Blood Pact Overhaul

[Rain_Blade]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

All I'm gonna say is, as far as I know, SE doesn't know what to do with this job just as much as we do. They're scared to touch it.

[MrMageo]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

I would be too, IMO it works fine, it dosent really need anything except for maybe the TP idea petryx had in another thread. It certainly dosent need to have lower timers, or seperate timers as that would just increase MP consumption more, and SE has already solved that issue that plauged SMN through siphon and /SCH @ 70

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

All I'm gonna say is, as far as I know, SE doesn't know what to do with this job just as much as we do. They're scared to touch it.

People said that about BST, hell, I said that about BST.
People said that about PUP.
People said that about DRG.
People said that about SAM.
People said that about RNG.

SE has improved them all and mostly by means the players didn't dream up. They understand the jobs better than you think they do. After all the great changes they've made to other jobs, its sickening to see SMNs still playing the bitter bitch.

[Kitalrez]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

I'm sorry if this has become an "Everyone hates Malacite" thread for you, but the problem with debates is that people aren't supposed to win them IRL. You don't score points for good arguments, or force the other person into submission. You discuss things and hopefully each side learns something at the end. Aristotle was full of crap. The problem with this thread is that we've had this discussion before. We had it on every single SMN board out there before BP Rage and Ward went in. This was the discussion that brought them about. You're not creating a new concept, you're just messing with the numbers we've already hashed out. The problem is that as soon as you split timers further you end up with this:

X number of SMN go into Limbus/Dynamis... and take over. Everyone can get relic, everyone can get AFv2, ancient currency of all types becomes easy to obtain, the market for other items in this range is dragged down as a result, and this drags down every item leading up to that point as well.

It used to be that the best way to solve any end-game problem was to throw more BLMs at it. BLMs got adjusted to fix this. We don't want to be the new universal tool job. You can't really divide ward or rage any further without starting us down that path. Say you take out the over 65 pacts from your calculation or just split them off? Give them a new category we earn at 65 SMN... what then? The more you split, the more menus we have to navigate. To the end that it takes us even longer to pull off a skillchain. Then people start missing them, we get blamed, no one wants us around except for end-game. These things have a tendency to backfire, you need to consider this.

I understand your pain at the mid levels, we've all been there. But the fix you're proposing breaks more than it fixes. It's gotta be timers in your opinion, and no, it doesn't. If you're going to fix things, try fixing spirit timers or avatar damage and accuracy. If carby hit as hard as that THF using knuckles at the Dunes levels? Sure, we'd be a decent enough DD again. Little fixes overall would help you, but not overpower or nerf everyone else. Think of a new job ability. Think of new adjustments to thinks. But give the timers a rest. They're as fixed as they can be without breaking things, stop messing with them.

And if that came off as "Malacite's a jerk and I hate him", then sorry. It's just not a good idea, and a quick search of similar threads like this from long ago will show that it wasn't a good idea back the first couple times it was proposed either.

[Malacite]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

I'm not taking it as an attack on me, but rather that every single response seems to find faults in everything. I haven't seen anyone else suggest anything good, just shooting down all my ideas. Every time I come up with one thing, it seems to piss someone off so I figure "okay, what would offset that" and then that idea in turn gets shot down... etc

Put Simply: SMN just is not fun. Keeping avatars out is impracticle and there are other jobs that can do the same things SMN does much more efficiently. I don't care WHAT FUCKING ROLE I GET PUT IN, so long as it involves summoning the gods to do my bidding.

That's what's drawn me to the job from day 1 (FF3~11) calling forth all these awesome creatures to do cool stuff. Forgive me if I don't find the prospect of using a couple of abilities here and there and then just tossing out cures terribly exciting. Nor do I want to solo or build all my own parties and EXP at a crawl just to do so.

Waiting 69 levels to do any kind of decent damage with pacts is utter BS too. I absolutely hate the way SE has handled the job in this game (RDM too but I'd rather not get into that)

Icemage or anyone please just close the god damn thread. I'm sorry I even brought it up.

[MrMageo]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

Acctually there are no other jobs that can do everything just as effectivley as SMN, except SCH which does it with spells not avatars. SMN is a gold job and is extremley fun if you like the support style thing. If you dont like it then yes SMN is boring, but so will RDM,WHM,SCH,COR,BRD.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

People said that about BST, hell, I said that about BST.
People said that about PUP.
People said that about DRG.
People said that about SAM.
People said that about RNG.
People are saying that about RDM.

Sorry, obligatory fix. :/

[Murphie]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

Yeah, but those people don't count, YM.

[Nuriko]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

Try main healing a PT with a DNC in it ... you can get much more play out of your avatars then. Better yet if there are skillchains going on, you can start or finish (though I have yet to figure out the timing for finishing) most of them, or MB onto a SC you know is coming...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

SE isn't afraid to touch RDM, its just not a major priority and I think its pretty obvious why - RDM has it good and other jobs needed fixes first. Same goes for BRD, job has it good, it should be a lower priority fix. I'd question SE's priorities of either job was first in line.

I understand people can get pissy over thier main job being overlooked, but I've reached the point where I have so many jobs to play with that I stopped feeling like my main gets overlooked. In time, my main will get updates like my other jobs have. Its not SE's fault if you have a "one and only" job, that's your fault.

Additionally, DNC and SCH are doing what SE set them out to do and that is alleviate the main healing situation. It doesn't get RDM and SMN 100% out of main heal duty, but the jobs are proficient enough to share the load, hell, SCH can carry the load on its own quite well.

Its just going to take a bit of time for these jobs to penetrate the core of the game, which they most likely will since both have been immensely attractive to players and SE gave a lot of incentive for players to at least level them as subjobs.

Problem is, for the RDM and SMN that didn't mind main healing, the addition of SCH is a major kick to the balls thanks to the last update. You're not needed for healing and if you're not needed for that on ToA mobs, what are you needed for?

Sometimes its complaining for a fix to the situation that screws you more.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

SE isn't afraid to touch RDM, its just not a major priority and I think its pretty obvious why - RDM has it good and other jobs needed fixes first. Same goes for BRD, job has it good, it should be a lower priority fix. I'd question SE's priorities of either job was first in line.

As always when you start talking against Red Mages, you always say something that makes me go "wut?"

All us Red Mages have been pressing for is something that suits the flavor that S-E proposed: Jack-of-all-Trades, master of Enfeebling, NOT master of Refresh-whoring at 41 onward, where newbie Red Mages (who don't take the time to lurk a bunch of forums) don't realize what they are getting in to before it's too late.

I don't care what you or Itazura have to say on that, but if that isn't a bait-and-switch, then I don't know what is.

Oh, and for Bards? They are fine as is: the only update promised for them is a single-target ability for their songs. That benefits certain other jobs more than the Bard itself (Ranger and Paladin come to mind); all the Bard gets out of it is more friendliness with the aforementioned jobs.

I understand people can get pissy over thier main job being overlooked, but I've reached the point where I have so many jobs to play with that I stopped feeling like my main gets overlooked. In time, my main will get updates like my other jobs have. Its not SE's fault if you have a "one and only" job, that's your fault.

Right, it's my fault that I don't have all the time in the world to try out each and every job. Maybe I am the reason I don't just get out and get me a Maat's Cap right now . . .

Really, if any job has been pretty much neglected for more than four flippin' years now, then I'll be pushing for an update for them, as well. See, we were already at the back of the line, but all the other jobs keep cutting in front of us for seconds . . . and thirds . . . really, if they have time to keep constantly adjusting main damage-dealing jobs, they could at least do a little something more for Red Mage.

And you know what? I think they are getting ready to. Scholar is the perfect job to inherit the backline support mage of Magics Black and White duty. It's even in their flavor: their AF "weapon" is a spell. I think S-E is just getting themselves more and more poised with little things like Scholar and Sublimation before they can do anything with Red Mage that would get them a crapload of backlash from those who would rather keep us as their Refresh/Haste mongers. But, this is all mere conjecture from my part. All I know is that S-E intends for us to be on the frontline at least some of the time, and I don't think it's going to be too long before we see a few adjustments to make it happen.

Heck, we have been waiting for over four years.

Additionally, DNC and SCH are doing what SE set them out to do and that is alleviate the main healing situation. It doesn't get RDM and SMN 100% out of main heal duty, but the jobs are proficient enough to share the load, hell, SCH can carry the load on its own quite well.

Its just going to take a bit of time for these jobs to penetrate the core of the game, which they most likely will since both have been immensely attractive to players and SE gave a lot of incentive for players to at least level them as subjobs.

Problem is, for the RDM and SMN that didn't mind main healing, the addition of SCH is a major kick to the balls thanks to the last update. You're not needed for healing and if you're not needed for that on ToA mobs, what are you needed for?

Sometimes its complaining for a fix to the situation that screws you more.

That last comment reminds me of something you said earlier on: something about "Red Mage has been kicked in the balls with the Scholar buff, maybe they just Stoneskin up, but they'll feel it later." If you read my conjecture above, you would see that my opinion on the matter is far different from yours. You said yourself Red Mage is a complicated job, and maybe S-E is just working at the knot little by little until they are ready to completely unravel it. But, maybe it's incomprehensible to you to think of a scenario where Red Mages get what they want, the Red Mages get something more in their flavor. If it takes a nerfing first, so be it: we are regarded as too powerful a job, but I'd trade all that power in order to play the job I signed up for.

Now, about the main healing: the only thing that peeves me about Red Mage main healing is the fact that Red Mages are never asked to do much else, pretty much putting their versatility to waste. Does they mean they shouldn't be able to main heal? Of course not. We have the spells, the only thing is is that we shouldn't be able to replace White Mages so easily.

Summoners, on the other hand . . . that job is screwed up in so many ways, I can't even begin to imagine, and I cringe when I see people say that it's the Summoner main healing, instead of the MP/WHM that's actually doing the job. At least Red Mages (as Red Mages) are and should be capable of doing the job by themselves, but Summoners, they aren't even doing it as Summoners! Why do you people list SMN as a candidate AT ALL for main healing when it isn't even in their native capabilities?!? You all are assuming /WHM or /SCH when you do that, but how is one newbie supposed to know when they take up SMN/BLM and try to main heal with Carby? They WERE told, after all, that SUMMONERS can main heal!

Summary: with Red Mages, main healing shouldn't be the best option, as per the jack-of-all-trades theme (technically, even Paladins have a better Healing Magic Skill than us, but that's neither here nor there), but with Summoners, it shouldn't even be an option AT ALL until doing it via Summoning Magic becomes viable; main healing is, thus, a FAR bigger issue with Summoners than with Red Mages.

[Malacite]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

Ty YM. TYVM. m(. _ .)m


Oh yeah, while we're on the subject, MNK and BLM haven't gotten jack shit in 4+ years either (except nerfs)

BRD does need something though. Not just that single target JA (Which is sorely needed for when you have a PLD and no RDM @_@ seriously it is not fun) but a few more songs maybe. Something to do other than lolmarch or lolminuet or lolballad... @_@;;;

SE's already said they've noticed the trend of ppl using BRD as little more than a puller who can buff and wanna step in (thank god) so we'll wait and see on that one.

[Murphie]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

YM, it's not your fault that you don't have time to try every job, but hey guess what? It's not SE's responsibility to accommodate you either.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

Summary: with Red Mages, main healing shouldn't be the best option, as per the jack-of-all-trades theme (technically, even Paladins have a better Healing Magic Skill than us, but that's neither here nor there), but with Summoners, it shouldn't even be an option AT ALL until doing it via Summoning Magic becomes viable; main healing is, thus, a FAR bigger issue with Summoners than with Red Mages.

Main healing isn't the best option for RDM when the mobs are IT++, take it anywhere else but T or VT camps and you'll see that.

Problem is, RDMs are willing to go with the flow, doing the ToA camps to the point they won't see that, ever. They'll never enfeeble or Magic Burst in ToA camps because it isn't neccessary to do so. I used to MB all the time on RDM, now no one SCs, but at least its starting to pick up now a bit more now that they're less resisted.

RDM and SMNs are invited as healers because they allow the community to do so. Additionally, RDM and SMN cried so much about the "issue" that SE made more healer-types to allieviate the need for healers and free up RDM and SMNs to do thier thing.

Problem? Most ToA PTs want one mage and now, they have a mage thats self-sufficient enough not to need Refresh and more proficient at healing than both jobs.

[Vatic]

Re: Blood Pact Overhaul

Ok, please dont bit my head off for this. But I am not sure a BP overhaul would work, if more useful BPs were put in, we still have the limitation of about 2 BPs a min, if you introducte a new BP timer, MP use goes through the roof like formentioned.

At this time I do not see SMN getting reworked, in SE's eyes, I think the job is pritty much as they want it. The problem is how the comunity uses the job.

For example, last week end, I got a party invite for a 56-57 party. There wasnt many people seaking, so I accepted. Later to my horror, I relized I was the only Mage in the party, no RDM, BRD, WHM, BLM. And to cap it all off, no real tank.

It took us about 4 hours to get 14k xp. And lots of deaths insued. When people look at SMN, they think Cure III tank. But what they dont relize it that our Cure III is based off our Subjob. In this party, I would best describe it as I was my Subjob (WHM 28) with 1000 MP trying to keep a lvl 56-57 party alive.

When people are building a party, for healing smn is at about number 4 on this list, after WHM, RDM and SCH. For DD, we are behind most other jobs. I mean woot Shiva and do 800+ with Double slap, but for me thats once a min. I was talking to a lvl 75 BLM yesterday, and he can out damage a lvl 75 SMN , cause we can only do damage once a min, he can do 1k damage every 10 seconds. For support, we can do hastega and stoneskinga, which helps. But BRD, COR and RDM will always get picked before us.

The real DD for a SMN is in SC's. dropping a magic burst on using a 2 hour for crazy damage. In all the time partying there has been only 1 party were I was able to practice this. And that was at lvl 54. But again, like mentioned before, no one is doing SC's anymore. as soon as a person has 100TP, they let it rip for fast kill.

I restarted this game just over a year ago, because I wanted a lvl 75 Taru SMN. Today, even tho that lvl 56 is my highest job, I am thinking of giving up on lvling it. I am fed up with getting 3rd class parties. If I wait for the right invite, then I would never lvl.