SMN & BLU Discussion

[Rain_Blade]

Hello everyone. This topic of SMN & BLU has been on my mind lately and I'd like to see what you all think about it. Well, I just want to know why summoners really have Blood Pacts and why don't BLUs have any sort of exception pretty similar? SMNs have 1 minute BP timers. Making them use a Rage spell every 1 minute or a Ward spell every 1 minute or using one after the other quickly. Although, BLU is powerful and Summoner is powerful, but BLUs can freely cast and most times you will not see a BLU use quick combinations like "Flying Hip Press" and then follow it up with "Maelstrom" in a party becomes it consumes mp.

Now I was thinking does SE think Summoners will not be careful with their mp use if we didn't have BPs? Example: If I used Garuda, I wouldn't use Whispering Wind, then Hastega, and then Aero IV (if BPs did not exist) because that's mp consuming. On top of that, some usually don't melee at all becomes it consumes mp.

So what do you all think about this?

Note: I don't intend to argue/flame or make this into an argument. I just want to hear you all's thoughts and opinions and make it to a discussion. I'm just curious about the topic. Plus, I'm not trying to make it sound like summoners are the only job that goes through "things" that players may not like. I know others jobs may have some disliking as well.

[Malacite]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

It's my opinion that SE ****ed up SMN from day one. BP's should all have their own separate timers as far as I'm concerned, and avatars on the whole are generally too weak. Example: At around 15/16, the 6 Celestial Avatars learn tier 2 nukes, which actually do less damage than a BLM's tier 1 nukes. What the hell is that? These are supposed to be elemental gods.... SE has forever shattered the images of once classic FF Icons, at least for me.


As for BLU, it's pretty well implemented. A few more blue magic points would be nice though. A lot of people are claiming it's overpowered, but that only seems to be the case in ballista, which hardly anyone even does these days. At least that's how it is on Seraph (You'll be very hard pressed to find NA players doing it. Lately it's mostly the Japanese who still play Ballista. Brenner is dead completely.)

[Shinoe]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

It's my opinion that SE ****ed up SMN from day one. BP's should all have their own separate timers as far as I'm concerned, and avatars on the whole are generally too weak. Example: At around 15/16, the 6 Celestial Avatars learn tier 2 nukes, which actually do less damage than a BLM's tier 1 nukes. What the hell is that? These are supposed to be elemental gods.... SE has forever shattered the images of once classic FF Icons, at least for me.


As for BLU, it's pretty well implemented. A few more blue magic points would be nice though. A lot of people are claiming it's overpowered, but that only seems to be the case in ballista, which hardly anyone even does these days. At least that's how it is on Seraph (You'll be very hard pressed to find NA players doing it. Lately it's mostly the Japanese who still play Ballista. Brenner is dead completely.)

Actually, Avatars learn tier 2 nukes at level 10. And i never once saw them do less damage than the tier 1 BLM nukes, as a hume summoner. Mine always did more, up until the early 30's, but it picks back up at about 36 or so.

As for lowering the timer, etc...Austere/Penance gear does this already. When i hit level 50, i was amazed at what -6 seconds to my BP timers did. I imagine that when i get full AF at 60, i'll still macro in my Austere Hat, Robe, and Gloves in order to drop the BP timer when initially summon the avatar. Dropping the Timer really would make SMN burn mp faster than anything else in the game (in my opinion, we already do, but a BLM or BLU not worried about hate could do the same thing). Say they drop it to 40s...Summon Shiva, Double Slap, unsummon, summon Garuda, Hastega, summon Shiva, Double Slap, summona Titan, Earthen Ward...and i might be able to get another Double Slap and perhaps something else, but after that i'd be out of MP for the rest of the fight...and this isn't counting healing. Most groups i've had lately either chose another DD over a WHM, or had a WHM who was out of a job (i'd end up removing status effects before he would, or the tanks HP would get dangerously low and the whm still hadn't tossed a cure), so i end up main healing and buffing.

I dunno. I personally think the BP Timers are fine.
I don't really think the avatars are weak...i mean...we'd be overpowered then....

[Malacite]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

That's one of the big problems with SMN in this game though...

It's supposed to be the big bad mage class, but now it's a pet job (and more importantly, it's an MMO) so SE has to have some kind of balance...

We burn through our MP way too quickly as it is too.

[Shinoe]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

Yea i see you're point. Before the big patch, it was hit or miss on what damage you did apparently (i wasn't a SMN, and actually was on hiatus then, so i don't know first hand). But i would be happy of they did a bit more damage. Double Slap was doing 300-494 at level 50 when i first got it, on Blazer Beetles in Crawler's Nest (IT). But in Garliage Citadel it was doing only around 100-150 on Chamber Beetles (err, they're the same thing! and both weak to ice), so i didn't understand. Both of these times were on Ice Day as well.

I used to constantly spam Thunderspark because it was so cheap, and landed Paralyze either way. But that got weak in the low 40's. Then i started hitting the MB on Induration/Distortion with either Blizzard II or Water II, or use Tail Whip, at least until i got 50. But after my run in last night, yea i totally aggree that perhaps we should do a bit more damage with our BP's, since it is only once per a minute and the cost is fairly high.

I still want to know....why the hell am i not doing 1k+ to a TWTBW Rabbit in West Ronfuer with Double Slap at level 50....grrrr

[Armando]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

Double Slap is two hits. The second one isn't landing because you're killing them with the first.

[Shinoe]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

Double Slap is two hits. The second one isn't landing because you're killing them with the first.

Well then those rabbits need to suck it up and learn2play
I know it's 2 hits (thus, "double slap"), but the damage only shows up as one hit. Any idea why the damage sucks so bad on mobs weak vs ice when used on ice day? Still havent figure'd that out yet.

[Malacite]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

Actually the reason is because SE nerfed avatar melee years ago. You can find it in the developer's room under update history.

What SE did was they capped avatar damage against lower level enemies. It used to be that the higher the lv of the SMN, the more dmg your avatars did to lower level enmies, the same as any player would. This hasn't been the case ever since that update. I can't understand for the life of me why SE did this. If they hadn't, who knows? SMN could actually become a powerhouse in TP burns if avatar damage wasn't capped/ scaled back as much as it is now.

I still think BP's are too weak. Yes, the lv 70 BPs are good, but why should any job have to wait until 70+ to become a respectable DD? Hell, the 1 minute timer and high MP cost make spamming these attacks very prohibitive.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

Actually the reason is because SE nerfed avatar melee years ago. You can find it in the developer's room under update history.

I've never heard of this. Can you point out which update it is, and post a link? (Otherwise, I'm inclined to believe you made it up... >_> )

[Shinoe]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

Actually the reason is because SE nerfed avatar melee years ago. You can find it in the developer's room under update history.

I'm not so sure...i've been playing from day 1 here in japan, except for my year long hiatus that i took in 2005-2006, and i've never heard of that. the only SMN updates that i remember seeing were the ones that increased avatar accuracy, and then the one that split the bp timers.

I don't ever remember them tossing the "nerf bat" at anything related to Summoner. People said that SMN should be a bit stronger (accuracy, etc), which was done in that last big update, but still isn't what some consider "good enough". On a Magic Burst, i usually burst the same, if not a little bit more, damage as the BLM's in the group (this is at level 50)...but mine is a 1 minute timer, whereas theirs is a timer of a couple of seconds. Party buffs could be construed as an even exchange, except for the fact that BP:W is a 1 minute timer, and in an exp, *nothing* is going to last a full minute (with maybe the exception of Frost Armor, Lightning Shield, Carbuncle's Ruby).

But yea. I'd love it if they actually showed us the damage each individual hit does it.

Anyone on this thread have Rush at 70? I've been curious about that.

[Sabaron]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

I would like Avatar Melee Vs. VT/IT to be worth the MP cost of keeping the avatar out with consideration taken for Blood Pact Damage. Something on par with say a Red Mage or Paladin's Damage output (somewhere within that range) or maybe just a bit under to compensate for SMN's own Staff skill and considering it's upper level godliness.. Probably just a very small boost... 15% might be good, but I haven't watched a lot of Avatar Melee damage on parse recently. This 15% as a DPS rate versus say a VT. Would you keep avatar out for 15% more damage or would it still be "Back in your ball Pikachu?" I think this damage should be En- spell like (as an Additional Effect of pure Elemental damage).

[Shinoe]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

indeed.
i've seen my avatars deal damage on par with or above some of the melee damage in certain instances, but for the most part it's usually under normal dd damage. But considering our BP's that we have coupled with damage over time, i say we deal a decent amount of damage. That is, if you're not healing and being yelled at for not keeping hastega and earthen ward and blink up on all members.

I seriously don't understand it when the tank says "i need hastega on at all times (no whm)", when stoneskin was doing better for the mages (damned fool coulnd't keep the aggro in check...stupid ninja ). More damage capabilities would prove that we're worth keeping as DD pre 70, but have the mp available for back up healing (like a RDM) and party buffs along with our damage.

[Malacite]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

Okay I found it. Strange, I vividly remember them wording it differently on the website than what's written in the developer's room...

What it says is "The damage from BP's will not increase as much when fighting enemies considerably weaker than the Summoner. The damage ratio when fighting stronger enemies has not bee adjusted." ~ Dec 9, 2004

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

I still don't see how "SMN could actually become a powerhouse in TP burns" without that nerf to physical BP.

It's my understanding that even in meripo parties, folks are still fighting T-VT monsters, and not "enemies considerably weaker than the summoner".

p.s. Found a link: Dec. 9th, 2004 Update.

[Gobo]

Re: SMN & BLU Discussion

I think the main difference between how SMN and BLU function is the method of attack/buff and how the game is programed.

All Rage BPs give the target 0TP. BLU spells give 10TP PER HIT. So if you get all 5 hits of Disseverment to connect, you just fed a mob 1/2 a WS. So if you completely undid the BP timer system and let every BP be on its own timer, not only could a SMN deal 4000-10,000 damage to a mob, but there would be no consequence of doing it, other than the SMN running out of MP. Letting a BLU spam spells until they go OOM, while doing 4000-8000ish points of damage (depending on /SJ, spells, method of attack) will feed the mob plenty of TP to unleash upon your group. So SMNs aren't allowed to spam BPs because it would more or less be game breaking and BLUs don't spam spells because it will get them/party/alliance killed from overfeeding the mob TP (and they also have the smallest MP pool of the 5 true "mage" classes in the game).