Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

[SharMarali]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

I guess I don't get this whole "Diabolos is necessary" thing. As Shirai pointed out, his usefulness is incredibly limited, in all reality. I was a 75 SMN when the Diabolos pact was released. I have to say, after getting him, I didn't feel the least bit cheated by not having had him throughout the levels. Because of the specific PT setups my Limbus/Sea linkshell uses for Proto-Ultima, I do wind up using Noctoshield a fair amount. That is because the linkshell has chosen to use two PLD/NIN tanks, two BRDs, a WHM, and a SMN in the tank PT. So I put Noctoshield on them every few minutes when it wears off, and I keep Stoneskin on them as much as I can in the meantime. If the linkshell had felt that it would be more beneficial to put a RDM in place of one of the BRDs, then obviously the RDM would be using Phalanx II and I'd just be spamming Earthen Ward. That's not the game plan right now, so I use Diabolos.

I actually use Diabolos for sky gods too. A lot of people have said that the meritable blood pacts deal stronger damage. That hasn't been my experience at all, so I'm curious, did you guys merit the same blood pact multiple times? Do you have the luxury of allowing the avatar to stay out and gain 100% TP before you use the pact? There has got to be something different that you guys are doing, because mine always get resisted rather nastily and I wind up just sticking with Nether Blast.

Except for these two situations, I don't really use Diabolos at all. And I'd hardly expect a level 40ish SMN to be thinking ahead to sky and Proto-Ultima when determining whether to play the job or not, because that's a LONG way off.

Fenrir IS very useful and I AM very glad I had him from level 37 onward. When I first picked up the SMN job, I took it from 1 to 37 as an alternate SJ for my RDM (which I used a couple of times situationally and haven't used since), and Fenrir had *just* been released as a pact, so nobody was really willing to go with me to fight him. I leveled from 1-37 in a static PT of people who had high-level jobs already, and they said that if they really cared that much about me having Fenrir, we'd go fight him. They didn't, so we didn't. At that time, I didn't have any intention of leveling SMN any further. But, about a year later, I ended up getting Fenrir anyway because a friend of mine roped me into helping out with the fight. Once I had him, I thought "well, it'd be a waste to have the pact and never use it.." so I decided to level SMN for a couple of levels.

The funny thing is, a lot of people requested for me to use Fenrir... But he didn't have any useful pacts for about 10 levels after I picked up SMN again. So basically, they were requesting him just to see him and go "Look, our SMN has Fenrir! Ha-ha!" At that time, it was still fairly rare for a low level SMN to have Fenrir, and people were only requesting for me to summon him just to show off a trophy, that they were in a PT with a level 37 SMN who *did* have him. It annoyed me, to be honest, because I was there to do my job to the best of my abilities, not to show off a dog that was useless at that level.

Fenrir doesn't become terribly useful until the late 40's, and even then, he's not REALLY useful until 55. I wouldn't fault a SMN for not worrying about him at all until 55, because it's just not that critical. It'd be like expecting a PLD to have staff skill leveled for tanking at level 25. OK, I guess you could make an argument for completeness, but come on, staff tanking doesn't even come in to play until 51 when the Earth staff is equippable, and it's much, much later before PLD gets Spirit Taker to make staff tanking REALLY useful.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

I do disagree, I get it that you have to have everything perfect, some people are just naturally like that(I like to have some things perfect myself.) I just disagree with the notion of perfection.

I just do not understand that when I pointed out that SMN isn't just used for BP's and voiced my own oppinion that you decided to go off on a rant (it is a rant, you don't post something that long dissagreeing with a disagreement for it to not be a rant.) Is there something your trying to prove?

Back to the OP and topic of this thread Diabolos seems like an interesting avatar, I have yet to meet someone who asked me in an exp party if I have him (I don't.) Just don't worry about what others think when it comes to what you have yet, you have useful skills that a party would be happy to have, whatever your missing can be negated by party set-up and if you really have a huge problem then just make sure you have in your search comment that you do not have (Insert whatever here) avatar.

Players who want you to have everything maynot invite you but you won't have to worry about a missconception in your abilities.

You continue to misconstrue my words and my meaning. So, I apologize if you feel any certain way about my post. However, be that as it may, let's end that part of the discussion because its like unto silk; the fabric is eye-catching, but easily slips within one's grasp.

I don't portend, rather yet, do I even asseverate the notion of elitist-ism (which isn't even a word, but you know how slang works.) By definition, elitist-ism, per popular culture that I am aware of, is the belief of a group of individuals that feels superior in all ways and portrays an attitude of hierarchical expertise, while displaying aversive attitudes towards those of the "defunct in skill." Such individuals rarely associate themselves with the ideas of teamwork and cammaraderie that's necessary in, what I would call, an ideal party experience. Elitists are quite adept at rattling the cages of the others and spreading a bogus sense of community.

Now, I will admit, I have been playing for over 3 years. That's neither here nor there, however. When I play, I play for fun, with kindness, and usually with little time. I do -not- play with an elitist attitude. So crash your reservations and assertations of such upon the rocky shores of -that- conversation and leave them there.

I'll repeat myself.

I don't like the idea of people coming to party without all of the tools necessary to accomplish the task at hand. However, I end up working with the situation and it turns out to be fun, usually. However, there are times when someone missing a particular tool has cost the party to pay for it. So my idea is, why be a part of a group and lack in your skills? Is that really cool to other ppl?

I played WHM as my first job. When I hit level 32, I needed to get Erase. At that time, it cost 300k on the AH. It may as well been 10mil, because I couldn't afford it. Well, I tried to play whm for a few levels until 36 when I got teleports and realized, "I really need this spell." There were times when ppl needed to get rid of evasion down and bio and stuff.

SO...

... I got with friends in my LS and farmed. I also participated in some bcnms. It took me about 2 weeks to get enough gil up to buy erase. The funny thing about it was, my friends ended up offering to take me and help me get Erase since we all played alot together, so I ended up getting it for free from my friends. That rocked.

So why can't ppl work their way up a job? What makes someone else so special that they don't need to bring all their tools to the table? This is a normal, general, valid question. Why not just play another job until you can get HL to get Fenrir and Diabolos. I mean, you're missing out on some of the fun of enjoying the two avatars. Now granted, I'll accept the fact ppl feel they are trophies. I just disagree. They have valid uses and can make a difference in party. Yes I'm fully aware the accuracy of E.howl is not congruent w/blade madrigal. That's not in question. What's in question is, if your skill has the ability to make or break a party, why come to party -without it?- lol

I just don't think its cool to play in a team atmosphere and come to it with half of your abilities and expecting everyone to be hunky dory with it. I mean, when a time comes that you need something from someone else's job and they can't provide it "simply because they haven't gotten it yet," I mean, the idea is simplistic, it's not very friendly. FF11 is a game of being forced to network with others. If you aren't making yourself a team player, then you're liable to get trademarked quickly as "one of those players that does whatever they want at the expense of others." I've seen it too many times. And its a valid situation.

There is another mmorpg most ppl will be familiar with called "WoW." Now, in that game, its more cartoony, geared toward a younger audience, and requires less than impeccable amounts of time and work to accomplish a goal or foster any skill. The mindset on that game is quite lacking, because I've played it. I much rather prefer FF11 because #1.) its more conservative, 2.) more mature in storyline (but debatable in articulate content) and 3.) move invovling and deeply rooted, starting out to finish.

I don't like the approach of copious amounts of sophomoric attitudes when it comes to things. But, the general player base of mmo's these days are geared towards that it seems. It sucks, I deal with it, life goes on, right? So, when I get a chance to express, someone may feel the same. If not, no problemo..... if you just play the game to log on, get xp, and log off, and not care about any other situations other than that, more power to ya. Just don't expect everyone to be hunky dory w/your playstyle.

Anyway, taking a microsopic look at the 2 avatars at hand, Fenrir and Diabolos, one can form several opinions. The one that sticks out in my mind is this: I've been in several parties where the evasion boost was a godsend for IT+ monsters on my nin. It -really- made my job alot easier and helped save me a few times in casting a bunch of utsu. I've been in parties where a very under equipped war, who war was his first job, had horrid gear and questionable accuracy. Fenrir made those situations smoother w/the E.howl thing. I mean, sure the acc was still lacking for the war, but that didn't mean e.howl was worthless towards him. However, I'm willing to back up on E.howl. Going by my feelings, I've just never seen it to -not- work effectively in party.

Now then, do NINs these days usually gear up w/a sheet load of evasion to help them in their job. Sure. Do wars usually equip sushi and att gear to get by in their situation? Sure. But, the undeniable fact remains, that.... Fenrir's E.Howl still has the ability to help in situations where warranted and needed. So, to come to a party without it, when, let's say, you have underequipped jobs that could benefit from it, is gimp. Now... again, repeating myself, do ppl still get by with it. Sure. Do ppl just go on with it and live and let live? Yes. That doesn't mean it still doesn't suxx0rz because you're forced to put up with it.

So the original statement was about not wanting ppl to backlash oneself for not having an ability. Well, that's a ridiculous notion. Wouldn't you think? I couldn't think of being more on topic than discussing the original intent.

I guess I just take my game playing serious. I dunno, sorry? If I wanted to go play a frivilous, high-energy game, I'd go play Super Mario Kart. Anyway, its fine that people still party and do what they want and get by. There's nothing wrong with a get-by attitude, until it causes a mishap. Then that sux. But, eh.... peoples is peoples. They'll do whatever they want regardless of logical or illogical thinking.

I hate it when words are taken out of context, btw lol.

[Shirai]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

I guess I don't get this whole "Diabolos is necessary" thing. As Shirai pointed out, his usefulness is incredibly limited, in all reality. I was a 75 SMN when the Diabolos pact was released. I have to say, after getting him, I didn't feel the least bit cheated by not having had him throughout the levels. Because of the specific PT setups my Limbus/Sea linkshell uses for Proto-Ultima, I do wind up using Noctoshield a fair amount. That is because the linkshell has chosen to use two PLD/NIN tanks, two BRDs, a WHM, and a SMN in the tank PT. So I put Noctoshield on them every few minutes when it wears off, and I keep Stoneskin on them as much as I can in the meantime. If the linkshell had felt that it would be more beneficial to put a RDM in place of one of the BRDs, then obviously the RDM would be using Phalanx II and I'd just be spamming Earthen Ward. That's not the game plan right now, so I use Diabolos.

Oh Diabolos definately has it's uses, but as a whole I'm kind of disapointed in his usefulness.

I actually use Diabolos for sky gods too. A lot of people have said that the meritable blood pacts deal stronger damage. That hasn't been my experience at all, so I'm curious, did you guys merit the same blood pact multiple times? Do you have the luxury of allowing the avatar to stay out and gain 100% TP before you use the pact? There has got to be something different that you guys are doing, because mine always get resisted rather nastily and I wind up just sticking with Nether Blast.

Depends on which you use on what god, I just merited them all and have a considereble amount of skill over cap.
As you have noticed perhaps, Nether blast gets resisted by the lesser gods.
On Genbu Thunderstorm does considerably more damage then Nether Blast does.
About 100/150 more.

On the other gods I use physical Blood pacts, on Kirin also.
My Predator Claws has a 90% landing rate on him and most of the time outdamages Nether Blast.
It's a gamble as Kirin can move during the command or the chance of missing entirely.
But I'm willing to take it.

[SharMarali]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Anyway, taking a microsopic look at the 2 avatars at hand, Fenrir and Diabolos, one can form several opinions. The one that sticks out in my mind is this: I've been in several parties where the evasion boost was a godsend for IT+ monsters on my nin. It -really- made my job alot easier and helped save me a few times in casting a bunch of utsu. I've been in parties where a very under equipped war, who war was his first job, had horrid gear and questionable accuracy. Fenrir made those situations smoother w/the E.howl thing. I mean, sure the acc was still lacking for the war, but that didn't mean e.howl was worthless towards him. However, I'm willing to back up on E.howl. Going by my feelings, I've just never seen it to -not- work effectively in party.

OK, I want to zero in on this one point of your post, because it's the one I really don't understand at all. Yes, I read the entire thing, and yes, I know that you said that MOST WARs come to the table with a decent amount of +ACC gear and sushi and whatnot, and what you're speaking of in the above paragraph is the exception.

So the question I pose to you is, if you were in a PT with a WAR who was wearing incredibly crappy equipment (for the sake of argument, let's just say full AF, tiger rings, you know, total junk) and a SMN who did not have Fenrir... Who exactly would be at fault for the WAR's lousy accuracy? I don't think it's the SMN.

Fenrir's stat boosts, both howl AND growl, are meant to enhance a player's existing stats, assuming that the player gave enough of a flying crap to put some thought and effort into their equipment. He's NOT meant to be used to give DDs a free pass to wear a bunch of garbage equipment because hey, that SMN should be able to give me accuracy.

The argument that a SMN should have avatars that are extremely difficult to get at lower levels in order to compensate for DDs who are just plain too lazy to farm the necessary gil to obtain accuracy equipment seems silly to me. That's like saying a WHM absolutely MUST own a Vermillion cloak the minute he or she reaches level 59, just in case he finds himself in a PT with a RDM who doesn't feel like casting refresh. While a v.cloak is an extremely helpful piece of equipment for a WHM to have from 59 through 67, it is, by no means, NECESSARY. Which is my argument about Fenrir and Diabolos as well. They (okay, mostly Fenrir) are extremely useful to have, certainly. But NECESSARY? Not really.

There's a big, big, big difference between, say, a NIN that doesn't have Utsusemi: Ni and a SMN who doesn't have Diabolos. One cannot do their job at all. The other can, but maybe not exactly the way you, personally, want them to.

[Telera]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

So why can't ppl work their way up a job? What makes someone else so special that they don't need to bring all their tools to the table? This is a normal, general, valid question. Why not just play another job until you can get HL to get Fenrir and Diabolos. I mean, you're missing out on some of the fun of enjoying the two avatars.

Well, as one of the people who didn't work up to a HL on another job, let me give you my reason for not doing so:

I simply don't have the time. If you look at my profile, you will see I am level 60 summoner. As anyone who knows me or has seen me post regularly will attest to, I have been 60 since before last Halloween. Part of this was wanting to get Fenrir before continuing, but the majority of it was a massive burn out on the game and community, coupled with the massive schedule shake up that comes with working Retail during the holiday season. My static partner (my b/f) and I couldn't find times that worked for both of us, and we were both just sort of sick of the entire deal.

To be honest with you, aside from Summoner there is probably only one job I would take to 75 and enjoy it. That would be Dragoon. Dragoons, however, are useless in a conventional pt against Fenrir, so I would still be up against a similar situation I was placed in as a 60 Summoner: inability to really fight the thing. I would still have had to find either a group of summoners, or struggle through consistent failures with a 'regular' party.

And in continuing my blunt honesty, if I had been forced into levelling another job before summoner all the way to 70+, not only would I still not have achieved that goal, but I would have gotten very disheartened and bored and would have quit the game long ago. And when I say I will quit a game, I do. I left SWG the day the NGE nerf came down. I don't blow smoke when I say things like that; if I say it, I mean it.

There simply isn't enough of a passion in me for any of the other jobs. Definitely not enough of one to do it to 70 and do it well.

To those who do level another job first, I salute them. But it just wouldn't have fit my time constraints. I have Fenrir at 60, which is a general area in which he starts to become what I would deem 'necessary.' Diabolos, however, as other more knowledgable Summoners have attested to, is only useful in distinct circumstances. Not to say I won't get him, but I'm definitely in no rush.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

OK, I want to zero in on this one point of your post, because it's the one I really don't understand at all. Yes, I read the entire thing, and yes, I know that you said that MOST WARs come to the table with a decent amount of +ACC gear and sushi and whatnot, and what you're speaking of in the above paragraph is the exception.

So the question I pose to you is, if you were in a PT with a WAR who was wearing incredibly crappy equipment (for the sake of argument, let's just say full AF, tiger rings, you know, total junk) and a SMN who did not have Fenrir... Who exactly would be at fault for the WAR's lousy accuracy? I don't think it's the SMN.

Fenrir's stat boosts, both howl AND growl, are meant to enhance a player's existing stats, assuming that the player gave enough of a flying crap to put some thought and effort into their equipment. He's NOT meant to be used to give DDs a free pass to wear a bunch of garbage equipment because hey, that SMN should be able to give me accuracy.

The argument that a SMN should have avatars that are extremely difficult to get at lower levels in order to compensate for DDs who are just plain too lazy to farm the necessary gil to obtain accuracy equipment seems silly to me. That's like saying a WHM absolutely MUST own a Vermillion cloak the minute he or she reaches level 59, just in case he finds himself in a PT with a RDM who doesn't feel like casting refresh. While a v.cloak is an extremely helpful piece of equipment for a WHM to have from 59 through 67, it is, by no means, NECESSARY. Which is my argument about Fenrir and Diabolos as well. They (okay, mostly Fenrir) are extremely useful to have, certainly. But NECESSARY? Not really.

There's a big, big, big difference between, say, a NIN that doesn't have Utsusemi: Ni and a SMN who doesn't have Diabolos. One cannot do their job at all. The other can, but maybe not exactly the way you, personally, want them to.

Their both at fault. That's blantantly obvious. There wasn't an assimiliation of such as what you are referring to. I just simply won't sway my opinion. I think if you're going to play SMN for 75 levels w/o Fenrir or Diabolos, you're gimp and potentially going to come across times where you could have used Fenrir most of all and his buffs could assist the party. Diablos not so much, but whose to really say Phalanx can't help dot mitigation over time for a tank?

The thing about Vermillion Cloak, while builds an interesting point, is not a spell or ability. It's a piece of equipment and is not on the same platform as what two avatars w/a range of abilities provides.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Well, as one of the people who didn't work up to a HL on another job, let me give you my reason for not doing so:

I simply don't have the time. If you look at my profile, you will see I am level 60 summoner. As anyone who knows me or has seen me post regularly will attest to, I have been 60 since before last Halloween. Part of this was wanting to get Fenrir before continuing, but the majority of it was a massive burn out on the game and community, coupled with the massive schedule shake up that comes with working Retail during the holiday season. My static partner (my b/f) and I couldn't find times that worked for both of us, and we were both just sort of sick of the entire deal.

To be honest with you, aside from Summoner there is probably only one job I would take to 75 and enjoy it. That would be Dragoon. Dragoons, however, are useless in a conventional pt against Fenrir, so I would still be up against a similar situation I was placed in as a 60 Summoner: inability to really fight the thing. I would still have had to find either a group of summoners, or struggle through consistent failures with a 'regular' party.

And in continuing my blunt honesty, if I had been forced into levelling another job before summoner all the way to 70+, not only would I still not have achieved that goal, but I would have gotten very disheartened and bored and would have quit the game long ago. And when I say I will quit a game, I do. I left SWG the day the NGE nerf came down. I don't blow smoke when I say things like that; if I say it, I mean it.

There simply isn't enough of a passion in me for any of the other jobs. Definitely not enough of one to do it to 70 and do it well.

To those who do level another job first, I salute them. But it just wouldn't have fit my time constraints. I have Fenrir at 60, which is a general area in which he starts to become what I would deem 'necessary.' Diabolos, however, as other more knowledgable Summoners have attested to, is only useful in distinct circumstances. Not to say I won't get him, but I'm definitely in no rush.

That's cool. I can feel you on this.

However, you're not complaining when people think that you are gimp for not having the avatars. I respect this.

It's the ppl that want their "cake and eat it to" that I dissapprove of. lol

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Per FFxicylopedia.com:

Blade Madrigal

Stacks with other Madrigal effects.
+27 Accuracy at combined skill 454-471.
+28 Accuracy at combined skill 472-488.
Traversiere +1 adds +4 Accuracy

Sword Madrigal

Stacks with other Madrigal effects.
Caps at +15 Accuracy.
+12 at 225 skill (w/o instrument).
+13 at 239 skill (w/o instrument).
Traversiere +1 adds +4 Accuracy

Concerning Ecliptic Howl:

Total increase in accuracy and evasion are equal to +26, but the exact amounts vary by moon phase.
Full Moon indicates greatest increase in accuracy. New Moon indicates largest increase in evasion.


Someone made note that there was a significant difference between the two abilities.

Difference, yes. Significant, no. It's apparent the ability can be quite useful.

[SharMarali]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Their both at fault. That's blantantly obvious. There wasn't an assimiliation of such as what you are referring to. I just simply won't sway my opinion. I think if you're going to play SMN for 75 levels w/o Fenrir or Diabolos, you're gimp and potentially going to come across times where you could have used Fenrir most of all and his buffs could assist the party. Diablos not so much, but whose to really say Phalanx can't help dot mitigation over time for a tank?
The thing about Vermillion Cloak, while builds an interesting point, is not a spell or ability. It's a piece of equipment and is not on the same platform as what two avatars w/a range of abilities provides.

I hope you don't think this is some kind of attack or whatever. I think it's interesting to have a real debate with somebody with a completely differing opinion from my own and who actually put intelligent thought behind what they said, so I want to take advantage of it while I can have a conversation that doesn't degenerate into "You're a noob! No, you are!"

I disagree that the summoner is at fault for the hypothetical warrior's lousy accuracy. What is the warrior going to do if he's in a PT where the backline is WHM RDM BLM? None of them can boost his accuracy. Everybody is responsible for bringing their own game to the table. If you feel that the summoner failed by not having Fenrir, then you must at least agree that the warrior failed twice as hard by wearing garbage when his ONLY responsibility is to play the damage dealer role. The summoner can, at least, give hastega and earthen ward and various other buffs, as well as dealing some damage as needed. What is the warrior going to do? Stand there and go "You guys kill it, I'm gonna go smoke."

I leveled summoner to 75 without Diabolos. Why? He didn't exist yet. The Diabolos pact was released after I was already a 75 summoner. Does that mean I was gimp and didn't even know it? Should everybody put raising summoner on hold until they're SURE that SE has released all the avatars they're ever going to release? Lots of rumors lately about Phoenix and Odin, you know.

As for the vermillion cloak argument... Yeah, I agree, it is a piece of equipment and not a spell or ability. But equipment is important to. Take that hypothetical warrior as an example. WARs automatically get all their non-meritable JAs as their level increases. They don't have spells. Their job is to buy decent equipment. I'm not saying they HAVE to have the A#1, top-of-the line stuff. But they should put effort and thought into their gear. There's plenty of equipment that does +acc and +atk without costing an arm and a leg, and they should save up for some of the nicer pieces when it's reasonable for them to do so. I think most people would agree.

So why, then, does the summoner have an expectation to get the A#1, top of the line spell list, even when most people are in agreement that Diabolos isn't entirely necessary? To me, that's akin to telling a WAR that they *have* to have a haubergeon. Most WARs choose to get one ANYWAY, but I've PTed with a few who use that level 55 body piece (sorry I have no idea what it's called) and do reasonably well. I'm not talking about endgame WARs, mind you, but ones in the 60's.

As far as spells go... Do you feel that a BRD, in order to be effective, needs to have Scop's Operetta, Fowl Aubade, Goblin Gavotte, Gold Capriccio, and Shining Fantasia? Have you EVER seen a BRD cast one of those songs? Most BRDs have them, just because they're relatively inexpensive, but would you be angry if you were in a PT with a BRD that DIDN'T? Does a RDM need to have all of the self-target bar- spells, and if they're missing some, would you feel that they have no right to be PTing? Do BLUs need to get *every* *single* *one* of their spells to PT, even though a lot of them require more effort to obtain than the spell is even worth? A lot of BLUs go out at 75 and pick up all the spells they missed in the 50's and 60's now that their soloing abilities are up for it. Were they gimp?

Further, does a WHM need to have BLM, RDM, SMN, and BRD all leveled as SJs in order to seek a PT? Situationally, all of these SJs can prove useful. I think most WHMs who have only BLM or only SMN leveled do just fine. Should a WAR be required to raise MNK and SAM as potential SJs, even though they're unlikely to ever be called upon to use them?

I could go on and on, but really, the point is, there is a difference between a necessary tool to bring to a PT and one that is mostly just for show and "completeness." Is a SMN without Fenrir and Diabolos complete? Nah. Neither is one without all 8 spirits. Should they be told that they're not allowed to play SMN without them? I don't think so.

[Nazo]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Slightly off topic but my LS had a crack at getting Diabolos Prime last night for one of our budding smns. WHM, RDM, BLM, NIN, THF, SAM (all 75 except sam who is 70ish). We wiped 3 times, though we came close on the last try. I feel your pain having to get this guy.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

I hope you don't think this is some kind of attack or whatever. I think it's interesting to have a real debate with somebody with a completely differing opinion from my own and who actually put intelligent thought behind what they said, so I want to take advantage of it while I can have a conversation that doesn't degenerate into "You're a noob! No, you are!"

I apologize. The internet is vastly inferior when it comes to delegating inflection of tone. No, I thought of none such as what you speak of, irrevocably.

I disagree that the summoner is at fault for the hypothetical warrior's lousy accuracy. What is the warrior going to do if he's in a PT where the backline is WHM RDM BLM? None of them can boost his accuracy. Everybody is responsible for bringing their own game to the table. If you feel that the summoner failed by not having Fenrir, then you must at least agree that the warrior failed twice as hard by wearing garbage when his ONLY responsibility is to play the damage dealer role. The summoner can, at least, give hastega and earthen ward and various other buffs, as well as dealing some damage as needed. What is the warrior going to do? Stand there and go "You guys kill it, I'm gonna go smoke."

I meant that, I blame both individuals for not bringing their A-game. Now the term A-game apparently is vastly differing in alot of peoples opinions as to what it encompases. For me, I derive such as bringing all the tools/equipment necessary to get the highest xp / hour and compensate for when there is a party member with illegitimate tools/equipment him/herself. This a team atmosphere. Yes, you're forced to team with strangers. So why not make the most of it? I don't see a reason why its ok for someone to come to this kind of situation without everything they can potentially have AND when it proves those things can make or break a situation. The idea that not having said tools/equipment just because of some inconveniences in obtaining them, I mean no offense to the world, is just an excuse, to me. But, eh, ppl play the game the way they want regardless and then someone else has to pick up the slack. That's called bringing your B-game. Do ppl get by in life w/playing a B-game. Of course. I just abhor B-game. lol

I leveled summoner to 75 without Diabolos. Why? He didn't exist yet. The Diabolos pact was released after I was already a 75 summoner. Does that mean I was gimp and didn't even know it? Should everybody put raising summoner on hold until they're SURE that SE has released all the avatars they're ever going to release? Lots of rumors lately about Phoenix and Odin, you know.

No, that was never in question. The idea should not be brought up. But to answer your question, no absolutely not. That does not factor into "this" conversation. I mean, to think otherwise is silly. But again, that was not in question.

As for the vermillion cloak argument... Yeah, I agree, it is a piece of equipment and not a spell or ability. But equipment is important to. Take that hypothetical warrior as an example. WARs automatically get all their non-meritable JAs as their level increases. They don't have spells. Their job is to buy decent equipment. I'm not saying they HAVE to have the A#1, top-of-the line stuff. But they should put effort and thought into their gear. There's plenty of equipment that does +acc and +atk without costing an arm and a leg, and they should save up for some of the nicer pieces when it's reasonable for them to do so. I think most people would agree.

Well on this line of thinking, if equipment is important to bring and keep top of the line, why wouldn't BPs be important. I think SMN's should work on getting all the avatars, especially if the avatar proves useful. I just guess ppl have a different opinion on how useful Fenrir and Diabolos are. I just have been in situations where, when a SMN had them, it recovered a partys xp / hour situation. But, that's my logic. Not everyone wants the most out of their xp / hour. I just hate to waste my time in parties.

So why, then, does the summoner have an expectation to get the A#1, top of the line spell list, even when most people are in agreement that Diabolos isn't entirely necessary? To me, that's akin to telling a WAR that they *have* to have a haubergeon. Most WARs choose to get one ANYWAY, but I've PTed with a few who use that level 55 body piece (sorry I have no idea what it's called) and do reasonably well. I'm not talking about endgame WARs, mind you, but ones in the 60's.

Ok, so you're making the correltion of the effectiveness of Haubergeon vs things like E.Howl and Phalanxga. You cannot do such. Haubergeon does not immediately affect 6 people. It affects one. That's immediately apparent. Haubergeon can't make five other ppl suddenly hit better. It will one. That's not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is: Fenrir and Diabolos abilites can increase party effectiveness. IMO, its significant. IMOPO, it is not significant. I've seen too many situations where a SMN not having Fenrir made the party gimp. That's the logic I'm pulling from. Are there a myriad of multiple situations where a SMN not having Fenrir is not gimp? Yes of course. Is there an excuse for a SMN not having Fenrir "because its HL and I don't want to be HL first before I get it?" No, I don't feel so. While I appreciate your idea, there's simply no basis for comparison on that logic.

As far as spells go... Do you feel that a BRD, in order to be effective, needs to have Scop's Operetta, Fowl Aubade, Goblin Gavotte, Gold Capriccio, and Shining Fantasia? Have you EVER seen a BRD cast one of those songs? Most BRDs have them, just because they're relatively inexpensive, but would you be angry if you were in a PT with a BRD that DIDN'T? Does a RDM need to have all of the self-target bar- spells, and if they're missing some, would you feel that they have no right to be PTing? Do BLUs need to get *every* *single* *one* of their spells to PT, even though a lot of them require more effort to obtain than the spell is even worth? A lot of BLUs go out at 75 and pick up all the spells they missed in the 50's and 60's now that their soloing abilities are up for it. Were they gimp?

See again, this is where we get into the perception of "is Fenrir and Diabolos THAT effective?" I think they are. Some ppl don't and think they're trophies. I say bollocks to those individuals, and I've stated my reasons.

Otherwise, I see what you are trying to say, but again, this doesn't work either. The effectiveness of a buff that prevents silence vs a buff that increases accuracy is not on the same level.

I'll go further though to say, in Caedarva Mire, I was in a PT a week ago where the bard was using the silence buff to keep an Imps Silencega off the party. It worked pretty effectively in that situation. Had the BRD not had it, sure we could have gotten by..... but we would have been a little more gimper for the wiser.

Further, does a WHM need to have BLM, RDM, SMN, and BRD all leveled as SJs in order to seek a PT? Situationally, all of these SJs can prove useful. I think most WHMs who have only BLM or only SMN leveled do just fine. Should a WAR be required to raise MNK and SAM as potential SJs, even though they're unlikely to ever be called upon to use them?

I'll use your term "situationally." Situationally, YES, you're sub and/or lack-there-of, can be either devastating or blessing to a party and its situation and its XP / HOUR. But, again, we get into gravity and weight of ideas. The gravity between a WAR not having SAM as a SJ is quite less than that of having MNK or NIN. I like you're correlations, but you keep missing the key word and that is gravity. It's not such a big deal if a WAR doesn't have SAM subbed, versus having NIN or MNK. It's not such a big deal if a WHM has BLM only subbed and leveld, and not RDM or BRD. SMN is quite more beneficial to WHM sub IMO, and as long as you have BLM subbed, sure np, you're good to go. I just smiply disagree with what you're saying here about these ideas.

I could go on and on, but really, the point is, there is a difference between a necessary tool to bring to a PT and one that is mostly just for show and "completeness." Is a SMN without Fenrir and Diabolos complete? Nah. Neither is one without all 8 spirits. Should they be told that they're not allowed to play SMN without them? I don't think so.

I don't subscribe to any ideas or notions of "prettyness, cuteness, completeness, and trophyness." I subscrbie to the fact that, I've been in parties where Fenrir and Diabolos made a big difference and I'm sticking to it. I will use the term gimp if you do not have these. But again, I want to stress this important fact: do I work w/these situations? yes. do I outright call ppl gimp because of it? no..... Do I detest someone saying "I don't have Fenrir or Diabolos plz don't call me gimp and let me join your party so I can potentially be as sub-par and second rate and bring my b-game like the rest of the ppl that play ff11 while the ppl that bring their a-game get to carry the slack?" .... what do you think?

[Telera]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

That's cool. I can feel you on this.

However, you're not complaining when people think that you are gimp for not having the avatars. I respect this.

It's the ppl that want their "cake and eat it to" that I dissapprove of. lol

Oh, I agree. And as Shar said, I hope you didn't think I was ranting at you. Cuz as she also said, it's rare to find someone to debate this that doesn't devolve it into 'omgnub!!!!eleventy'. That was just my honest explanation for my path. I find most people can respect that, especially if you're calm and rational about it.

Also, yes, I called myself gimp for lacking Fenny. XD And while no one said it personally to my face, I would have agreed with them had they said so. At least around level 55, or had I continued past 60 without Fenrir.

People who want their cake and eat it too (I love that line, lol), on any job, make a bad reputation for it in general. I know there are exceptions, first time summoner needs time to get Fenrir, but it can be done by 55/60, where I think one really should have it. Other jobs might have some exceptions, too. Back when Erase was super expensive, I never expected it of the WHMs until the later 30s. Especially if that was their first job. Myself, I farmed for it before I dinged 32 and had it ready. But it was only 300k when I bought it, not the half a mil+ some poor WHMs had to pay. I'm sure there are lots more 'exception' abilities, I just have little knowledge of jobs outside of WHM, SMN, WAR, and DRG. But no, I don't think a first job SMN should reasonably be expected to have Fenny until 55 or 60 range. Second job SMN, well... that's a whole other kettle. And Diabolos I know little about, save that he seems to be very situational. And again, I salute those who choose to take another job to 70+ first, that way they can start SMN with at least Fenrir, if not Diabolos, too. It just isn't for everyone.

As for spirits, Light dropped when I got my Mitts, but the THF that a friend had brought to help us said he 'needed' it, so I felt it would be a good way to repay him. My friend told me later, the guy only sold it and I should have taken it irregardless. So I still don't own Light or Dark.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Oh, I agree. And as Shar said, I hope you didn't think I was ranting at you. Cuz as she also said, it's rare to find someone to debate this that doesn't devolve it into 'omgnub!!!!eleventy'. That was just my honest explanation for my path. I find most people can respect that, especially if you're calm and rational about it.

Also, yes, I called myself gimp for lacking Fenny. XD And while no one said it personally to my face, I would have agreed with them had they said so. At least around level 55, or had I continued past 60 without Fenrir.

People who want their cake and eat it too (I love that line, lol), on any job, make a bad reputation for it in general. I know there are exceptions, first time summoner needs time to get Fenrir, but it can be done by 55/60, where I think one really should have it. Other jobs might have some exceptions, too. Back when Erase was super expensive, I never expected it of the WHMs until the later 30s. Especially if that was their first job. Myself, I farmed for it before I dinged 32 and had it ready. But it was only 300k when I bought it, not the half a mil+ some poor WHMs had to pay. I'm sure there are lots more 'exception' abilities, I just have little knowledge of jobs outside of WHM, SMN, WAR, and DRG. But no, I don't think a first job SMN should reasonably be expected to have Fenny until 55 or 60 range. Second job SMN, well... that's a whole other kettle. And Diabolos I know little about, save that he seems to be very situational. And again, I salute those who choose to take another job to 70+ first, that way they can start SMN with at least Fenrir, if not Diabolos, too. It just isn't for everyone.

As for spirits, Light dropped when I got my Mitts, but the THF that a friend had brought to help us said he 'needed' it, so I felt it would be a good way to repay him. My friend told me later, the guy only sold it and I should have taken it irregardless. So I still don't own Light or Dark.

Yes, please, I do not mean any disrespect whatsoever. I really don't like to mention the term gimp either. I'm not into finding faults constantly with others and accenuating them to a flamatory degree. No, no, no.

I just have been in situations w/very arrogant ppl that don't have everything they should when they play this game and then say "don't flame me for not playing my job right, but please, by all means, since you're the whm, make sure you play yours right."

I know its a game. I keep it strictly in that context, and delve not any further outside of that realm. But, I played WHM to 75 levels on a previous character, and it was always -me- that had to bring my a-game while everyone else slacked around. Everyone could bring their gimpy equipment and their one carby summon to party, while I had erase and worked weeks to get my whm up to par.... because, if I didn't cure everyone on time and someone died, then they had a conniption (sp?) It's like, for 75 levels I was -expected- by the general public to not fault in my playstyle because... if I did, I let a cure slip and someone died and lost 2k xp or someone missed a whm because I overcured and got mob aggro and that person missed their ws and wasted their tp....... or if I failed to silena a nin in time so he could recast utsu and either died or lost hate........... I got berated for this by ppl.

Now, while I took none of it to heart.... in the game context, it was pretty demoralizing lol. So I figured, to shut ppl the h-e-doublehockey sticks up, I will just play w/my a-game. So I did.

I guess I'm jaded. I don't know lol.

[Eiyoko]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

(Edit: I'll take this elsewhere)

[Sevv]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

tele you dont have light or dark spirits??? get ur smn butt in game they will be in ur dbox tonight!!! And as for Shins ideas about this im going to have to agree, im sorry but unless your first job is smn im not going to cut you slack. And i stop cutting smns slack at 70 regardless, but then again i dont have smns main heal so your primarly a support class you dont have all your support abilites you can go be a gimped main healer for someone else.