Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

[Daryn2889]

I have always wanted to be a summoner or a black mage ever since i got this game (like 2 years ago). Currently, my summoner is level 28 and I did the level 20 solo battles (Only one left is Leviathan, but I didn't try to fight him yet). I keep hearing people say that the level 20 battles aren't even worth it, except for bragging rights, and you won't get party invites without Fenrir at higher levels, so i stopped. I'd like to go on, but after hearing all this, I don't know if it's much worth it anymore until I can get a higher level job and get Fenrir. Any advice or anything about what I should do?

[Icemage]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

Choice 1: Ignore the detractors and go without Diabolos or Fenrir.

Both Diabolos and Fenrir are undeniably powerful, and you're missing out on a good chunk of useful abilities without them, but if you insist on levelling without them... well, no one else is paying your monthly fees.

Choice 2: Level another job to 75, get Diabolos and Fenrir, then come back to Summoner.

If you're really worried about being the best possible at Summoner, this is the path to take. You're not useless without these two summons, but definitely less flexible.

---

I find it amusing that, after adding the level 20 mini-fork battles (which allowed people to get access to the basic avatars in a much simpler fashion), Square-Enix then turned around and added two avatars that have even higher requirements than the old terrestrial avatars did.

Ancient history: Summoners had to go through a lot of pain on another job to get avatars. New summoners complained about the requirements being too high; veteran players replied saying that SMN was an advanced job and had similarly advanced requirements.

Old history, post-mini-forks: Old summoners complained that all their hard work to get the avatars was negated, new summoners were happy since they could get "all" the avatars without raising another job to 75.

Now, post Fenrir/Diabolos: Back to square one, Summoners now need to go through a lot of pain on another job to acquire all their avatars. New summoners are back to complaining that the requirements are too high, and veteran players are again replying that SMN is an advanced job with advanced requirements.

Ironic, isn't it?


Icemage

[Hearshot]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

i was a 55smn taru who only did forks back when fenrir came out. I got depressed with it and started a new char.

Now i've tanked fenrir 4 times and i'm about ready to get diabolos. When i lvl smn this time, i think i'll enjoy it much more. But now i'm the type of person that merits weapons before i start the job.

[Rain_Blade]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

A lot of people complain about summoner so ignore that. Just make sure you cap your smn skill at every level, because when SE has the update ready for smn, they are gonna make smn skill more important.

Also, about what Icemage said, you don't necessarily have to get to level 75 to get Diabolos and Fenrir. You can get Fenrir at level 65 and Diabolos at level 70. Just saying...

[Gentoo]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

I keep hearing people say that the level 20 battles aren't even worth it, except for bragging rights

When it comes right down to it they're right.

It seems more often than not, someone gets Summoner unlocked and has a bunch of their level seventy'ish friends get their avatars for them. In and of itself, this doesn't necessarily detract from their ability to be an effective summoner.

For me, it's analagous to standing around someones car/house/whatever and admiring the custom work. I'm far more impressed when someone can tell me all about how they built their project using their own hands versus someone that says "Yeah, I hired this mechanic|contractor and paid $<amount of money>. Didn't even have to scrape a knuckle."

...and you won't get party invites without Fenrir at higher levels

Well, I dare say that you won't ever get a party invite, but after awhile people are going to expect that you'll have it. White Mages are expected to have Erase, Cure V, and and the highest tier Protectra/Shellra. Red Mages are expected to have Refresh and Dispel. Black Mages expected to have Escape and Warp II (and... well... honestly, every possible spell). Ninja's are expected to have Utsusemi Ichi and Ni.
Summoners are eventually expected to have Fenrir (and now Diabolos).

So yeah, eventually it'll become a detractor that you don't have Fenrir and/or Diablos. However, there is certainly no reason to stop at 28. Put the avatars that you do have in your search comment when you're seeking parties. As Icemage eloquently put it; "You're not useless without these two summons..." You still have avatars that can buff, debuff, participate in skill chains, and magic burst. You still have a big MP pool that is usefull for being a back-up mage when you're Avatar isn't out.

Now, post Fenrir/Diabolos: Back to square one, Summoners now need to go through a lot of pain on another job to acquire all their avatars. New summoners are back to complaining that the requirements are too high, and veteran players are again replying that SMN is an advanced job with advanced requirements.
Ironic, isn't it?

Ironic in that SE re-created the problem they solved earlier.

Bard, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Beastmaster, Dark Knight, Dragoon, nor Samurai, have any implied need to have another job at 75. Why Summoner?

I thought the level 20 Summoner battles were an elegant solution. They're difficult, but not impossible. Beating them is an accomplishment, and to some, a rite of passage. The mini-battles seem to fill the need for advanced jobs requiring advanced requirements. It seems odd that SE would break a solution that worked.

[Guren]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

Ok I have currently 3 level 75 SMN friends. One said that the mini avatars were just as strong as his primes. He said that the minis are the same as primes exept that are ment for people who dont have a high enough character to kill the primes yet but are just as strong.

I have always thought the primes are stronger then the minis so i wasn't sure if he was just wrong or not so I asked my other two friends. They both agreed the mini avatars are infact as strong as the primes when i summoner uses them. Yes the primes are stronger when you fight them but when the summoner itself uses them they are the same.

The truth remains that the primes and minis are the same in power and such and every possible way. Please refrain from believing anyone who tells you other wise.

Have fun being a summoner

[Raydeus]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

In my opinion SMN, RNG and NIN are what you can really consider as "Advanced jobs", and as such it's always a good idea to have another job to lvl 60+ before atempting to level them.

This is because both RNG and NIN requiere larger amount of gil to level up, which becomes much easier to obtain if you already have a high level job, same with Fenrir and Diabolos for SMN.

You can keep on leveling SMN without those two avatars, but you'll always have that "I'm supposed to be better than this" feeling if you do so.

[Daryn2889]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

Ok I have currently 3 level 75 SMN friends. One said that the mini avatars were just as strong as his primes. He said that the minis are the same as primes exept that are ment for people who dont have a high enough character to kill the primes yet but are just as strong.

I have always thought the primes are stronger then the minis so i wasn't sure if he was just wrong or not so I asked my other two friends. They both agreed the mini avatars are infact as strong as the primes when i summoner uses them. Yes the primes are stronger when you fight them but when the summoner itself uses them they are the same.

The truth remains that the primes and minis are the same in power and such and every possible way. Please refrain from believing anyone who tells you other wise.

Have fun being a summoner

I get what you mean, but the thing is you have to kill the primes to get the whispers needed for Fenrir, and you can't get whispers from the mini battles. I was proud of what I had accomplished by defeating the level 20 avatars, but now that I look back on it, I see it as a waste of time/money (Those supplies really aren't cheap anymore).

I think I'll pick up another job and wait to fight the primes at level 65+ or something and eventually get Fenrir and Diabolos.

When you really think about it, I guess Summoner really IS one of the more advanced jobs of all the advanced jobs. There is so much preparation to do, that meerly reaching level 30 is not even close to being enough. Carbuncle Mitts, Primes, Fenrir and Diabolos, Spirits. There is just too much to do, so I'm not gonna even stress it right now, and set a new goal for myself =D

[Bahamut UK]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

I was thinking this, if i dont have the Summoner Primes before getting summoner i might have to wait a while, otherwise it might not be atall useful just having carby.

[Rain_Blade]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

When it comes right down to it they're right.

It seems more often than not, someone gets Summoner unlocked and has a bunch of their level seventy'ish friends get their avatars for them. In and of itself, this doesn't necessarily detract from their ability to be an effective summoner.

For me, it's analagous to standing around someones car/house/whatever and admiring the custom work. I'm far more impressed when someone can tell me all about how they built their project using their own hands versus someone that says "Yeah, I hired this mechanic|contractor and paid $<amount of money>. Didn't even have to scrape a knuckle."

Well, I dare say that you won't ever get a party invite, but after awhile people are going to expect that you'll have it. White Mages are expected to have Erase, Cure V, and and the highest tier Protectra/Shellra. Red Mages are expected to have Refresh and Dispel. Black Mages expected to have Escape and Warp II (and... well... honestly, every possible spell). Ninja's are expected to have Utsusemi Ichi and Ni.
Summoners are eventually expected to have Fenrir (and now Diabolos).

So yeah, eventually it'll become a detractor that you don't have Fenrir and/or Diablos. However, there is certainly no reason to stop at 28. Put the avatars that you do have in your search comment when you're seeking parties. As Icemage eloquently put it; "You're not useless without these two summons..." You still have avatars that can buff, debuff, participate in skill chains, and magic burst. You still have a big MP pool that is usefull for being a back-up mage when you're Avatar isn't out.

Ironic in that SE re-created the problem they solved earlier.

Bard, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Beastmaster, Dark Knight, Dragoon, nor Samurai, have any implied need to have another job at 75. Why Summoner?

I thought the level 20 Summoner battles were an elegant solution. They're difficult, but not impossible. Beating them is an accomplishment, and to some, a rite of passage. The mini-battles seem to fill the need for advanced jobs requiring advanced requirements. It seems odd that SE would break a solution that worked.

Well, level 20 battles are worth it in my opinion. A future-summoner could at least try it for their liking. As you do a few more, you'll understand the strategy more.

Every job is unique in it's own way. Summoners could do the level 20 avatar fights or have a level 65+ job (or someone else) to get the avatars. Blue mages's AF is a bit costly, a beastmaster's beast can reduce exp for them, a dragoon's dragon is nothing without the dragon, etc.

[Feenicks]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

The level 20 battles are useful for anyone who wants to level SMN as a subjob, you can get to 37 pretty comfortably without Fenrir or Diabolos.

[Kazuki]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

People won't give a damn about Fenrir until Ecliptic Howl. Diabolos is nice for Phalanx starting at 38(?). However, you can go to 75 without him completely. People mostly expect him for endgame.

20s are worth it for the skill that you will probably gain. People never consider that as part of the reward. If you really can't beat them, and decide to go another route (and I don't mean this towards those with high level jobs already) then that shows a bit of incompetence with the job.

Unless it really bothers you, you can just leech Diabolos and Fenrir though. There isn't much satisfaction in waiting until you can go on another, hgiher level job. It feels more like a waste of time actually, especially when you're leveling a job you don't much care for just to open a path to SMN. Plus, getting those avatars on another job have zero to do with your skill as a SMN.

[Guren]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

yes i understand you need the whispers and such but two of the three level 75 SMN's that are on my friends list that i posted about before got level 70 without fenrir or diabolos. at 70 he got them both. Seeing his favorite avatar is Ifrit and Shiva he just used them a lot and had fun all the time. So just use your favorite avatar and play with it a lot and you will have loads of fun.

[Susurrus]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

You don't need Diabolos and Fenrir, what do you think people did before Fenrir (and more recently, Diabolos) were released? Not use them (duh).

I won't say they aren't useful, though. Matter of fact, in my last party on SMN (level 55-57), I mostly used Fenrir's Ecliptic Howl (Evasion/Accuracy up) on the melees and Diabolos's Dream Shroud (Magic Attack/Magic Defense up) on the mages. I haven't had much use for Diabolos pre-Dream Shroud, but for Fenrir, I have used almost every Blood Pact effectively.

[tazirai]

Re: Kind of afraid to go on with summoner...

I have always wanted to be a summoner or a black mage ever since i got this game (like 2 years ago). Currently, my summoner is level 28 and I did the level 20 solo battles (Only one left is Leviathan, but I didn't try to fight him yet). I keep hearing people say that the level 20 battles aren't even worth it, except for bragging rights, and you won't get party invites without Fenrir at higher levels, so i stopped. I'd like to go on, but after hearing all this, I don't know if it's much worth it anymore until I can get a higher level job and get Fenrir. Any advice or anything about what I should do?

Posts like this make me sad reading them, and I really love the you're gimped without XXX summons. When I levelled Summoner back in 2004 we only had the Rat.
I levelled to 56 without the others as they weren't even in the game yet. No auto refresh or even Clear Mind trait. and when you used Astral you could only do it once.
I WAS GIMPED!!!

Now things have changed, we got those affore mentioned traits, They added AF and the Prime fights, and they were alot of fun to do. Then SE said hey let's make it easier for lower level Summoners to really try their hand at being Summoners. They added the level 20 fights..
I personally have done them simply to see if I could, I look at the level 20 fights as training for would be summoners, as you learn strategy while doing them.

You learn to conserve MP, kiting, Astral Flow techniques, timing, Aggro management, and that money doesnt grow on trees, among other things.
The people that say level 20 fights arent worth it, Ignore em, ESPECIALLY if they are l337 Summoners, or just Elitist.

Your invit rate depends on how well you perform your task, as you join more and more PT's and perform well. Your name will spread, and peole will be willign to invite you wether or not you have some leet, avatar or not. Speaking of myself I still don't have Diabolos, and never get asked if I do, I've done the Diabolos mission fight more than the actual BC for the Summoning Magic. I lost once and havent had the time to do it again, nor really felt like it.

When Fenrir was released I never suffered from lack of invites from people I've teamed with before, because I was good at other things. I did get Fenrir but not until I got to level 70. I saw him as my level 70 birthday present. I still get merit PT's now without Diabolos, and still never get asked to "pop" him out just for looks. I'll get him one day, but i'm really not worried about it.

As for "Endgame" I can't speak on it as I've never reached Endgame yet, I'm still playing the same game from 4 years ago ^^. I don't do HNM, well I did it a few times and found the experience lacking, you may like it. I have fun running missions and BCNM,ENM,ISNM and random pop NM's.

I pretty much never use Fenrir anyway except in dynamis, My favorite avatars are Ifrit and Shiva. I Party alot with Beastmasters and Bluemages during meriting since those jobs like me to finish off the mob after we DoT it. You can do that with the Rat^^. and even skill up in the process heh.

But I understand that the way I play isnt the way you play, SO let me say this keep your chin up, don't let what people say overly influence "YOUR" game.
So take what I and they say with a grain of salt.

/comfort Daryn2889 ( ^-^)_旦～