summoner update ideal.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: summoner update ideal.

This topic again.

Okay, you're a level 75 Summoner, what are your thoughts on this?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: summoner update ideal.

Okay, you're a level 75 Summoner, what are your thoughts on this?

Would be interesting to hear a fresh voice with backing of experience.

Improving current abilities of smn so that the damage curve isn't dealt such a heavy blow. Missing attacks, and so forth are part of it as well.

Exactly what kind of accuracy and damage output do the Avatars give presently? I've seen Garuda outputting some impressive damage in certain BC fights and on some poor Imps.

(Kinda regret tossing the parser data I had a few days ago while duo'ing with SMN. *sigh* I was spamming all sorts of enfeeb spells on RDM, but Garuda held the Imps solidly after just one BP. She's like a tank... with wings...)

If the mob is not close enough for the attack to land, the mp should not be consumed for the blood pact.

Don't think so; if monster moving can waste my TP when I'm trying to use a weapon skill, it can and should waste your MP if the party/alliance do not have the coordination to anchor the target in place.

We don't need less incentives for teamwork, that's for sure.

Perpetuation, decreasing it.

I'd prefer a more holistic approach, and see exactly what the situation is for MP recovery over time, MP consumption over time, damage/MP ratio for both typical and optimal play scenarios.

Then, I'd want the same data for BLM and BLU, and compare, since those are the other magic DDs.

If SMN is getting substantially less damage/MP or have significantly more MP flow problem, then maybe perpetuation cost should be adjusted. Or, maybe the avatar should be more damaging. Or, some combination of the two. However, any calls for radical changes should be backed by solid data and analysis.

[Telera]

Re: summoner update ideal.

I agree that we need solid data on MP changes, but by and large most anyone can see Summoner is in need of a big something.

I'm a level 62 summoner and have finally gotten to the 'I'm so sick of this' point. I've been levelling my alt more than I've even looked at my Summoner in weeks. It isn't curing, I don't mind that really, provided we had more options within our avatars to do it.

I think what bugs me is more so than many other jobs, Summoner is more defined at present by its subjob for at least 65-70 levels. If that's not a sign of a problem, nothing is. A job shouldn't only start to shine in the last 5-10 levels. That's boring as fuck to even bother to level. Sure, Garuda can hurt imps, but until Predator Claws, I almost never use her in party. Blink-ga is useless b/c everyone is /nin anyway.

Now, even if we were to get more Curing abilities via Carby overhaul, or even Leviathan, I would still sub /whm because I enjoy having that sub. But I would also like to see Summoning Skill matter for something w/o having to cap+beyond. Though, if it starts scaling down they might need to stop making skill ups so damn hard to come by unless you sit in besieged spamming meteorite. In regular exp, I still hardly pull down any skill ups. And that was in a party where I actually got to mostly buff and DD for once. I think I saw maybe 3 skill up messages the entire time. I wouldn't mind fighting EPs to skill up (as opposed to summon/release for hours) so long as it was actually fruitful.

As Mal said, the problem isn't the good BPs, it's the fact that so many are useless as hell. The only pacts that pull off damage worth the effort pre-65/70 is Double Slap (if you're lucky) or maybe Meteorite. Double Punch seems about as variable as Double Slap, but there you go. Good damage against a HNM or in a BC is not even remotely useful. The majority of any player's time isn't spent in either of those situations. Especially during the levelling up phase.

An avatar (short of Carby) costs too much over time to leave out to deal damage. Their DoT fails next to any decently equipped DD. Most BP damage is outdone by WS. And people cry about giving mobs TP if you do leave them out. Perhaps if the damage done was worth it the rest of the party wouldn't mind so much.

And now that I've rambled (and likely made no sense because I've got a migraine *again* and had to take stupid pills that make me funny *again*), I'm going to go back over there and level my tarutaru bst...

[Malacite]

Re: summoner update ideal.

All the more reason for some of the changes I proposed, like using Titan Ifrit or Gaurda to tank.

It wouldn't really be unbalanced either (save perhaps in a SMN burn unless when an avatar dies all it's enmity is transfered to the SMN) given the MP cost to keep them out and depending on the avatar used, varying hate thresholds.

I think we an all agree that the biggest problem with SMN is the lack of viable summoning. I might actually enjoy main healing if i got to do it through Carbuncle/Leviathan/Alexander/Phoenix/Garuda rather than /WHM.

I'm not saying /WHM shouldn't help in this, just that it shouldn't be the main emphasis. Like any sub job, it should be there to supplement our abilities, not act as the core.

[RandomKG3]

Re: summoner update ideal.

I've wanted to be a smn ever since the English/American beta and having achieved the goal of obtaining nearly everything with the job that I've ever wanted, I have to say that there are a couple of things which could be remedied about the job. First and foremost, what I see most lacking is a niche within an XP party. SE has expressed disappointment/annoyance at how smn is played and so has the player base, so let's examine that.

Right now smn is basically a stand-in for whm within a party for the first 65 levels or so worth of XP. The reason is because we're basically seen for our sub, a half level whm with a whole ton of mp. The slow casting times is something most XP parties are willing to deal with until the late 60's into the 70's when damage becomes too high for a smn to keep up with alone with just Cure III's. Let there be no doubt in anyone's mind that nothing will change this or the continuation of this trend unless SE releases changes that make the smn more appealing in a different role than healer. What role might that be? Well, that's more up to SE than any of us, but DD has been proposed. So has support, but since we're already capable of being support right now and it hasn't fixed anything about the whm situation, it's something that can be debated whether or not more support role reinforcement and changes will actually do anything except encourage the continuation of smn as a substitute whm with XP parties.

A lot of endgame smns will tell you, smn doesn't really start until level 70. In some ways, the perception of our job as an endgame DD really cements this in the mind of many players. Recent FF games also stand to shoulder some of the blame in this perception, as one of the frequently used techniques to quickly run through the more recent FF games is to summon your avatar and wipe the board clean all the way through to the end of the game. Increasing avatar damage for smns level 1 - 69 would certainly encourage pushing smn into a DD role, something most players don't necessarily object to, but is that what SE wants for the job?

I think ultimately this is the central question on everyone's mind. Most players have reached the point where they don't care what role smn gets slotted into, they just want SE to make up their mind and enact the changes they keep promising to get the job to where they want it. Living in the shadow of another job for 60+ levels is not fun. Granted, you can make it interesting for yourself if you're creative, but nonetheless smn has never classically been a healing job and I think both the players and SE recognizes this. Many jobs are not defined by their subjob and can function without it or with a different subjob. Summoner as it is played now, however, is strongly defined by white mage as a sub. Any changes that can perhaps help move smn away from this, I think will go a long way towards making everyone happy. Until then, all of those level 69 and lower smns will just have to endure and try to reach 70+ as quickly as possible and maybe pray SE enacts more drastic changes for the lower levels.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: summoner update ideal.

Okay, I think we've reached a unanimous decision on the matter: all we want is Summoner to not be defined as its sub.

We don't care if they end up DD-ing, Healing, Supporting, or doing something completely out of left field, so long as they do it as a Summoner, and not a /WHM + MP.

We also agree this problem is most prominent pre-70, which is arguably of equal importance to endgame.

I personally say think that the Spirit patch announced at the fanfest is just another "beating around the bush" fix; at the very least they stated that they still intend Red Mages to visit the frontline, and they didn't even acknowledge so much as such a statement of intent for Summoner. All we heard was "additions to Spirits and new Avatars."

I hold by my theory that S-E is still afraid of making Summoner too powerful.

[Telera]

Re: summoner update ideal.

I still hold to my theory that adding more avatars is another band-aid on a compound fracture. And the spirit thing just seems to be a sub-par idea at best. If they let us refresh MP, they're still offensively not worth much.

Really, all that new avatars adds is yet *more* stupid quests and fame and hard ass fights for a fledgling summoner to have to go do. Not to mention likely having to level enough to go through more of AU or CoP in the process. These additions are turning summoner back away from being 'newbie accessible'. If said newbie takes the time to do the mini-forks, they could have, at one point, been able to set themselves up and be of use to their party.

But now you have Diabolos. And heaven knows what else is coming, which will probably require tearing through CoP or WotG.

Here's a hint, SE: Whatever path you take, fix summoner. I don't want new avatars. I want my job to be useful and defined as a summoner and not its sub. After you get that right, I might be bothered to go fetch yet more minimally useful avatars (Diabolos ring a bell? Even when a summoner has it I almost never see it used)to complete my collection. But if they're just more rehashing of barely useful blood pacts, or downright useless until Endgame kiting... I'm really not interested.

I want summoner to be enjoyable *pre* endgame, not just at it.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: summoner update ideal.

That "newbie accessible" thing is a huge flaw with Summoners. You practically need another job at 75 already in order to be a decent Summoner.

Carby Mitts, anyone?

[Akashimo]

Re: summoner update ideal.

Lets not forget Fenrir, AND Diabolos x2

[Malacite]

Re: summoner update ideal.

Okay, I think we've reached a unanimous decision on the matter: all we want is Summoner to not be defined as its sub.

We don't care if they end up DD-ing, Healing, Supporting, or doing something completely out of left field, so long as they do it as a Summoner, and not a /WHM + MP.

We also agree this problem is most prominent pre-70, which is arguably of equal importance to endgame.

I personally say think that the Spirit patch announced at the fanfest is just another "beating around the bush" fix; at the very least they stated that they still intend Red Mages to visit the frontline, and they didn't even acknowledge so much as such a statement of intent for Summoner. All we heard was "additions to Spirits and new Avatars."

I hold by my theory that S-E is still afraid of making Summoner too powerful.

Which is exactly the case. Sage Sundi himself (I think it was him) has gone on record saying that's the core issue with SMN. They know it's always been one of if not the strongest job in each of the games it's been in and that balancing it in XI is especially difficult (basically they want to avoid the invincible BLM scenario)


However it seems their too chicken shit to even try.

[Bolla]

Some of the things I hope to see maybe a 0% chance of happing.
CARBUNCLE: Level
Healing Ruby 1 (will have a regain effect.)
Poison Nails 5
Poison Nails II 43
Shining Ruby 24
Glittering Ruby 44
Glittering Ruby II 60 (Randomly enhances two attribute for party members within area of effect.
IFRIT :
Blaze spikes 29
Flare 62
TITAN:
Quake 54
LEVIATHAN
Flood
GARUDA:
Tornado 52
SHIVA:
Freeze 50
RAMUH:
Burst 56
Thats just a few at the moment.

How about they recover hp when they get hit by their own magic like the other final fantasy games.

[Omniblast]

Some of the things I hope to see maybe a 0% chance of happing.
CARBUNCLE: Level
Healing Ruby 1 (will have a regain effect.)
Poison Nails 5
Poison Nails II 43
Shining Ruby 24
Glittering Ruby 44
Glittering Ruby II 60 (Randomly enhances two attribute for party members within area of effect.
IFRIT :
Blaze spikes 29
Flare 62
TITAN:
Quake 54
LEVIATHAN
Flood
GARUDA:
Tornado 52
SHIVA:
Freeze 50
RAMUH:
Burst 56
Thats just a few at the moment.

How much MP is THAT gonna cost me?

How about they recover hp when they get hit by their own magic like the other final fantasy games.

You mean using Evoker's Bracers? That's basically what it does.

Honestly, I'd rather see their abilities be increased, instead of this weak pansy crap that we have now. Most of the blood pacts that we have pre 70 are a joke, and even after 70 with merits, their still a joke.

Even Astral Flow, big deal I can hit a group of enemies for 1k damage, but are they dead? No. They progressively have gotten harder, while are abilities still suck.

[Rain_Blade]

Re: summoner update ideal.

Some of the things I hope to see maybe a 0% chance of happing.
CARBUNCLE: Level
Healing Ruby 1 (will have a regain effect.)
Poison Nails 5
Poison Nails II 43
Shining Ruby 24
Glittering Ruby 44
Glittering Ruby II 60 (Randomly enhances two attribute for party members within area of effect.
IFRIT :
Blaze spikes 29
Flare 62
TITAN:
Quake 54
LEVIATHAN
Flood
GARUDA:
Tornado 52
SHIVA:
Freeze 50
RAMUH:
Burst 56
Thats just a few at the moment.

How about they recover hp when they get hit by their own magic like the other final fantasy games.

Honestly, it wouldn't really matter to let our avatars have ancient spells because SE will just make it weaker than a blm's ancient spells...and we've all (summoners who have obtained the tier spells) have seen the tier spell's damage compared to a blm's tier spell...not pretty. Although, if you have enough TP, you could match a blm's tier spell damage but that's risking MP to be drained when meleeing for the TP.

SE just needs to change Summoner completely. The majority of ideas that come up gets rejected and it's rejected because it may not fit with the other functions of a Summoner. It really is a challenge to figure something out so that everyone's happy, but we're stuck having like a poison to our MP that can't be erased until SE does something.

[Bolla]

Re: summoner update ideal.

Here's another ideal
How about removing the avatar mp drain when the avatar is out
allow the avatar to hit hard like a warrior. an avatar can improve there weapon skills by attack an mob. new skills for summoner.
once the avatar get 100 tp they can use there blood packs without costing any mp.
make it so when they use there 2 hour they will have 3 special icons on the screen, if the avatar use 1 searching light he/she will have 2 icons left with a 1 min recast time. they can still lose mp while using there big attack. the 3 icons can last 1 hour.(very sleepy)


If there avatar tp is below 100 there bloodpacks can cost mp like always.

[Eiyoko]

Re: summoner update ideal.

Here's another ideal
How about removing the avatar mp drain when the avatar is out
allow the avatar to hit hard like a warrior. an avatar can improve there weapon skills by attack an mob. new skills for summoner.
once the avatar get 100 tp they can use there blood packs without costing any mp.
make it so when they use there 2 hour they will have 3 special icons on the screen, if the avatar use 1 searching light he/she will have 2 icons left with a 1 min recast time. they can still lose mp while using there big attack. the 3 icons can last 1 hour.(very sleepy)
If there avatar tp is below 100 there bloodpacks can cost mp like always.

For one, removing perpetuation would probably screw over tons of things in the game. Carby mitts, relic pieces, austere robe, staves, etc all lower perpetuation. I like how perpetuation works; if you think of it in a RP sense like I do it fits better.

Avatars don't use weapons (save for Ramuh, but if you read his story on the old Japanese Tribune you'll see wherehowandwhy), and having them skill up to learn new weapon skills would mess things up depending on how each summoner plays.

Also, not all blood pacts are physical. Some are spells, and if I'm not wrong, spells are never based on TP (some Blue Magic spells don't count).

For your idea on Astral Flow I have almost no clue what you are talking about. Astral Flow's affect itself lowers perpetuation to zero and unlocks the Astral Flow blood pacts; as you can tell the Astral Flow blood pacts are not the only things that come with the 2-hour's effect. In higher levels people tend to only use the 2-hour to save MP because level 70 blood pacts do insane damage that tends to match or exceed the Astral Flow ones. The main difference between Astral Flow Blood Pacts and the level 70 Blood Pacts, however, is that Astral Flow is AoE Magical damage, while the level 70 BPs are single-target physical damage (some of them, however, have added elemental properties, like how Ifrit's Burning Strike does physical fire damage).

It's all in how you make use of the avatars that determines how they perform.

You mean using Evoker's Bracers? That's basically what it does.

The Evoker's Bracers recover MP for the summoner though, right? Not HP for the avatar.

As for main healing, I don't mind it at all. Square-Enix didn't make us this way, the players did. SE gives us the game, we're the ones that decide what goes on how once the changes and additions are in it.