Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

[Taskmage]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

I have a friend who's in the 40s now as smn/nin. He and I went round and round on the subject and eventually just agreed to disagree. Having grown up as a red mage, I believe in adjusting your playstyle to fit whatever role your party needs you to fill. If your party needs DD, then DD; if they need a puller, pull; if they need a healer, heal. The job is capable of a lot of things so imo the right way to play it is to do all of those things as they are needed. Unfortunatley, there are many more jobs that are capable of being effective DD or pullers than there are that can effectively heal, so more often than not healing is what you will be asked to do.

My friend wanted to play smn to be a DD and nothing else. He subs nin to dual wield daggers and cast elemental ninjitsu, melees with his avatar and skillchains with it because that's a "cool" trick. Try as I might I cannot convince him that Megalith Throw > Shadowstitch for a 40 damage ninjitsu-boosted Fragmentation is neither DD nor cool. So ... that's an extreme example, but my point is that while it is possible to play and level the job while letting your view of how the job "should" play limit your capabilities, it is by no mean recommended, nor will it probably garner you much respect from your fellow players.

[Maju]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

Se is gonna make adjustments to SMN class along with other jobs to. SMN has come along way from where it started. SE basically wants us to leave our avatars out longer, so they're gonna have to work on perpetuation costs.

One idea is to raise the summoning cost and drastically lower perp cost.and allow our auto refresh trait to work when avatars are out. as it stands when avatars are out autorefresh only works when using astral flow.

I think a good idea would be to have summons cost a very high ammount of MP to summon, but then they would stay out for free for 30 minutes or so. BPs would of course cost MP as well.

At least that would make SMN seem like a fun job to me. Right now it seems to me like a very annoying one to play.

[tdh]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a

I agree with Taskmage on this (Shock huh?) but at the same time I see your side of the fence.

Friend in my LS has SMN75, along with others. He leveled WHM to Lv.67 prior to him taking up SMN. Then switches to SMN and spends 85% or more of his career being a WHM. Now he was an excellent WHM before he retired it, but he wanted to be able to do DD and help back up heal. He and I staticed from Lv.67 to 75, and he enjoyed being able to MB with Carbuncle, but there were other BPs he could have used to do some decent damage but had to reserve his MP for keeping people alive.. We tried to build a party with a NIN so he could heal less, but he really wished he could focus more on DD.

Of course come Lv.70 he had all those new BPs and never got to use them! It wasn't until the new expansion was released that killing Imps with a SMN or two was amazing EXP and he was able to go to town.

Like Taskmage said, ultimately it comes down to what you can do for the party. Main Heal, DD, back up Heal, pull are the things that are going to get you invites. Unless S-E suddenly changes the number of members in the base party, I just don't see SMNs being removed from the viable Main Heal options any time soon.

Side note: Last time I checked the recent census, it said that WHM/BLM was the most popular job combo, yet I can never find a WHM when I need one. The way the census makes it sounds, there should be WHMs seeking for 3 hours with all the DRKs, DRGs, and MNK.

[Gwynn]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a

Regarding the OP:

While I can see your standpoint (I kinda have to, I hear this argument from my friends all the time and am having to argue my standpoint time and time again), I disagree. A job should do whatever it is invited to do. Take Ninjas, for example. NIN were originally meant to be DD/enfeeblers. Now, however, they've become tanks. This is the norm, and there are very few instances in most levels nowadays where you'd invite a Ninja to DD instead of tank. SMNs were originally intended to be a mixture of DD/Buffer/Backup healer, however due to their ability to main heal a party they were forced into the healer role. This is mainly due to the fact that healers are scarce at times, and you can't EXP without one. So really, even if SE does "fix" SMN, whos to say that they'll be able to get out of the healer's role? And whos to say that you'll like SE's "fixes?" No matter what SE does to alter a job, in the end the people that change a job the most are the players themselves. We've taken two jobs (just two examples... there are many other situations where certain jobs can fill obscure roles) and changed them into something they were never originally meant to be. If you want to change the way SMN operates, then go out there and pioneer a new path. In the end, that will probably be quicker than waiting on SE... just look at how long it took them to give a boost to PLD!

[KitaKaze]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

I'll be the asshole and say this: Deal with it.

[tazirai]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

Seriously if you want to play DD as Summoner do what I did, Party with Beastmasters.
You'll learn things about smn that will amaze you ^^.

[Rain_Blade]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

I have a friend who's in the 40s now as smn/nin. He and I went round and round on the subject and eventually just agreed to disagree. Having grown up as a red mage, I believe in adjusting your playstyle to fit whatever role your party needs you to fill. If your party needs DD, then DD; if they need a puller, pull; if they need a healer, heal. The job is capable of a lot of things so imo the right way to play it is to do all of those things as they are needed. Unfortunatley, there are many more jobs that are capable of being effective DD or pullers than there are that can effectively heal, so more often than not healing is what you will be asked to do.

My friend wanted to play smn to be a DD and nothing else. He subs nin to dual wield daggers and cast elemental ninjitsu, melees with his avatar and skillchains with it because that's a "cool" trick. Try as I might I cannot convince him that Megalith Throw > Shadowstitch for a 40 damage ninjitsu-boosted Fragmentation is neither DD nor cool. So ... that's an extreme example, but my point is that while it is possible to play and level the job while letting your view of how the job "should" play limit your capabilities, it is by no mean recommended, nor will it probably garner you much respect from your fellow players.

There's a difference when playing a role as a summoner. Other jobs are asked to be a certain role, but still use their main job abilities. Summoner, however, are not allowed to use their summons when main healing. That's the problem. We mostly get invited as a main healer. That's another problem. Honestly, I don't care what the party wants. I want what's best and fun for me to do. I know that sounds pathetic, but that's the way it is...I, however, can back-up heal IF you have a paladin or ninja as the tank. Otherwise, I'm not the guy to invite. Also, if you can't find a whm around your level, tough luck to you... =] Get a PL. =]

P.S. This message isn't suppose to sound harsh if you think of it that way.

[Taskmage]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

Well I don't feel like writing a lot, but I think all the jobs that are flexible in their roles have the same problem, not just summoner. If I'm recruited as a main healer as rdm, I don't have the mp or the casting time to keep up with enfeebles as well as I would if I was only a backup healer. Only if I'm fortunate enough to get a party that has a nin and a whm do I get to open up a little and contribute some damage on top of my buffs and debuffs. Likewise, the tank/melee jobs are limited in that they can only equip themselves for one task at a time. You won't be a good tank in pure DD gear or a good DD in gear picked purely for defense, and gear swapping only shifts around your weak point at any given moment.

I realize that summoners are doubly limited in that they have mp consumption to worry about and can only use avatar abilities once a minute, but it's just a more pronounced variant of the same situation. As for summoners not being allowed to use their avatars when main healing, I don't believe that. I've never had a party with a summoner main healing or otherwise that wasn't happy to have some combination of Aerial Armor, Earthen Ward, Ecliptic Growl, and Ecliptic Howl up. Maybe you mean you're not allowed to use them as DD, but again that's just a matter of weighing your party's needs. I've had parties where we actually had too many back line jobs and the summoner was used for avatar melee and MBs. It's rare because there are more front line jobs than back lines, but in the event that that's what your party needs, that's what you do for the party.

As for the attitude of not caring what the party wants, pathetic isn't the word I would use, but I would call it a little selfish. Sure you're playing the game for your own enjoyment, but so're the 5 other people who want to party with you, and if you can't come to an accord then none of you are going to get what you want. If there's no food in the house and my wife and I have to go out to eat, but we both want different things and neither of us will go to the place the other wants to then we'll both go hungry.

... and that was less than I had in mind to write.

[Rain_Blade]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

Well I don't feel like writing a lot, but I think all the jobs that are flexible in their roles have the same problem, not just summoner. If I'm recruited as a main healer as rdm, I don't have the mp or the casting time to keep up with enfeebles as well as I would if I was only a backup healer. Only if I'm fortunate enough to get a party that has a nin and a whm do I get to open up a little and contribute some damage on top of my buffs and debuffs. Likewise, the tank/melee jobs are limited in that they can only equip themselves for one task at a time. You won't be a good tank in pure DD gear or a good DD in gear picked purely for defense, and gear swapping only shifts around your weak point at any given moment.

I realize that summoners are doubly limited in that they have mp consumption to worry about and can only use avatar abilities once a minute, but it's just a more pronounced variant of the same situation. As for summoners not being allowed to use their avatars when main healing, I don't believe that. I've never had a party with a summoner main healing or otherwise that wasn't happy to have some combination of Aerial Armor, Earthen Ward, Ecliptic Growl, and Ecliptic Howl up. Maybe you mean you're not allowed to use them as DD, but again that's just a matter of weighing your party's needs. I've had parties where we actually had too many back line jobs and the summoner was used for avatar melee and MBs. It's rare because there are more front line jobs than back lines, but in the event that that's what your party needs, that's what you do for the party.

As for the attitude of not caring what the party wants, pathetic isn't the word I would use, but I would call it a little selfish. Sure you're playing the game for your own enjoyment, but so're the 5 other people who want to party with you, and if you can't come to an accord then none of you are going to get what you want. If there's no food in the house and my wife and I have to go out to eat, but we both want different things and neither of us will go to the place the other wants to then we'll both go hungry.

... and that was less than I had in mind to write.

The part in bold is a bit off-topic and a totally different situation. That's a comparison between -reality and starving- and -fantasy-

Anyway, I just want to say a couple of things. For people using their avatars while main healing, I mean actually having them out to fight while main healing. Having them out only to do a spell, release, and go back to main healing is a different story. Also, other jobs no matter what their role is still get to use their spells/weapon skills/etc. If a summoner is a main healer, we are limited to using the mp costly spells. Continuous equiping for other jobs is different then what a summoner role depends on.

About 5 other people wanting to pt with you, their just gonna have to wait for "something to come up..." This game requires a lot of patience, so whatever happens just happens. If a person disapproves of their role in a party, that should be understood. I surely wouldn't want to assign a party member a role that he isn't comfortable with while the others have fun with what they are doing.

I'm not trying to "prove" that being a summoner has more complaints than any other job. I'm sure there are some things that people try to work out for the other jobs. I'm just mentioning how certain roles for a summoner affect their fun for the job.

[Taskmage]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

I was just drawing an analogy. If there's a party needing a healer and you're needing a party, one of you can compromise in order for you to all get what you want, some experience and a good time, or you can both be rigid and possibly none of you get what you're interested in. It doesn't necessarily have to be the summoner, mind. Maybe the rdm can be talked into healing or the war/nin can backup tank to mitigate a little more damage and give you more leeway for offense.

I'm not trying to accuse you or anything, nor am I saying you should just bow down the the will of the party. I'm just saying I think the job is flexible and should be played that way. Hopefully I'll start leveling summoner soon, so maybe I'll come back later with a more informed perspective.

[Rain_Blade]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

I was just drawing an analogy. If there's a party needing a healer and you're needing a party, one of you can compromise in order for you to all get what you want, some experience and a good time, or you can both be rigid and possibly none of you get what you're interested in. It doesn't necessarily have to be the summoner, mind. Maybe the rdm can be talked into healing or the war/nin can backup tank to mitigate a little more damage and give you more leeway for offense.

I'm not trying to accuse you or anything, nor am I saying you should just bow down the the will of the party. I'm just saying I think the job is flexible and should be played that way. Hopefully I'll start leveling summoner soon, so maybe I'll come back later with a more informed perspective.

I know. Not trying to argue either.

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

Seriously if you want to play DD as Summoner do what I did, Party with Beastmasters.
You'll learn things about smn that will amaze you ^^.

I agree with this 100% and encourage it because this is what i did. Solo for exp and party with beastmasters. If you don't want to be stuck healing, you need to start playing this for a pet job and not posing as a mage. I really don't consider smn a primarily mage job. I think of it as a pet job with mage attributes used as the limiting factor. There is nothing more enjoyable as smn for leveling than grouping with a bst. I see it rarely these days but it was done very commonly a couple of years back.

I also don't think that a summoner without the celestial avatars should be looked down on because when i started playing the job, everyone was getting through the first 30-60 levels of it with no avatars besides carbuncle at all. I used the fire spirit starting in Valkurm as soon as it learned fire. Its not that summoner can't take on other roles, but it has been conditioned into a job that has lost the root of what the job was really based on. Add on top of that, back then nobody ever really figured the job out. Much of the information online was either bogues speculation or the obvious, so i think the community was just too weak starting off as smn is still one of the least popular jobs in the game after all these years.

[tazirai]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

Yap.. When ever I wanted to PT as summoner and felt like making a Party.. The VERY FIRST people I looked for was Beastmasters. Post 35 Beastmasters love a Summoner because when he releases his pet the Avatar can finish off the monster with a Bloodpact.

You can melee and dot with carbuncle and then as the monsters hp gets lower,summon the avatar its weakest to and let rip. Meanwhile the beastmaster has released his pet and you all get full EXP. The Summoner of course gets full but the appreciative BST does also.

All you need to be effective is you and 1-2 Beastmaster.. thats it. You can still support your party with magic.. but the Beastmasters will to.
The summoner or the beastmaster can even SJ rdm post 64 for dispel, which even though capped is almost never resisted.

[Akashimo]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a fix

From my recent lvl grind to get smn capped as a sub from 34 to 37, I'd always had to put in my /seacom for <|main|> <|healing magic|> <|no thanks|>. But I did get lucky by having parties with nins and a rdm or two. Fights were fast enough to keep an avatar out for 2 bp and some mp to spare. Ifrit wrech those beetles good >:D lol. Anyways, I'd doubt i'd lvl smn any further til they do something about the whole water down whm bit. So right now it's just buffs subbed with a MIA Diabolos and Fenrir left to get on my whm, lol. imho i really think SE needs to rework some of the roles these jobs got moved into. Though you know it's a crazy day when you see a thf/war in bibiki tanking for half a fight after a nin got 2 shotted, lol Heh, speaking of dunes blm/whm, when i first took smn through there, smn/blm, our whm died so... carby <|Full attack|> /blm nukes with a blm cure spammage :X
Though.... the pty with bst idea makes me wanna take up smn again lol.

[Vaigrant]

Re: Guys i love being a summoner but i might play as another job till summoner gets a

I have never seen a SMN and BST work together on my server, and I never even heard about it till now. But this is honestly the reason I haven't brought up SMN past Lvl 10{I take them all to ten to test them out see how I like it}. I had alot of fun with Summoning my Avatars and stuff, but just knowing Id be "Reduced" to the play style of a WHM just turned me off and I havent leveled it since.

But the idea of Soloing it to 27?! How does that work out, Id love to hear more on how to do that. I always kinda wanted SMN to be more Soloable than I was given the impression it was since it is to me a "Pet Job" as apposed to a Mage. And PTing with a BST sounds very interesting and Id really love to hear more about how that works out. PM me even with this stuff, as of right now Im still passionately involved in RDM{Just a few more lvls till FULL AF ^_^}, and Id like to try something a little different{Im Also lvling Sam on the side for my Melee Fun} from what Im used to doing.

And when are these fixes supposed to be implimented or have they already been addressed?