Summoner/White mage GAH!

[Silent Howler]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

The thing about Blm though is that it isn't nearly as useful as a sub. Yes, it is a DD role, but none of your magic attacks are cost efficient. As people have said, you would probably be better off letting your avatar melee than cast a magic attack.

[Aushi]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Alright, then if nuking is just too weak what are the other gains that come from /blm. One is the MP pool, how much of a gain to mp is /blm though? Also, would it be efficient to just use the extra MP to keep avatars out longer?

[Feenicks]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

There ARE no other gains to using /BLM, this is what we've been trying to tell you all along. You'll get like 10 extra MP using /BLM instead of /WHM, which is so close to useless that it's heartbreaking. The BLM Job Traits that you'll get are Magic Attack Bonus, which doesn't work on avatars, Clear Mind, which you'll get as /WHM, Conserve MP, which doesn't affect Blood Pact costs, and that's it. It's not just your nukes that are too weak too, all your enfeebling spells will never land because your skill is crippled. Which leaves you with Warp, Escape and Spikes spells, all of which have no use to you as a SMN except for in very isolated cases.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Alright, then if nuking is just too weak what are the other gains that come from /blm. One is the MP pool, how much of a gain to mp is /blm though? Also, would it be efficient to just use the extra MP to keep avatars out longer?

According to this site:

Tarutaru SMN75/WHM37 - HP:694 MP:978
Tarutaru SMN75/BLM37 - HP:675 MP:997

That is 19 MP difference between /WHM and /BLM, at Lv.75, if I did the math right. Of course, if MP is really a concern, you'd go with /BRD for Ballad--that's a free 1MP every three seconds.

If people are not recommending /BRD for MP, they sure aren't going to recommend /BLM for it. (Hint: For good reasons, too!)

[HairdewX]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

one side effect from healing all the time is that my summoning skill is quite low for my level >_<

[Silent Howler]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

one side effect from healing all the time is that my summoning skill is quite low for my level >_<

Yes, and for people like me who already have their healing skill capped for my lvl, it's even more annoying. But at least you can get your skill up from simply summoning. And keep in mind, you won't always be asked to main heal. And even when you are asked, you don't have to say yes.

In fact, it might be good to try and form your own parties rather than wait for an invite. That way you can make sure you have a Whm or Rdm in the party to main heal so you can use your avatars.

[Saren]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Alright, then if nuking is just too weak what are the other gains that come from /blm. One is the MP pool, how much of a gain to mp is /blm though? Also, would it be efficient to just use the extra MP to keep avatars out longer?

Just to collect this stuff all in one place again. Yellow mage mentioned the only reasons any job chooses to /blm on page two and, as he mostly said, the problem is that they just don't really work for smn:

1. The mp - See Itazura's post, it's just not a reason to sub it. I checked and actually, the difference between /whm and /blm at level 26 (the level you mentioned being in your first post) is 7 mp, it's negligible.

2. Conserve MP - doesn't give any real benefit to smn because it can only kick in on the initial summoning of avatars not on the blood pact costs. Given that that initial cost is going to be a maximum of 15 mp you might save perhaps 6mp every other fight.

3. The damage/elemental dubuff spells - doesn't work, it's been explained several times, doesn't work. Silent Howler's quote from Omniblast kind of drives that one home well.

4. Elemental seal - pretty much gives you guranteed a resist free blm spell. On rdm/blm it's useful because they have native enfeebling and elemental skill, on whm/blm it works because whm have the native enfeebling skill to elemental seal + sleep and it will actually land on an exp mob. Smn has no native enfeebling skill so they can't pull the same trick with sleep. You could use it to ensure max loldamage on one of your nukes but only once every 10 minutes.

5. Warp/escape - not a reason to choose it as an exp sub.

6. MAB -

Magic Attack Bonus: Increases the damage of spells you do by 20% with the first trait, obtained at level 20/blm10. Again, about this time your elemental magic skill will be woefully behind due to its half level cap. While mainjob blms will be starting to notice their magic getting resisted a little more, you might not even know what full damage looks like. MAB has no effect on the potency of your avatar's attacks.

Emphasis mine.




The trouble is that whm is just such a good subjob. You get relevant cures at every level, all but one status cures, raise, protectra 2 and shellra 2 at high levels. /whm gives you comparible mp with any other subjob choice and much better utility. As Silent howler said, you can go /whm and just throw out the odd cure or status removal when the main healer is struggling, you don’t have to main heal in parties as smn even with /whm and you don’t have to say yes if people ask you to.

[Shota]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Wouldn't it be easier to just thump em in the back of the head then write a paper on why not!? hehe

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Wouldn't it be easier to just thump em in the back of the head then write a paper on why not!? hehe

lol. If we only could.

Sunday newspaper should be about the right size...

[Taskmage]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Alright, then if nuking is just too weak what are the other gains that come from /blm. One is the MP pool, how much of a gain to mp is /blm though? Also, would it be efficient to just use the extra MP to keep avatars out longer?

I think it was discussed earlier in the thread that the mp gains from /blm are pretty insignificant. If Itazura's math is right and there's only a 19 mp difference at level 75, then that probably means before level 40 you're going to be seeing less than 10 difference. Not even two ticks of avatar perpetuation. /blm also gives you the Conserve MP trait, which sounds good but it can only apply to the initial casting cost of avatars, not their perpetuation cost which is what really drains your mp.

Unfortunately, there's really not much you can do to enhance the damage dealing capability of your avatar. Your avatar's stats are based strictly on your level and the only thing that modifies them are pieces of equipment that specifically say "enhances avatar attack/accuracy/etc." Also, having nothing in the way of other magical skills, summoner can make practically no use of any offensive magic they get from subjobs.

If you want to be a better DD, really the key is to get better at MP management so that you can afford to do more offensive BPs. Also, you might try to learn how to time your BP attacks to make skillchains with other party members to squeeze out a little more damage. Moonlit Charge and Double Punch can close Gravitation for example, and Double Slap can close Distortion. Technically summoner can self-skillchain by doing a WS and a BP in succession, but I wouldn't really recommend it. The way staff, dagger and avatar skills are placed on the skillchain chart, either the summoner or the avatar is going to end up using a skill that's basically trash to pull off a self-SC.

If you really want to do something unconventional to increase your performance, and I preface this by saying you should always be prepared to /whm instead if that's what the party needs, is to focus on your staff. A summoner's staff skill is rated B, which is not good but neither is it quite as bad as people think in the early-mid levels of the game. Since you're not going to be able to sit while your avatar is out anyway, if your party is sufficiently covered on healing, and the mob doesn't have any worrisome AoE attacks that might kill you, you might try pulling out a decently high damage pole and melee. At 20+ you could sub rng for accuracy bonus, at 30+ you could sub blm for the +5 staff skill belt but rng would probably be better, and at 40/50+ you could sub sam for Zanshin and Hasso, but do note that the melee benefits of these subs are relatively small and there's no reason you can't sub whm and still be effective in melee.

For better or for worse, smn is a hybrid/versatile job like rdm. With few exceptions (70+ and Astral Flow in early-mid game) it's never going to be able to deal damage better than a dedicated DD job like blm, nor is it as good of a healer as whm or as good of a buffer as say brd or cor. What it can do is provide all three of those things in smaller doses and shift its focus to give the party whatever it needs the most.

[Galaxia]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

SMN/WHM is kinda like the Yuna type role.
With the power of the Avatars(Aeons) and the power to use Healing spells.
Yuna was used as a Healer by alot of ppl on X.

Summoners are basicly a all in one system.
Buffs, Heals, Damage

I go SMN/WHM because I like been able to adapt to the situation.

As for /BLM whats the point?
More MP? yea we really need more lol... Not

They have nothing useful to offer with the sub of BLM the dmg can be done with Avatars and then its only half the dmg from a BLM due to the Subs lvl.

/WHM can throw out heals and other buffs and still have the damage of the Summoner.

If you are the PT's Healer then just manage ya MP I can DD and Heal with no worries.

[Rain_Blade]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

SMN/WHM is kinda like the Yuna type role.
With the power of the Avatars(Aeons) and the power to use Healing spells.
Yuna was used as a Healer by alot of ppl on X.

Summoners are basicly a all in one system.
Buffs, Heals, Damage

I go SMN/WHM because I like been able to adapt to the situation.

As for /BLM whats the point?
More MP? yea we really need more lol... Not

They have nothing useful to offer with the sub of BLM the dmg can be done with Avatars and then its only half the dmg from a BLM due to the Subs lvl.

/WHM can throw out heals and other buffs and still have the damage of the Summoner.

If you are the PT's Healer then just manage ya MP I can DD and Heal with no worries.

I think Yuna was already implanted with those Cure spells (while learning more during the game) from when you first play her. Summoners in FFXI, on the other hand, were not.

[Galaxia]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

You naturaly get the cure spells with /whm from start of game also Like us Yuna has to do a Trial of <Element>

If ya remeber on X ya get em at diffrent points.

^.^

[Skyren]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

The way it's typically been with summoners in past FF games has been that to get their really powerful summons the character must beat the creature in battle first. In this way FFXI summoners really aren't that different.
The thing that frustrates me so much about playing summoner in XI is that without my summons I can do nothing. I have no other magic (from my main job) that I can call on which doesn't drain MP rapidly (I'm only 35 right now so my access to -perpetuation equipment is...limited at best). Plus I'm physically weak so melee is pretty much out of the question. And we all know how frustrating it can be to sit back and watch your avatar whiff four times in a row while you just spent all that MP on perp.
Actually now that I'm thinking of it, has anybody compared the resist rates of blm spells versus the acc of our avatars? Every time a blm's spell is resisted it's lowers his damage per MP ratio, and every time our avatars miss it lowers our damage per MP ratio. I'm betting that the blm would still outclass us on damage per MP, but that might be what SE was going for.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Hmm. In terms of visible damage/MP efficiency, I think the general order is probably:

RDM's En-spells > Physical Blue Magic* > BLM's nukes > avatar melee

Of course, Haste on a decked out SAM will probably produce better additional damage from the MP spent... But, no one will remember the dutiful RDM or WHM who casted that spell as they eye the SAM with envy...

Somehow, that feels wrong. ._.

* On BLU's dmg/MP efficiency

On BLU last night, from Lv.22->Lv.23, exp'ed off T-VT crabs with a few ITs tossed in. 3.68 dmg/MP efficiency overall, including Sprout Smack which was more used for enfeeb than damage. Would've been even better if we had a way of dispelling Scissor Guard.

For a SMN to match that efficiency with an 100% accurate Fenrir at the Lv.23:
MP/min (perpetuation only): 80 MP/min
dmg/min needed: 294.3 dmg/min
swing/min (assuming 240 delay): 15
dmg/swing needed: 19.6

If 75% accuracy, would need 26.1 dmg/hit.


I don't have Fenrir or SMN at that level, so I'll leave it to others to say whether that's possible or not.