. Wouldn't it be more useful to have a huge chunk recovered via a Elemental Siphon after using a Blood Pact of that nature... or simply resting whenever you have a free moment to recover a few MP (especially if you have hMP +10 to +20 via Dark Staff and other hMP equipment and food)?

At least that is just how I feel about the issue. I don't honestly know how useful refresh is when it comes to recovering MP that has been lost in as massive an amount as we are talking, especially when we as SMN's have the ability to recover it at a significantly fast rate. I mean a 5 minute recast time may seem alot, but it really isn't from what I can tell. Especially if your recovering 200+ MP each time!

[Feenicks]

Re: Refresh and leveling past level 60

I levelled quite happily to 75 without any Refresh pieces, it's all about managing your MP wisely. From 59-75, you'll be attacking primarily with Double Slap and Tier-IV spells until Eclipse Bite at 65, and your buffs will be either Ecliptic Howl and Earthen Ward. Hastega only if the party absolutely demands it because it's a huge MP sink.

In between Blood Pacts, or when the party is fully buffed (or buffed enough to get by well enough), you can sit to get MP back. Make sure you're swapping in enough +hMP equipment.

Now, this being the SMN forum there are probably plenty of people wondering what planet I'm on because I haven't mentioned the supposedly copius amounts of healing that SMNs do. Strangely enough, I never was asked to main heal once in my entire career of levelling SMN. Of course, in the absence of a WHM you can contribute to the healing, along with the RDM, BRD, BLM, DNC or SCH.

With Elemental Siphon, you'll have more than enough MP to get by. Make sure your Summoning Magic skill is capped and you have most (if not all) of the elemental spirits.

*is a proud member of the 'Vermillion Cloak is quite overrated' club.

[Sabaron]

Re: Refresh and leveling past level 60

Math Error: See below

Well, I don't think it's overrated... Each point of refresh you have creates less resting downtime. You can regain mp while standing. If you're standing up for a 2/3 of your time, you'll net 80 more MP per minute. A Cure III costs 48MP and cures 180HP or 3.75HP/MP, so that's an extra 300HP per minute on your cure output at 66% Standing Time.

Is Vermy necessary? No

Is Vermy good? Yes

[Sir Cledwin]

Re: Refresh and leveling past level 60

there are still some people who would argue that it is necessary. It would be to those people whom the statement that Vermy is overrated goes to more than anyone. However I would be in agreement with you that Vermy is indeed Good. However I firmly believe that it is not absolutely necessary. For this reason I do not see the point in shelling out 600k+ just to get a cloak that adds +1mp per tick when I can get that from Sanction just as easily. Sure it might be helpful during parties that are based in areas where Sanction is useless, however it is still going to be in Sanction areas where most of the post-59 parties occur.

On the other hand capping Summoning Magic skill is the real trick. I am not entirely sure where all to do that. I am still trying to work out where to go to cap Summoning Magic Skill. I am about 60 levels behind the max skill cap for my level... so it is going to be a while before I get capped.

[Armando]

Re: Refresh and leveling past level 60

Well, I don't think it's overrated... Each point of refresh you have creates less resting downtime. You can regain mp while standing. If you're standing up for a 2/3 of your time, you'll net 80 more MP per minute. A Cure III costs 48MP and cures 180HP or 3.75HP/MP, so that's an extra 300HP per minute on your cure output at 66% Standing Time.

Is Vermy necessary? No

Is Vermy good? Yes

Of those 80 MP, Vermillion Cloak is only responsible for 20, if you never swap it out. I do think that's overrated, though it's not bad by any means.

[Feenicks]

Re: Refresh and leveling past level 60

The fastest way to level your Summoning Magic skill is just to level SMN like you usually would. From 60-75 I was always about 2-4 levels behind the cap through regular usage. Keep using your Rage pacts where you can and Fenrir's Lunar Cry too, since Blood Pacts that target enemies will skill up based on the mob's relative level and so if you skill is badly underlevelled, those pacts will give you more common and greater increases, maybe even a few 0.4 or 0.5's.

Actually one good point about Vermillion Cloak is Carbuncle soloing - there are a few level ranges where you can maintian a 1mp/tick Refresh effect on yourself with Carbuncle out if you have a Vermillion Cloak and an Apollo's Staff. But as has been stated before, Sigil/Sanction can do that for you too.

[Sabaron]

Re: Refresh and leveling past level 60

Of those 80 MP, Vermillion Cloak is only responsible for 20, if you never swap it out. I do think that's overrated, though it's not bad by any means.

Oops!


I didn't mean to count any other auto-refresh. I just flubbed my math.

I forgot to account for tick-size (3 sec).

The actual equation should be

60/3 * 2/3 = 13.333MP per minute

13.3333 * 3.75 = 50HP/minute of healing with Maxed Cure III.

That's still 3000HP/hour from the vermy. My assumption is that you'd be wearing something like Errant during the rest period which provides a better mp/time than 1 tick of refresh.