Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

[Kemdium]

A member of my LS mentioned a fix for summoner, when I heard it I thought it was a great idea, and I would also like to add to it.

Heres the idea:

Avatars HP is dependant on Summoner level & summoning magic.

Avatars MP is dependant on Summoners mana. The Avatar will only have 50% of the
Summoners maximum mana.

Avatar prep cost is used from the Avatars mana pool. Example: Since Avatars have 50% of the Summoners MP, if the Summoner has 800MP, the Avatar will have 400MP. 400MP @ 5mp/3sec means the Avatar can stay out roughly 80 seconds.

Blood Pacts still would use Summoners mana.

Avatars cost MP to summon depending on the level of the Summoner. A level 50 Summoner would need 100MP to summon Ifrit. Then Ifrit would be out until Ifrit runs out of mana. Once the Avatar is out, no more mana would need to be used from the Summoner except to use Blood Pacts.

Astral Flow would allow a Summoner to summon a Avatar free of MP. While Astral Flow is activated, Avatars also would not need MP to stay out.

Summoner should get a new Job Ability that transfers mana from the Summoner to the Avatar:

Ability: Rank 1 - Level 15 Summoner: Transfers up to 45MP to the Avatar.
Ability: Rank 2 - Level 45 Summoner: Transfers up to 210MP to the Avatar.
Ability: Rank 3 - Level 75 Summoner: Transfers up to 425MP to the Avatar.

Summoners would have to keep a eye out on their Avatars mana pool.


This would all allow Summoners to keep their Avatars out longer, and be able to do other stuff. What is everyones opinion on this?

[Silent Howler]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Okay...let's do some calculations here.

At level 50, a hume Smn/Whm has a base MP of 551 (not 800) according to this. At that level, Ifrit has an initial cost of 7 MP to summon and perpetual cost is 8 MP/tick.

(551 - 7) / 8 x 3 = 204 seconds.

With this suggestion, the avatar has an MP pool equal to half of the Summoner's (551 / 2 = 275.5). And you used 5 MP/tick instead of 8, but let's see how that goes.

276 / 5 x 3 = 165 seconds. (If you use 8 MP/tick it would be 103.5 seconds.)

So does this help Summoner's keep their avatars out longer? No, but since you're not using your own MP to keep the avatar out, you can re-summon and get more in the long run, right? But then again, you're blowing 100 MP to summon them in the first place. I suppose summoner's won't like having to use 100 MP every time they summon an avatar, so they will want to keep the avatar out longer to get more out of it. Of course, you're still dealing with the 60 second recast timer on Blood Pacts (and still using your own MP to use them).

I don't know...would this really help?

[Omniblast]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

A member of my LS mentioned a fix for summoner, when I heard it I thought it was a great idea, and I would also like to add to it.

Heres the idea:

Avatars HP is dependant on Summoner level & summoning magic.

This is already in the game, already in the system. If you do a test pulling carbuncle out and or any other avatar and test it versus a cactaur, the damage and the % left of your avatar's HP is already dependent on your level more so than on summoning magic.

Avatars MP is dependant on Summoners mana. The Avatar will only have 50% of the
Summoners maximum mana.

Avatar prep cost is used from the Avatars mana pool. Example: Since Avatars have 50% of the Summoners MP, if the Summoner has 800MP, the Avatar will have 400MP. 400MP @ 5mp/3sec means the Avatar can stay out roughly 80 seconds.

I understand what your saying about this, though I doubt that SE would do something like that. Besides, you can keep the avatar out a log longer than 80 seconds with your own mp pool. Then what happens when you swap gear? I can keep Carbuncle out forever but he doesn't have his own Evoker's ring nor does he have any other -perpetuation gear. :p

Blood Pacts still would use Summoners mana.

Avatars cost MP to summon depending on the level of the Summoner. A level 50 Summoner would need 100MP to summon Ifrit. Then Ifrit would be out until Ifrit runs out of mana. Once the Avatar is out, no more mana would need to be used from the Summoner except to use Blood Pacts.

Astral Flow would allow a Summoner to summon a Avatar free of MP. While Astral Flow is activated, Avatars also would not need MP to stay out.

Summoner should get a new Job Ability that transfers mana from the Summoner to the Avatar:

Ability: Rank 1 - Level 15 Summoner: Transfers up to 45MP to the Avatar.
Ability: Rank 2 - Level 45 Summoner: Transfers up to 210MP to the Avatar.
Ability: Rank 3 - Level 75 Summoner: Transfers up to 425MP to the Avatar.

Summoners would have to keep a eye out on their Avatars mana pool.


This would all allow Summoners to keep their Avatars out longer, and be able to do other stuff. What is everyones opinion on this?

Sorry I don't really like this idea that much. I know your trying to think of a solution to the avatar perpetuation problem, but it doesn't look like SE will budge on this... or maybe not yet. It's too much of a change into the game that a lot of people will have too much opinion about it.

As of now, for me in a way, smn is broken. As well as in some ways, it's not.

The one thing that I would fix instead is to make blood pacts cost 0. Keep Perpetuation in, but make all bloodpacts free.

I'd still consume mp by keeping it out, as well as use MP for other purposes i.e. curing.

Another possible solution is to make the perpetuation reduce consumption according to the Avatar's TP. (note this would not work in conjunction to my previous method of reducing mp costs; this is a seperate idea itself.)

Yet another solution is...

Let smn rest while avatar's out. Hey bst can do it, why shouldn't we? ;p

[Silent Howler]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

I'll say this, Summoner does not need an entirely new system, it just needs a few changes to the current one.

[Kemdium]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

I was using my own summoner stats as a example, my Summoner at 52, Elvaan SMN/BLM has 815 MP. 462 base MP..

If you swapped gear, it wouldn't affect your Avatar, when you summon the Avatar, his stats adjust only to what you were wearing at the time of the summon. Hmm but I still don't know how the gear part would work, when I read this back to myself, it doesn't make sense.

Heres some more math:

815 - 7 / 8 x 3 = 303 seconds
Then the Summoner would have no mana left.

815 - 100 = 715 MP after the summon.
407 / 8 x 3 = 152 seconds

The Avatar can only stay out 1/2 the time, but you have 715 MP left to do Blood Pacts.

Or, you could summon the Avatar 8 times before resting.

152 seconds x 8 = 1216 seconds with 815 MP

[Malacite]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

This is already in the game, already in the system. If you do a test pulling carbuncle out and or any other avatar and test it versus a cactaur, the damage and the % left of your avatar's HP is already dependent on your level more so than on summoning magic.

This is what's fundamentally wrong with SMN IMO. It works for the other pet jobs, since they don't have skill ratings (well, the Automaton does but it's also a construct so it makes sense for it to get better as it's master does)


Summoning Magic Skill should have a much larger impact than it does on Avatar performance and stats. Also, it'd be cool if they got stat boosts based on the Summoner's primary attribute levels the same way they got boosted by Yuna's stats in FFX (If Yuna had high STR, then all her summons got a nice big STR boost)


As it stands, Summoning Magic Skill is a complete joke. It provides little benefit other than speeding up the casting time of spirits and affecting what magic they cast. The fact that you need more skill than your current cap to see any kind of influence on blood pacts is proof SE hasn't got a clue what they're doing.

On the one hand, it's not the easiest job to balance. SMN has always been one of (if not the) strongest class in any FF that's featured it or it's spells (FF6/7/8). At the same time, you'd think that after 5 years they would have worked out the kinks. But then again, they only just fixed BST... (Well Mostly. All BST is missing now is uncapped jug pets IMO)

[Silent Howler]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Heres some more math:

815 - 7 / 8 x 3 = 303 seconds
Then the Summoner would have no mana left.

815 - 100 = 715 MP after the summon.
407 / 8 x 3 = 152 seconds

The Avatar can only stay out 1/2 the time, but you have 715 MP left to do Blood Pacts.

Or, you could summon the Avatar 8 times before resting.

152 seconds x 8 = 1216 seconds with 815 MP

But like I said, you still have to deal with the Blood Pact recast timer. With this system, you can use up to four Blood Pacts (two ward and two rage) before the avatar will un-summon. And if you plan on using more than four, you have to summon again afterwards, using another 100 MP.

Basically, unless the 100 MP counters the normal perpetual cost, it's not worth it.

[Rain_Blade]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Avatars HP is dependant on Summoner level & summoning magic.

Technically, the "Avatars HP is depentant on Summoner level" ia already in there. The more your Summoner levels, the avatar will get stronger and have more HP.

Avatars MP is dependant on Summoners mana. The Avatar will only have 50% of the Summoners maximum mana.

Avatar prep cost is used from the Avatars mana pool. Example: Since Avatars have 50% of the Summoners MP, if the Summoner has 800MP, the Avatar will have 400MP. 400MP @ 5mp/3sec means the Avatar can stay out roughly 80 seconds.

I might be understanding this wrong, but, from what I see, the part in bold is terrible. 80 seconds is extremely bad. Honestly, they should have the Avatar to at least stay out for 30 minutes (along with other MP fixes) so they can melee and gain TP. *looks back on this again* I noticed the calculations were wrong. Do 400 divided by 5 (which is 80) then multiply by 3 and that'll equal 240 seconds which is 4 minutes. 4 minutes is still bad anyway. We need our avatars out longer than that.

Avatars cost MP to summon depending on the level of the Summoner. A level 50 Summoner would need 100MP to summon Ifrit. Then Ifrit would be out until Ifrit runs out of mana. Once the Avatar is out, no more mana would need to be used from the Summoner except to use Blood Pacts.

@ the part in bold: Not to be rude, but this is terrible as well. As a Summoner, we try to save as much MP as we can while trying to do whatever in a party. When you're a healer, some parties still would like you to use Blood Pact Wards. So, if they want you to use BPs such as Hastega and Earhtne Ward, then summoning Garuda and Titan would be 200 MP total + their Blood Pacts which would be 400+ MP spent already.

Astral Flow would allow a Summoner to summon a Avatar free of MP. While Astral Flow is activated, Avatars also would not need MP to stay out.

Well, the second sentence is pretty much already done for Summoner (except for the part where Avatar's have their own MP to spend while staying out). For the first sentence, it's not too special. When you summon an avatar and use an Astral Flow ability, your MP is wiped. Plus, most people use Astral Flow after they summon an avatar anyway. Although, if you were 75 (meaning you need at least 150 mp to use an Astral Flow ability) and you have 150 MP left and you know summoning an avatar would take up some of that MP, then you' probably use Astral Flow before you summon.

Summoner should get a new Job Ability that transfers mana from the Summoner to the Avatar:

Ability: Rank 1 - Level 15 Summoner: Transfers up to 45MP to the Avatar.
Ability: Rank 2 - Level 45 Summoner: Transfers up to 210MP to the Avatar.
Ability: Rank 3 - Level 75 Summoner: Transfers up to 425MP to the Avatar.

Summoners would have to keep a eye out on their Avatars mana pool.


This would all allow Summoners to keep their Avatars out longer, and be able to do other stuff. What is everyones opinion on this?

Honestly, it would sort of be too much Hassle if you know what I mean. You'd have to focus on your Avatar's HP, Avatar's MP, and your own MP. Example:

Rain = 1200 MP
Avatar's MP: 600 which is half of my own MP like suggested.
Avatar's HP: Let's say it's...800? (plus, your avatar has good defense).
Perpetuation for Avatar: I'm gonna use the example you used. 5mp per tick. Each tick equals 3 seconds.

Let's begin. I see a Goblin and I start to fight it.

/em summons Garuda. 100 MP spent. 1100 MP left.

Goblin begins to hit Garuda for let's say...40 damage (excluding critical hits, special moves, and knowness of HP). The Goblin will hit every 6 seconds.

I assault and I melee with Garuda. I use Hastega (MP cost: 112) then Predator Claws (MP cost: 164). 276 MP spent. I have 724 MP left.

30 seconds have passed.

The Goblin has done 200 damage to Garuda in 30 seconds. Garuda is left with 600 HP.
Garuda used 50 MP from the perpetuation so she'll have 550 MP left.

30 seconds have passed again.

The Goblin has done 200 more damage to Garuda in 30 seconds. Garuda is left with 400 HP. Garuda used 50 more MP from the perpetuation so she'll have 500 MP left. I still have my 724 MP left (I could be using my sub spells also).

Now I will use Predator Claws again since 1 minute has passed. At my smn skill, Hastega lasts 3 minutes so right now it has a good 2 minutes left. Now I have 560 MP left.

30 seconds have passed yet again.

The Goblin has done 200 more damage to Garuda in 30 seconds. Garuda is left with 200 HP. Garuda used 50 more MP from the perpetuation so she'll have 450 MP left. Garuda is almost dead. Her MP is fine so I don't need to transfer MP, although if I did transfer MP, my MP would almost be gone leaving Garuda unable to do Blood Pacts. (IF I use Whispering Wind now, I'd have 441 MP left and Garuda might restore like 200 HP leaving her with 400 HP).

30 seconds have passed. 2 minutes total so far.

The Goblin has done 200 more damage to Garuda in 30 seconds. Garuda is left with 0 HP and she is defeated. My MP is at 560. I will resummon Garuda leaving myself with 460. I assume the suggestion also notes that Garuda's MP is reset. She's back to having 600 MP and having 800 HP. I'll use Predator Claws now. Now I have 296 MP left.

In another minute, Hastega would be down. I could use Predator Claws again leaving me with 132 MP. In 3 minutes, I've spent 1068 MP. At some point (very soon), I'll be able to do very little that can save my life. Although, at the time I had 132, I can summon Carbuncle which costs 100 MP. Leaving me with 32 MP. Hopefully my Carbuncle can still become free with the ideas above.

I do like that he/she is trying to fix Summoner though. The more suggestions sent to SE, the more they should (hopefully) be able to understand that we'd like to an update to fix the "handling MP" problem. Take care!

[Khidir]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Yet another solution is...

Let smn rest while avatar's out. Hey bst can do it, why shouldn't we? ;p

this would be a start of something beautiful^^ would help with a lot of things but would this be broken since smn get access to good clear mind abilities and refresh but the damage given isnt much but helps for tp which would improve the 60 second issue with bps.

on the fence with this but leaning twoards HELLS YESH

also having tp affecting other bps in other areas besides damage would be nice

ie with proper tp and summoning skill aerial armor gets more shadows, the hastega percentage is increased,etc.

[Malacite]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

If I'm not mistaken, DRG can also rest while the wyvern is engaged (though I don't know why you'd want to...) and PUP also can not much like SMN.

[Kardor]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Hmm ya Healing while having a Summon out would be nice but i dont see it happen (iam not hoping for something that good)

Things that would be nice would be:
Drastic Increase in Avatar Melee
Auto Enspell
0 BP Timer during Astral Flow(like Chainspell)
More Stuff like Carbys Mitts (but, recalling what a pain it was to get just theese... multipling it by uhm 8? OMG)

Well its an endless discussion, in the end we have to do our jobs and remain "Power on Demand" until SE changes something ... if at all.

[LilithAngel]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

If I'm not mistaken, DRG can also rest while the wyvern is engaged.

Actually, you very much are mistaken. The wyvern only engages and disengages when the Dragoon does the same. It's very much a Mini-Me in that regard. As soon as you put away your lance, the wyvern flies to your side, idle once again.

[Malacite]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Ah ok. Like I said though, I can't imagine why a DRG would want to do so anyway (except maybe to save his or her own hide while they run for it?)

[Omniblast]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

Summoning Magic Skill should have a much larger impact than it does on Avatar performance and stats. Also, it'd be cool if they got stat boosts based on the Summoner's primary attribute levels the same way they got boosted by Yuna's stats in FFX (If Yuna had high STR, then all her summons got a nice big STR boost)

I don't agree. I don't want to load up on DEX and +ACC in order for Garuda to land her Predator Claws. I think that they should be independent, however they should work on a scale according to how high your SMN skill is.

Also, I think your getting confused between a Player's Wyvern, and a Dynamis type Wyvern, as they act independently of their masters, and can even kill stuff even if their masters are dead

Oh and about the healing thing. They would still need to get up to use blood pacts, attack and what not, however it's just that while they are attacking something, we're able to focus on maintaining their perpetuation. Maybe not a true /heal because that requires you to "Clear your mind" like the skill "Clear Mind", you don't really think about things you sorta just relax.
Maybe reducing the perpetuation using another smn trait instead, a type of "focus thoughts" or "focus" or something like that.

[Mhurron]

Re: Summoner & Avatar Suggestion

I don't agree. I don't want to load up on DEX and +ACC in order for Garuda to land her Predator Claws. I think that they should be independent, however they should work on a scale according to how high your SMN skill is.

Why not, everyone else has skills and stats to deal with for anything they directly control.

I'm not saying that it should be like BLM and pile on INT after skill has been capped, but why not have stat boosts on the SMN have an effect over and above summoning skill?