Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

[Vyuru]

This is mostly dealing with the buff bloodpacts, and a few specific questions and general questions I have on them.

Whispering Wind vs Spring Water:

Almost every summoner I know uses Whispering Wind instead of Spring Water, why is this? Looking at the ffxiclopdia info on them, Spring Water is stronger, and has an AoE Erase effect, and costs less mp to cast:

Whispering Wind: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Whispering_Wind

Spring Water: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Spring_Water

And this is lvl 50+ I'm talking about, so they have access to both Leviathan and Garuda and both of these bloodpacts.


Next big question, why do hardly any summoners ever use Garuda's Hastega in exp parties? It's a 15% haste effect, which is the same as the spell Haste correct? It won't last as long as normal Haste, at least not until you get a bit more summoning skill and higher level, BUT it's cheaper to cast if you want to haste 3+ party members. It just seems odd this isn't used more. I always see Aerial Armor being used, and I would think that an AoE Haste effect would be much better than an AoE Blink effect.

And at high levels, (70+), is Crimson Howl worthwhile? Just eyeballing it, it looks like it would last about 2:30 at lvl 75, which would be a hefty boost IMO.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

Next big question, why do hardly any summoners ever use Garuda's Hastega in exp parties? It's a 15% haste effect, which is the same as the spell Haste correct? It won't last as long as normal Haste, at least not until you get a bit more summoning skill and higher level, BUT it's cheaper to cast if you want to haste 3+ party members. It just seems odd this isn't used more. I always see Aerial Armor being used, and I would think that an AoE Haste effect would be much better than an AoE Blink effect.

Hastega is MP inefficient; the break even point is not three people--it is actually between FIVE to SIX people.

If the party isn't desperate for offensive buffs, it's usually a better idea to use the MP for other things. Unless you're just rolling in MP with two or three Refershers in your party for some odd reason.

[Malacite]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

On that subject, would it kill SE to increase the power of some of these buffs? The last update for summoning skill was a joke IMO.

How about just a direct increase to avatar and BP performance? Make Hastega a 20-25% buff so it's at least on par with a BRD's Double March. For the MP it costs and the short duration it has it should at least be decent.

The same goes for the other lolbuffs.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

Oh, I don't know. Hastega is supposed to bad MP efficiency wise, I think, since it's convenient time wise. (That said, a slight boost to duration can't hurt ... )

Aerial Armor is decent for traditional style parties, keeping DD's and healers who occasionally step past the enmity threshold from getting beat up too badly. Earthen Ward is more of the same, freeing people from having to use 'unnatural combos' like MNK/NIN. Shining Ruby is also not that shabby for PLD tanks.

But, SMN isn't just about its buffs; the Tier II and IV elemental nukes from Avatars are relatively cheap (dirt cheap if not counting summoning/perpetuation cost), and came earlier than BLM's versions, I believe. The Lv.70 Blood Pacts are also quite good.

I do agree SMN can use some tweaking, though. Seems like there are a lot of good ideas in the design, but as implemented came off as meh-ish in mid to high level exp'ing. It'd be nice to have some improvements to SMN without really increasing their effectiveness in special fights and "end game" situations.

[Gobo]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

Hastega actually can hit the 3 min cap quite easily compared to the other min duration abilities. With only needing 30 more skill over cap, merits, torque and Evokers's ring will put you over the top for hitting the duration cap on Hastega. So with the 3 min cap through skill, Hastega= hasting 3 players (and more efficient if you hit more). Only real draw back is you'll lose about 15-40 MP from perpetuation.

As for your first question, Spring Water>Whispering wind. For exactly the reasons you stated as well. (Cures more HP, cures status effects, costs less). I'm going to go with SMN being lazy and already having Garuda out.

Crimson Howl, its got a higher boost than Warcry and I honestly cannot remember if it stacks with Warcry, but I'm going to say no. As to why people use it, I dunno, it never really appealed to me when I first got it, so I really haven't bothered to use it post skill up date. 1 skill=1 sec of duration, so if you had optimal SMN skill gear (Merits, Torque, Evok. Ring, Smn earring, Smn Brcr+1, Marduk's Tiara, Marduk's Shalwar, Marduk's Crakcows, Bahamut's Staff) the longest duration you can get is 105 sec. Since the Tiara is the only thing that cannot be obtain atm (no reported drops on the Enlil's Tiara to make it, Zhaylom Remnants lvl 35 drops are still shrouded in mystery), its not that far fetched. AF1 horn will do pretty much the same, with only 2 less seconds duration. I'll mess around with it, but not today. Today is write a lab report day.

And personally, I really enjoy the Smn skill update. Being able to have merits in Avatar Attack and Magic attack, while keeping acc high with skill gear, is such a nice thing.

EDIT: Totally forgot to include this. Don't really bother with Hastega until you've either capped your skill and hit the +30 skill mark, which is pretty impossible until you are 75. Most skill you can get mid lvls is +15, so its not really worth it to use.

[Malacite]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

The problem with the Tier 2 and 4 nukes from avatars is that BLM still out damages them easily with some of their tier 1 and 3 nukes respectively.

That IMO, is BS. BLM doesn't have the 1 minute time restriction, nor are they gods of the elements. So would it kill SE to strengthen bloodpacts directly, or have summoning magic skill boost them? (And not by going over the cap like that stupid update; I mean scaling power based on level that can occur naturally and not just with gear and merits)

[Vyuru]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

Totally forgot to include this. Don't really bother with Hastega until you've either capped your skill and hit the +30 skill mark, which is pretty impossible until you are 75. Most skill you can get mid lvls is +15, so its not really worth it to use.

And perhaps I'm missing something here.

Reading the descriptions on FFxiclopedia, it sounds like the buff avatar pacts work like this:

You get Hastega at summoning skill level of say, 144.
Base duration is 1:30, +3 seconds for each summoning skill point you have over the level that you learn the ability at.

So say you level up, and your summoning skill goes up to 145, Hastega now lasts for 1:33, when it goes up to 146 skill the timer increases to 1:36.

Or is it the case that regardless of level, when your summoning skill is capped Hastega will last 1:30, and any additional +skill over the current cap is what adds to the buff's duration? So like, Austere/Penance, merits, etc?

[Malacite]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

You don't get blood pacts at skill levels, your avatars learn them as you hit specific levels of SMN.

In order to get any kind of bonus on blood pacts, your skill has to be a certain level (I really don't know how much) above your current skill cap to see any kind of benefit. That means if you had more than your skill cap, but then level up and have to skill up again, you lose those benefits until your skill catches up again.

[Gobo]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

Got to test out Crimson Howl vs Warcry.

Crimson Howl overrides Warcry, which I assume is because Crimson Howl is a stronger buff. So why don't people use it. Got me, though I guess it has to do with Warcry giving Enmity, which can be very useful. Plus, you would have to reapply it every time your Ward timer was up, to keep the effect going, forgoing other Ward BPs that might be better to use. Each to his own I suppose.

Also Mal, don't forget to take into consideration that all BPs give the target 0 TP, while BLM nukes give 10.

[Rain_Blade]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

This is mostly dealing with the buff bloodpacts, and a few specific questions and general questions I have on them.

Whispering Wind vs Spring Water:

Almost every summoner I know uses Whispering Wind instead of Spring Water, why is this? Looking at the ffxiclopdia info on them, Spring Water is stronger, and has an AoE Erase effect, and costs less mp to cast:

Whispering Wind: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Whispering_Wind

Spring Water: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Spring_Water

And this is lvl 50+ I'm talking about, so they have access to both Leviathan and Garuda and both of these bloodpacts.


Next big question, why do hardly any summoners ever use Garuda's Hastega in exp parties? It's a 15% haste effect, which is the same as the spell Haste correct? It won't last as long as normal Haste, at least not until you get a bit more summoning skill and higher level, BUT it's cheaper to cast if you want to haste 3+ party members. It just seems odd this isn't used more. I always see Aerial Armor being used, and I would think that an AoE Haste effect would be much better than an AoE Blink effect.

And at high levels, (70+), is Crimson Howl worthwhile? Just eyeballing it, it looks like it would last about 2:30 at lvl 75, which would be a hefty boost IMO.

Hmm. I've never seen anyone prefer Whispering Wind over Spring Water. For Hastega, Haste lasts longer. Basically, it's like you could be using something else. Not everyone in the party will be asking for Haste so Hastega isn't necessary. For Aerial Armor, that's pretty much just for protecting the party if they seem to get hit a lot. Mostly Ecliptic Howl and Growl are used. I also use Earthen Ward if there's a lot of /nins in the party.
For Crimson Howl, I think it's still like around 30 seconds.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

Crimson Howl overrides Warcry, which I assume is because Crimson Howl is a stronger buff. So why don't people use it. Got me, though I guess it has to do with Warcry giving Enmity, which can be very useful.

According to FFXIclopedia, Crimson Howl is Attack+15%, lasts for 30 seconds (without going over Summoning skill cap), for 84 MP. Warcry is Attack+5.25%, lasts for 30 seconds, for 0 MP.

MP usage aside, Crimson Howl is definitely a stronger buff than Warcry... About the same as Last Resort, but not nearly as nice as Berserk's Attack+25%.

[Gobo]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

According to FFXIclopedia, Crimson Howl is Attack+15%, lasts for 30 seconds (without going over Summoning skill cap), for 84 MP. Warcry is Attack+5.25%, lasts for 30 seconds, for 0 MP.
MP usage aside, Crimson Howl is definitely a stronger buff than Warcry... About the same as Last Resort, but not nearly as nice as Berserk's Attack+25%.

Main reason I was testing to see which, if any, overrid (thats not a word but w/e) the other was because the game classifies both effects as Warcry. I'm going out on a limb here and will say there are 2 types of warcry, player warcry (the ones WAR get) and mob warcry, since according to THFs, mob warcry is a much larger boost than player warcry.

[Armando]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

I'm going out on a limb here and will say there are 2 types of warcry, player warcry (the ones WAR get) and mob warcry, since according to THFs, mob warcry is a much larger boost than player warcry.

Minor nitpick here, but it's impractical to think of it as "two types of Warcry." It isn't really that there's different types of buffs/effects; it's just that any given effect can have variable potency and variable (overwriting) priority, and these two factors are totally independent to boot. (For example, Armor Break's Defense Down is stronger than Acid Bolt's, but they have the same priority.) Fenrir's Warcry isn't necessarily the same as the beastmen's just because it's not the kind players use.

[Malacite]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

Fenrir's Warcry isn't necessarily the same as the beastmen's just because it's not the kind players use.

Ifrit actually.

[Armando]

Re: Bloodpacts, which are usefull and which aren't?

Ah, right. Thanks XD