Smn/sch

[Sabaron]

Re: Smn/sch

EDIT: Also dont scholars get access to aspir? YOu havent really included it in your formulas

SCH does get Aspir and it is not included in OP because I have no reliable statistical data on average mp returns, and such data would invariably be target and application specific. To put it succinctly, there are too many variables to determine a generic rate of return unless you apply rigorous constraints and collect data over a significant number of trials (e.g. limit yourself to G. Colibri).

[Khidir]

Re: Smn/sch

Something to add you can simply use regen or in sch case regen II to negate the -hp from sublimation easily...

21mp for 115hp regen

and regen II for more 5hp tick for X amount.

I've been considering this thanks for starting the thread

[Omniblast]

Re: Smn/sch

I've been playing smn/sch for campaign.
I have no hard facts or anything to use for a party scenario, however I'll try to use /sch for a party and report back.
It does keep mp a bit higher, but not notably higher than normal. Considering that Elemental Siphon has helped a lot as well.

[Karinya]

Re: Smn/sch

One thing to look at is resting efficiency.

A level 75 Summoner has Clear Mind V.

It's reasonable to expect a 75 SMN to have these items:

Dark/Pluto Staff: hMP+10
Errant Houppelande: hMP+5
Heirarch Belt: hMP+2

This is a worst-case scenario for resting, as there are quite a large number of other +hMP items, but they're harder to acquire.

Sublimation returns (# of ticks active + 1) x 2 MP during its charging phase.

From a time-based standpoint:

Sublimation vs. /heal:

Tick 0: 2 vs 0
Tick 1: 4 vs 0
Tick 2: 6 vs 0
Tick 3: 8 vs 0
Tick 4: 10 vs 0
Tick 5: 12 vs 0
Tick 6: 14 vs 44
Tick 7: 16 vs 87

Things get pretty lopsided after that. Realistically, then, if you have time to spend /healing for at least 6 ticks, it's always a superior option for MP to end Sublimation and start /healing, even for a single tick of rest, rather than opting to keep Sublimation up.

Now, obviously there are times when you have a pet out anyway and you have no option to /heal - this is where Sublimation shines.

Hold on a minute. What do you mean by "tick"? Refresh and regen effects (traits, drinks, songs, gear, whatever - it's all lumped into one number that's applied at once) use a 3 second tick, but resting uses a *9* second tick (plus the startup delay). You can see this very easily by resting with refresh on - you get refresh, then refresh, then refresh followed by rest, repeat. (This is why hMP body items have big amounts like +5... if they were 3 or less you'd be better off resting in VC/Dalmatica/etc., and SE knows it.)

On the other hand, you've subtracted 1 from your second rest tick instead of adding 1.

(Otherwise see the rest of this thread on stoneskin+sublimation, etc.)

I agree that if you have to interrupt Sublimation to rest, and you expect to be able to get some nonzero number of rest ticks before needing to stand again, then you should go ahead and interrupt Sublimation. But resting isn't *quite* as awesome as you're implying.

[Icemage]

Re: Smn/sch

Hold on a minute. What do you mean by "tick"? Refresh and regen effects (traits, drinks, songs, gear, whatever - it's all lumped into one number that's applied at once) use a 3 second tick, but resting uses a *9* second tick (plus the startup delay). You can see this very easily by resting with refresh on - you get refresh, then refresh, then refresh followed by rest, repeat. (This is why hMP body items have big amounts like +5... if they were 3 or less you'd be better off resting in VC/Dalmatica/etc., and SE knows it.)

On the other hand, you've subtracted 1 from your second rest tick instead of adding 1.

(Otherwise see the rest of this thread on stoneskin+sublimation, etc.)

I agree that if you have to interrupt Sublimation to rest, and you expect to be able to get some nonzero number of rest ticks before needing to stand again, then you should go ahead and interrupt Sublimation. But resting isn't *quite* as awesome as you're implying.

That's what I get for posting in the middle of the night without enough sleep and not double checking my math. :p

Base MP recovery while healing is +12 on first tick. With Summoner's Clear Mind V, that increases to +27, +3 every tick thereafter.

+17 in hMP items generates a raw total of +44 in the first tick, +47, +50, etc.

Corrected figures

Sublimation versus Resting (resting ticks):

Tick 0 (start): 0 vs 0
Tick 1 : 6 vs 0
Tick 2 : 12 vs 0
Tick 3 : 18 vs 0
Tick 4 : 24 vs 0
Tick 5: 30 vs 0
Tick 6: 36 vs 44
Tick 7: 42 vs 91
Tick 8: 48 vs 141

Different numbers, same conclusion. If you're going to rest long enough to get even a single successful tick of rest on Summoner, it's better to opt to rest than to activate Sublimation (assuming you don't have an avatar or spirit out preventing you from resting in the first place).


Icemage

[Nuriko]

Re: Smn/sch

I think the resting tick is 10 seconds, actually ... if I'm keeping an eye on something with a 3-second tick and a resting tick, they line up differently each time.

[Icemage]

Re: Smn/sch

I think the resting tick is 10 seconds, actually ... if I'm keeping an eye on something with a 3-second tick and a resting tick, they line up differently each time.

3 "refresh/regen" ticks = 1 resting tick, always, though the timing isn't always in sync (depends on when you activated each).

You can tell with a Red Mage - everyone in your party will pick up MP at different moments even if Refresh is on all of the above.

The timing match is easy to tell on a Tarutaru mage using a Auto-Refresh trait or gear, though.


Icemage

[Sabaron]

Re: Smn/sch

Well, since we are now aware that Stoneskin absorbs Sublimation damage and allows you to rest, you can actually do both at the same time by using Earthen Ward. However, that doesn't really fit with the idea of the more "active" SMN that I was originally proposing. The idea is to use sublimation to allow a SMN to "cycle" like a RDM and rarely if ever rest. The idea was to allow SMN to be less reserved with their avatar use and be more "Summony" than "White Magey".