SMN not a main?

[Shadowneko]

Re: SMN not a main?

that guy is silly...I like playing summoner as a main and I hate being Gimp WHM. I've made it my mission to learn as much about BPs as I can. I also want to use them...and like I said I HATE BEING GIMP WHM!

[Akashimo]

Re: SMN not a main?

What is SMN supposed to do when they are not summoning?
Stand there and look pretty?
SMNs that refuse to main heal are like CORs that refuse to pull - its something you CAN do and if needed, should be willing to do it. You get loads of MP, I have a gun. While these two facts can be used to the shallowest of ends, there is sliver of truth to why we get "pidgeonholed" into such duties.
Because we can do them.

For damn good reason smns refuse to heal. Less mp for tp building on a BP that consumes it(which makes it less likely to whiff). and to keep the avatar longer. A good party with a dedicated healer, I can probally stretch my mp for 5 BPs, 3 wards, 2 rages, and use either Fenny, or one of the 6 avatars to BP on a sc(shiva on distortion ftw). If you don't like the setup or what you're "pidgeonholed" into, then put what you're not lfp to do in your seacom and make it clear in tell before accepting the party. Or just solo. If you don't and complain after accepting the party, no right to complain about being pidgeonholed.

[Rain_Blade]

Re: SMN not a main?

What is SMN supposed to do when they are not summoning?

Stand there and look pretty?

SMNs that refuse to main heal are like CORs that refuse to pull - its something you CAN do and if needed, should be willing to do it. You get loads of MP, I have a gun. While these two facts can be used to the shallowest of ends, there is sliver of truth to why we get "pidgeonholed" into such duties.

Because we can do them.

To answer your question, we rest for mp. Lol.

If the Avatar had their own MP (about the same lvl of ours) for their BPs and perpetuation and our MPs get changedd to about the same lvl as a whm, then maybe we can actually get EVERYONE happy. The Summoners would summon which will make them happy. The non-summoners who want Summoners to heal will be happy since they need healing. The Summoner shouldn't have a problem with it if their own MP is not using for perpetuation and Blood Pacts.

Note: I think I type in ideas in every Smn post I make. Meh. Anyway, you don't have to like it. ^^

[Raydeus]

Re: SMN not a main?

Hmm, let's see.

1) SMN can be a main job, only bad players would say otherwise.

2) SMN can be very difficult as a main job if you don't have another higher lvl job and/or have high lvl friends to help you (In case you want Fenrir and Diabolos or lack the skill for lvl 20 battles. Which happens very often with new players)

3) Until SE fixes BPs the best use you can give a SMN in XP parties is Cure III nuker, not much you can do about it really.

4) If you love your job you'll play it anyway because you are playing mainly to have fun. I'll present all those lolPUP75 players as Exhibit A.


Aaaand... I think that's all I have to say about this.

[Taskmage]

Re: SMN not a main?

And I suppose you're in utter disbelief of the Pink Mage as well TM?

You're darn right I am. To sweepingly marginalize the uniqueness of my job with that phrase is more insulting than a racial slur to me.

I healed a lot in exp. Probably better than 60% of the time. The ability to trade a more easily replenished resource such as mp for the hp that keeps the party on their feet and killing is extremely important and I recognize it's one of the most sought after abilities my job has to offer to an exp party. That's a thing I do; it's not my identity. Prior to haste and refresh it was my Dispel that made it possible for my parties to chain effectively on the highly defensive mobs of Garliage, Altepa and CN. Prior to that it was my sword opening Fusion to maximize the effectiveness of my mnks and blms, my debuffs giving my parties the offensive and defensive edge they needed to go from being a good party to a great one.

Post-50 was obviously more buff-centric while I learned to juggle refresh and haste alongside my normal debuffing and healing. Did I let my black magic slide and let myself sit back and heal like a good pink mage? Heck no. I was still rationing mp for every MB I could spare, and refining my enfeebling by coordinating with the nin to cover his resists and conserve my mp. The one in ten party I was priviledged to share with a smn or whm were of course heaven, allowing me to focus more heavily on A-ranked skill and cut loose a little with some free nuking. Was I not really playing my job the rest of the time when I had to cure more? Of course I was. Red mage's job is to do whatever this party needs right now, to fill in all the gaps in the setup to give it its full potential.

In merit parties I'm the main healer, I'm the haster, but I'm also the Banishga for the Zephyr Mantle, the Dispel for the Warm-up, the Gravity and Silence that bring down thfs and blms, the flurry of nukes that saves the chain. No other job can do all of those things but me. My hat is red sir, not some knockoff wannabe color. And if I don't feel like casting the slightest bit of white magic tonight I go solo chain 3 in Zhayolm or team up with a blm buddy to bring the chain 5s. What I don't ever do is pretend I don't have options.

So far I haven't gotten smn past 20 so I can't make the same speech for the job, but I bet any true smn could and heaven help you if that smn is Triel. All I can say from experience so far is that I don't remember solo chaining Ts at level 12 with whm or rdm, and you can bet my party wasn't wishing I was a whm when my double Howling Moon took down a mispulled Goblin Mugger in a party that was still having a hard time with Ambushers. Personally I like to heal, and I can't wait to throw some Double Slaps, Earthen Wards, Ecliptics and Healing Ruby IIs in with my Carby/Fenny melee. Of course I'll vary my mp expenditure to meet whatever the parties needs are, even if that does mean just buffing and healing, because that's playing the job to its best. And if I get tired of that? I'll solo. Because PUGs aren't the only option.

This is just talking about exp. If we start taking missions, NMs, dynamis, assaults, and BCs into consideration there's not even a comparison to be made. My CoP static did Snoll Tzar pre-patch with 3 rdms and 2 smns, Gobbie BC with 4 rdms, sin hunters with 3 smns, Dawn with 3 rdms and a smn. Try replacing us with whms and see how far you get.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: SMN not a main?

In merit parties I'm the main healer, I'm the haster, but I'm also the Banishga for the Zephyr Mantle, the Dispel for the Warm-up, the Gravity and Silence that bring down thfs and blms, the flurry of nukes that saves the chain. No other job can do all of those things but me. My hat is red sir, not some knockoff wannabe color. And if I don't feel like casting the slightest bit of white magic tonight I go solo chain 3 in Zhayolm or team up with a blm buddy to bring the chain 5s. What I don't ever do is pretend I don't have options.

This is pretty much what any good RDM, DRG, BLM, PUP or BST already understands. I just wonder why SMNs, THFs and DRGs in particular always have more difficulty learning it.

There are always going to be expectations for EXP PTs and when you accept pick-up groups, you have no right to bitch about what your role is in them, I don't care what your job is.

You have four options:

(1) Take what you get.
(2) Build at PT that let you do what you want.
(3) Specify what you want in your search comment.
(4) Or simply don't PT.

[Malacite]

Re: SMN not a main?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the biggest gripe in the RDM community the whole "Pink Mage" issue? Being thrown into the cure/refresh/haste whore role and never being able to do much else?

I salute you though, for being a smart RDM. Idk how many times a mob was within 10% or less and the stupid RDM could have saved the chain by casting a single nuke while the melee flailed blindly but instead sat back and did nothing. Pisses me off to no end.

By the same token, SMN is IMO fundamentally broken in that it has little to do but cure between Blood Pacts, as avatar melee is not practical at all in PT situations.

I've found more often than not that the MP spent for perpetuation to gain TP for the next BP falls extremely short of being worth it. Especially when you consider the lackluster damage avatars generally do along with feeding the mob 10 tp a hit.

Of all the pet jobs, SMN is the most reliant on it's pet compared to the others, and yet they have the weakest pets of all comparatively (not taking into account blood pacts here).

Granted, if they die you can just re-summon them right away (given you have the MP for it and enough distance from the mob or someone else has it's attention) but I for one would like to see a drastic overhaul. Preferably in the form of scaling power based on summoning magic skill level as well as which avatar you summon.

I really dislike the carbon copy thing. Why do they all hit for relatively the same damage? Why doesn't Ifrit hit the hardest, or Shiva nuke the best etc? How about some real variety aside from just being a different element and a few different pacts?

Or would that be too much for SE? Maybe I'm just jaded, but I don't much care for the way SE's handled one of my favorite FF jobs. It's got a lot of potential and some very awesome story flavor. I just wish it performed a little more like it should.

SE was clearly going for something similar to what they did with the Aeons in X, but have somewhat failed since it's an online setting and they have to carefully balance it (They released the job with just carbuncle for christ sake. That's a bad sign right there...)


All I ask is that I get to actually keep my pet out for a meaningful purpose (how about multiple roles like having Titan tank?) and do some cures on the side, rather than the other way around...


Oh yeah, and make healing skill matter while you're at it SE. There's no good reason that a SMN's cure 3 should be just as potent as a RDM or especially WHM's (same goes for the rest of the magic skills really but that's a bone for another thread)

[Akashimo]

Re: SMN not a main?

Most of the time, I've seen avatar BP's do enough to make it worth letting them TP. As for dmg, it does improve slightly with more smn skill, along with it being a little under par of a nin or thf at that level. Few times, just a bit over, but generally Shiva is the one that does it more often.

[Raydeus]

Re: SMN not a main?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the biggest gripe in the RDM community the whole "Pink Mage" issue? Being thrown into the cure/refresh/haste whore role and never being able to do much else?

In my case it isn't about being main healer at all, I like fast paced parties too. Problem is fights are so fast you can't really Enf the mob so that A+ skill rating goes to waste for the most part. That does bug me.

But other than that a main healer RDM can still nuke and use debuffs according to the situation (although if the party is working as it should you wont be casting anything but dispel, dia and maybe slow), that will never change.

And yeah it happens kinda the same with SMN and their lack of BP/avatar use in favor of CIII'ing.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: SMN not a main?

By the same token, SMN is IMO fundamentally broken in that it has little to do but cure between Blood Pacts, as avatar melee is not practical at all in PT situations.

Again, what would you have them do between blood pacts? If you can't answer that, its not worth complaining about.

And you just said it yourself, avatar melee is not practical in all situations. I cussed some noob SMNs hard for paying ZERO attention to crowd control efforts by RNG, RDM and BLM. RDM/DRK's CS/Stun should not be a fallback for "if someone fucks up" yet I've seen numerous Shadowbinds broken by numbskull melee and SMNs a lot.

Of all the pet jobs, SMN is the most reliant on it's pet compared to the others, and yet they have the weakest pets of all comparatively (not taking into account blood pacts here).

I think thats fair considering SMNs can resummon a pet at will with full HP. SMN is a job with no high maintenance pets. You don't give up your HP or spend gil to keep them alive, nor do you have to worry about them overloading or turning on you.

There's a great amount of risk in maintaining pets on BST and if PUP or DRG's pets die, they have to wait on Activate/Call Wyvern recast.

In a lot of ways, I think PUP just got the buff SE always had intended for DRGs, but instead gave DRGs the player-character melee buff they always wanted instead. For BST the matter was making jug pets have a duration worth more than 15 minutes and the materials for said jugs more available. Thats slowly changing as materials get farmed now.

With PUP, DRG and BST all having recent fixes, I'm pretty sure SMN isn't too far down the road from getting an update. PUP and DRG's only current obstacle is a perception issue. BST is still a little rough around the edges, but what we got recently was a big push forward and new jug pets will come with time, i'm sure.

Now all we can do is wait and see with SMN, provided SE isn't pulling another pet class out of their ass for WotG, which I doubt they would.

[Karinya]

Re: SMN not a main?

By the same token, SMN is IMO fundamentally broken in that it has little to do but cure between Blood Pacts, as avatar melee is not practical at all in PT situations.
I've found more often than not that the MP spent for perpetuation to gain TP for the next BP falls extremely short of being worth it. Especially when you consider the lackluster damage avatars generally do along with feeding the mob 10 tp a hit.
Of all the pet jobs, SMN is the most reliant on it's pet compared to the others, and yet they have the weakest pets of all comparatively (not taking into account blood pacts here).

This is the biggest problem with SMN IMO: people whose brains are still stuck in about 3 years ago. The job has been improved a lot since then, but its reputation has not.

Keeping avatars out 100% of the time is not intended on IT enemies. A mix of bloodpacts (some rage, some ward) and some healing is generally the most cost-effective party style. This is quite different from a WHM, although people who have never played either job may not appreciate the differences (if they don't pay attention). Avatar melee can be helpful if you want to add a little extra push to hit #4 or #5, but for the most part it's more effective on T or below.

There are still some broken bloodpacts (mainly a few enhancing ones that produce effects that should be useful, but are statistically too weak to be worthwhile), but most have their uses.

[Malacite]

Re: SMN not a main?

The focus of the job is the avatars though. Why shouldn't SMN be allowed to keep them out full-time if desired? That's why they have such a massive MP pool, to support the avatars! I'm of the opinion that SE really isn't playing to the job's strengths. How to best use them should always be up to the player's discretion, but as it stands there isn't much incentive to keep them out in an EXP party.

SMN pets should be stronger BBQ (at least the avatars). Why? Putting aside the fact that they are gods (albeit only an avatar but still) it's because in a tight situation where your pet dies, a SMN is more often than not screwed. A DRG has their melee abilities to fall pack on, as do BST and PUP (BST can even pop a jug pet or hopefully charm whatever may be nearby). What's a SMN got to fall back on?

E-rated Evasion, HP, STR and VIT. If they can't get that pet back up somehow, it's game over. All of their job traits are geared towards their summons. All you're left is your sub job abilities, which may or may not be enough.

Oh, and either I have crap luck, or something's amiss when I left Ifrit out to get 200 TP (just for kicks) and Fire II did marginally more damage to a Yuhtunga Mandragora. (on my other character btw, who is a 30-something taru SMN)

[Susurrus]

Re: SMN not a main?

"What should smn doing between blood pacts?"
Resting. Using both Blood Pact: Rage and Blood Pact: Ward every time it is available is a huge drain on MP. Resting between blood pacts helps SMN be more effective since they will be able to keep their MP high enough to continue doing blood pacts as often as possible.

"SMNs have MP so they can be main healers."
I see SMNs (including myself) main heal all the time. BLMs, BLUs, PLDs, DRKs all have MPs as well, and they very rarely, if ever, main heal.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: SMN not a main?

"What should smn doing between blood pacts?"
Resting. Using both Blood Pact: Rage and Blood Pact: Ward every time it is available is a huge drain on MP. Resting between blood pacts helps SMN be more effective since they will be able to keep their MP high enough to continue doing blood pacts as often as possible.

And what's your excuse when you have a RDM, COR and/or BRD in in PT? Pass the buck and stare at the RDM to do it? You're likely not going to go without one of those jobs in PT and COR can stack a tick of MP on top of your Auto-refresh in addition to the base bonuses of Evoker's Roll.

And let's not forget Sanction, Vermy Cloak. I was always pretty insistent about having a BRD back when I main healed as RDM and typically got one, so I don't see what's holding a SMN back when you're clearly going to have that kind of support.

"SMNs have MP so they can be main healers."
I see SMNs (including myself) main heal all the time. BLMs, BLUs, PLDs, DRKs all have MPs as well, and they very rarely, if ever, main heal.

If you expect me to take this statement seriously, we have to eliminate PLD and DRK from the statement. They don't main heal because they don't have the means to support a PT on such a puny pool of MP. BLMs, if they want to EXP in non-manaburn PTs actually do main heal these days, at least JP ones are willing to.

BLU honestly doesn't have many excuses not to main heal the are as competent, if not moreso, than SMN to do the task. Its more to the end that the community lets them get away with being perceived as a melee when they're a far more diverse role than that.

Again, I'll point to my COR analogy and pulling. I have seen CORs fish for any and every excuse they could possibly make not to pull for thier PTs. Bullshit like:

"I'll lose track of my buff cycle."

If you take longer than 45 seconds to pull something, yeah, you will, but you shouldn't take that long ever, so its a pretty lame excuse. Buffing isn't rocket science, just buff and go.

"I have a high delay gun"

Doesn't mean much if no other PTs are camping the area you're in.

Means even less when your job can exclusively use the lowest delay gun in the game and use light based sleep just like a BRD.

"But we're meant to DD."

Not exactly, its just something we can do. Yeah, it may come as a shock, there are PTs/situations where COR doesn't have to nor are they needed to DD at all.

Sound familiar, SMNs?

Just because DD is part of the appeal to a job doesn't mean its your first and only duty to a PT. If you are in any job with a reasonable level of support ability, in my mind, support is your first obligation to a PT, damage is secondary.

I won't deny SMN needs a little boost in regards to buffing and party support abilities, in addition to some MP issues being alleviated, but I'm tired of hearing the bullshit of what SMN was "meant" to do. Yuna, Rydia, Dagger, Eiko all supported thier allies in one way or another, they didn't just call gods forth to smash things.

[Saren]

Re: SMN not a main?

I just hit 40 last night and I haven’t felt really comfortable in parties unless I have been main healing partly because I can do a lot of things in a party but none of them terribly well though good support helps some.

Wards: This sucking is partly my fault, got my moon bauble last weekend and getting Fenrir this weekend so no Lunar Cry yet. Aerial Armor would be great but too many nin tanks and /nin DD for it to be worth the cost. Rolling Thunder was doing an extra 1 damage per hit on mobs that were weak to lightning so again, not really worth it, at least at this level.

I have been doing Shining Ruby (I know but I am usually designated protect and shell person and the little boost felt like it was helping), the odd Crimson Howl for tougher mobs and tried Whispering wind but Curaga is much more efficient right now.

Damage: I really don’t mind doing less damage than a dedicated DD because smn can do a lot of other things as well and isn’t exclusively a DD class. What frustrates me about trying to contribute to the party damage as a smn is that it’s low to start with, there are a lot of misses and resists that I can’t do all that much about with gear or play style until I hit AF and a lot of the good BPs are noticeably hurt in damage if the enfeeble they also give is already on the mob.

If I go for accuracy which I have found to give me the best mp efficiency and leave Leviathan out to gain some TP for Tail Whip so he doesn’t miss I can get about 110-230 damage in per fight and gravity on the mob for about 100-120 mp. This can work pretty well, if you have refresh/evokers you can even push it to 2 rage per fight (so long as no one gets in a lucky crit hit and the mob dies too fast) so long as you choose a high acc BP for the first one (thunderspark is about the best I have found so far) but it’s still not exactly wonderful for a job that is put together to look like it should have a significant Damage Dealing aspect to it.

The good thing about smn damage is the huge range af SC applications, would be nice if they were more of a priority in parties. I haven’t been directly organising SCs in parties because I was lazy and it’s fiddly on smn but a lot of SC were happening randomly and Tail Whip -> Sturmwind was doing some nice damage.

Healing: I’ve main healed on smn, it works o.k against certain mobs with certain party setups. Back up healing is ideal for smn though because I can squeeze in cures while I am up doing other things with Blood Pacts, the time the avatar is readying it’s BP is very close to Cure 2’s casting time so that works out very nicely and spamming cures if I am letting an avatar build a little TP is no problem.

Pulling: That was fun, died the first time because I was trying to be clever and move the mobs closer so it would be easier to chain and didn’t reckon on Carby dying quite that fast but, it’s nice to be able to do a little more to help out. I can see full time pulling working with smn provided you time very carefully and have some sort of refresh but it’s never going to be as fast as melee pullers provided the mobs allow them to pull safely.