Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

[LilithAngel]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Ah ok. Like I said though, I can't imagine why a DRG would want to do so anyway (except maybe to save his or her own hide while they run for it?)

DRGs use Super Jump in a sort of "Escape Plan" tactic sometimes when things start to get out of hand (especially when solo). Let the wyvern take aggro and get the hell outta there.

[Solymir]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

How about for every 3 skill points above the Summoning skill cap you get -1 perpetuation? My first thought would be to make it every 5 points, but that gives no help to Smn's below level 50 when Austere/Penance Gear becomes available. At level 35 you could purchase a Summoner's earring and get -1 perpetuation when you are capped. I realize this seems like an unfair advantage to some, but it still requires the Smn to spend time capping their skill.

[Malacite]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Here's what I would have done, at least for end game SMN. Ditch the stupid merited blood pacts
(merit spells are a retarded idea in the 1st place) for 2 new abilities and 2 traits like the other jobs.


Evoker's Seal: Increases the power of your next Blood Pact. 15:00 each merit reduces recast by 2:50.

Nexus (Working in a good name @- @): Increases Max MP of party members in range. Each merit increases MP gained. Recast 10 minutes duration 3.


Astral Vessel: Reduces perpetuation cost by 1 per merit.

Evoker's Will: Reduces Blood Pact Ability recast by -2 per merit.


I thought about -2 for perp cost, and while that'd be nice -6 MP would make some of the avatars almost too cheap. (though it would make Diabolos bearable with his janky 15/tic) I also feel that -2 for blood pact is just right, since it would cap out at -6 (-3 is a joke, and it's only going 1 over other abilities with a 1min recast) and would improve SMN quite a bit without pushing it's power over the edge.

If I'm not mistaken, the current max from gear is around -14, so this would put it to -20. Almost 2 a minute, but not quite ^^b

[Saren]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

I have to say I was actually quite suprised by how much I have been enjoying smn partly because you get a big thing that can moosh stuff and partly because I can pull off some fairly silly stuff solo.

Drastic Increase in Avatar Melee
Auto Enspell

Auto Enspell would be really really nice and actually given how stringly elemental in nature avatars are, it's kind of surprising they don't already have it really.

Perhaps having it kick in as a level 30-40 job trait or something or having the enspell damage scale with level/skill to make summoning skill more relevant?

Still very low level smn so I can't really talk about how bad the avatar melee accuracy/damage gets but I did notice trying to solo a little for fun last night after 5 levels in parties that Carbuncle is really having trouble holding hate from me now, even if I do nothing more than initiate BPs twice a minute.

0 BP Timer during Astral Flow(like Chainspell)

Bit dubious about this one.

Can you imagine being a level 20 smn with a lot of mulsum or ethers? My level 30 smn was just...gang raping in Promy with Astral flow so unless smn two hour gets less powerful as you level this looks like it has the potential to be seriously broken.

At level 75 you would need 150mp but with auto refresh, double ballad, refresh, a lot of 'instant mp' meds, possibly Martyr in there somewhere too you could get that back pretty quickly.

With a bit of planning you could probably get up to 6-8 astral flow BPs out in your 3 minutes depending on how often your avatar died with very little hate going on the smn.

More Stuff like Carbys Mitts (but, recalling what a pain it was to get just theese... multipling it by uhm 8? OMG).

I don't know about this one either. Carbuncle is your first Avatar the one you are 'closest' to, it makes sense for him to have a few special items.

Also smn already has a few things that are considered borderline 'essential' even are fairly low level that you need a level 65+ job and/or 65+help to get .

I am not sure adding more items for the job that will be considered essential but are difficult to get is going to make the job more playable which is the point of all these suggestions.

[Lunaryn]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Given that one of the biggest complaints about SMN is that they have so little to do pre-70 in terms of main-job abilities, to the point that they are sometimes referred to as MP/WHM, I think adjusting MP costs wouldn't mean as much as tweaking BP timers. I think that particularly at lower levels with few BPs available, the recast times are a serious stumbling block even with the Rage/Ward split (and only terrestrials even have Ward until the 20s).

The flip side to this is that decreasing the timer on BP Rage in particular could break things like Astral Flow or high-level BPs.

The thought thus occurs to me that maybe instead of having a static 1 minute recast on the BP abilities, the recast time should be determined by the BP used. The recast could still apply to all Rage or all Ward BPs respectively, but using a weak BP has less impact on things and thus could impose a shorter recast. Being able to choose between using weak BPs frequently and strong BPs infrequently could present an additional element of strategy as well as providing SMN more to do at earlier levels.

[Silent Howler]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Yet another solution is...

Let smn rest while avatar's out. Hey bst can do it, why shouldn't we? ;p

About this. As most of you know, Dancer has been introduced as a new job in WotG, and someone also mentioned that in previous games they could do "poison" like damage to MP. Now if you were to see this ability used on a Whm, I bet they would not be able to rest for MP. That's the difference with Bst. With Bst, you aren't losing any HP or MP. And even if you have auto-regen, you still can't rest when you're poisoned. Smn basically already has this effect by summoning an avatar, and that is why they cannot rest.

More Stuff like Carbys Mitts (but, recalling what a pain it was to get just theese... multipling it by uhm 8? OMG)

I still like the idea I posted in another thread here. Having a special ring that reduces perpetual cost for a specific avatar, obtained only through the Lv.20 solo fights. (Something to actually reward those that don't take the easy way and have to solo them.) Although the solo fights are only for the six elemetal avatars, rings could also be added to the rewards for Fenrir and Diabolos too. It would be a hassle to carry them around, but it's certainly better than nothing.

The thought thus occurs to me that maybe instead of having a static 1 minute recast on the BP abilities, the recast time should be determined by the BP used. The recast could still apply to all Rage or all Ward BPs respectively, but using a weak BP has less impact on things and thus could impose a shorter recast. Being able to choose between using weak BPs frequently and strong BPs infrequently could present an additional element of strategy as well as providing SMN more to do at earlier levels.

I like. In normal exp parties, I've noticed that each individual fight usually takes about 90 seconds. (Probably varies at different levels and depends on what you're fighting, but at my level this seems about normal.) So that allows me to use only two Blood Pacts each fight, and I can either spend the remaining time letting my avatar melee or un-summon and rest while everyone else fights... Neither are that exciting.

[Rain_Blade]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Given that one of the biggest complaints about SMN is that they have so little to do pre-70 in terms of main-job abilities, to the point that they are sometimes referred to as MP/WHM, I think adjusting MP costs wouldn't mean as much as tweaking BP timers. I think that particularly at lower levels with few BPs available, the recast times are a serious stumbling block even with the Rage/Ward split (and only terrestrials even have Ward until the 20s).

The flip side to this is that decreasing the timer on BP Rage in particular could break things like Astral Flow or high-level BPs.

The thought thus occurs to me that maybe instead of having a static 1 minute recast on the BP abilities, the recast time should be determined by the BP used. The recast could still apply to all Rage or all Ward BPs respectively, but using a weak BP has less impact on things and thus could impose a shorter recast. Being able to choose between using weak BPs frequently and strong BPs infrequently could present an additional element of strategy as well as providing SMN more to do at earlier levels.

For the first part in bold: I feel like if we had better Blood Pacts Ward that are worth using at any level, maybe Summoner can get some progress going. Lightning Armor and Frost Armor is just by far useless compared to the other Blood Pacts. Rolling Thunder is only good on monsters weak to thunder (which means you can use this when you're in Crawler's Nest on Crawlers and Altepa on Dhalmels). Crimson Howl's duration is obviously pitiful and there are others BPs better to use. Nightmare is good, but Shiva's Sleepga lasts longer. Slowga is good for handling multiple mobs, but I'd rather Sleepga them. Titan's Earthen Ward is nice, but at 75 the maximum it'll absorb is 200 which is 150 less than the cap for a normal Stoneskin. Maybe it's fair or maybe it's not, but I' say move Earthen Ward's dmg cap 100+ to 300. Dream Shroud isn't too great unless you have like 5 other black mages in your party or something. Noctoshield is nice for the tank (or any other hate takers), but people use Earthen Ward over this. Somnolence is nice, but there's rarely a time in a party where you need to gravity a monster unless you're party might be predicting a wipe. Glittering Ruby is pretty much those things you might use for laughs just to see what your party gets, but you'd still never use this since Ecliptic Growl is more satisfying. Shining Ruby is nice for the Paladin, but still rarely used. If a paladin had 600 defense, then shining ruby (10% boost) will make that 660.

For the second part in bold, I agree. Basically when you're in a party, you constantly have to think which BP is worth 1 minute more than the other BP. I was thinking like the more you level, the more the previous Blood Pact timers are reduced. Example (calculations might be wrong):

Level 5, the BP timer for Poison Nails is one minute.

Level 50, the BP timer for Poison Nails is 32 seconds.

Level 75, the BP timer for Poison Nails is 10 seconds.

At lvl 70, Predator Claws will be one minute.

At 75, they may be 50 seconds, 55 seconds, or stay 1 minute.

The thing I was thinking is that you can't use a spell unless the recast timer of the recent spell you use is done.

Example2: At 75, Poison Nails recast time is 10 seconds and Predator Claws is..55 seconds.

You use Poison Nails. 10 second delay for casting any other Rage spell. So after 10 seconds done, I use Predator Claws. 55 second delay for castung any other Rage spell. Basically, the recast timer for a spell is also the delay for using any other spell of a Rage or Ward category.

Anyway, that's my 2 seconds. If you don't like it...SCREW YOU! I'm just kidding.

[Silent Howler]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

I think it would be nice if they made Blood Pacts more worth it in general. You get Crimson Howl at lvl 38, attack +15% for 30 seconds for 84 MP. Even though SMNs can use this at lvl 38, most won't because the +15% attack doesn't have as great of an impact as it does with a party of 75s. And we've all heard about SMNs using one Blood Pact over another, because it's simple better. There is a lot of imbalance with Blood Pacts and there is little that makes an avatar unique. There is that one Blood Pact they will use the avatar for, and that's it.

[Thoris]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

we need better pacts in dmg and support.

i think at lv 50 all avatars should learn teir 2 melee dmg attack.

like shiva has double slap



i would also love for a lower perp cost.

i do have the feeling smn will be getting a major overhaul. i feel like they were testing the waters with pup, bst and drg update.

so u never know maybe we will get a timmer for the avatars like pup has. which is good and bad.

[Silent Howler]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

i do have the feeling smn will be getting a major overhaul. i feel like they were testing the waters with pup, bst and drg update.

This is something I've noticed. Pup has actually started to look like how I imagine Smn should have been. (In terms of how the job is played. I don't want to see attachments for avatars. ) And there is one issue that S-E has brought up about Smn, and that's the fact that they want people to keep them out longer; rather than summon, use a Blood Pact, then unsummon. With Pup, you can't use an ability right after you activate your automation without the risk of overload. Out of all the pet jobs so far, Pup seems to be the most impressive. And it is also the newest. I have my doubts that Pup would look and feel the way it does today if it were released when Smn was.

[Thoris]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

pup would be my fav job if it were not for the melee dd.

my pup is lv 67 and my smn is 55

[Malacite]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

SMN's BP's are pretty IMO (ward especially).

Why do we get Tier 2 nukes at level 10 that do less damage than a BLM's Blizzard 1 ? The hell is that about SE?


In past games, any buffs provided by summons were usually pretty awesome for their cost. Titan's Earthen Ward is just Golem's classic ability but scaled way down.

Personally, I think SE should drastically increase blood pact performance (based on SMN skill level preferably, and NOT for that BS over-the-cap bandage fix) and increase the MP costs a bit too.

Am I the only one who misses the good old days of SMN being a more expensive and more powerful RDM? Note that I'm not advocating we screw over any other jobs here, just that SMN actually get some decent bang for their buck. One would think that the gods of the elements would have stronger magic than a mortal but that's apparently not the case.

[Pteryx]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Why do we get Tier 2 nukes at level 10 that do less damage than a BLM's Blizzard 1 ? The hell is that about SE?

At a guess, that's about them not realizing at the time how important MAB, MAcc, and skill are to dealing actual damage with spells, and just not noticing or caring enough to get around to actually fixing that problem. Of course, with all the MAB stuff puppets get, maybe they're realizing the problem -- and maybe someone there has actually finally gotten the bright idea of giving avatars MABI and making avatar nukes work off of our A+ Summoning skill for accuracy and it's in playtesting now. We can hope. -- Pteryx

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Am I the only one who misses the good old days of SMN being a more expensive and more powerful RDM? Note that I'm not advocating we screw over any other jobs here, just that SMN actually get some decent bang for their buck. One would think that the gods of the elements would have stronger magic than a mortal but that's apparently not the case.

First your call for Mystic Knight, and now this! You'd think you'd have something against Red Mages: very suspicious, I tell you . . .

/joking

[Kardor]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Soo if i got rite now were back to

More Melee Dmg (and i mean alot more)
Auto Enspell
Lower Per

The things the Smn Commu is demanding for years .... SE pls read this ...
To be honest i highly doubt that there will be any drastic changes in Summoner
of the above mentioned we "might" see lower perp. but the rest ... meh.
SE will rather give us a new Summon (no complains i love summons - id be happy to have as many as in FFT ) to distract us for like half a year until everyone has it .

I love Summoner and its current style but iam used to it^^ i was very dissapointed when i started.
A mind change in the Gaming community would greatly help smn also, for you can do dmg in midgame , if u get a chance that is.