Summoner/Red Mage

[Takiri]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

You don't just miss out on 5% MP. You also miss out on a lot of utility via WHM only spells. And Divine Seal too. That's pretty handy every now and then.

bleh. i rather sub /blm for huge mp pool. i rather be able to use more blood pacts and such and just hit hard to kill the mobs faster without the summoner itself gaining the hate. /blm owns the smn job in my opinion.

and the /rdm does lose 5% mp with SOME good whm spells but i rather sub /rdm thats already level 30 then just relevel a mage to level 30. and plus /rdm you can throw in debuffs which can be that debuffs > whm spells in some situation or all situations. thats why i have every job levels to 20-40 exept whm is level 1 and als o dark knight is level 1. i dont care for either job and everyone loves whm as a sub but to me it fails. also i use bst/rdm over /whm

[Kitalrez]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

You're all leaving out a big one, after 70, SMN RDM comes into it's own in another way: You can finally make use of the lvl 50 JSE ring w/o having to worry about Auto-regen removing the effect after a min or two. Also, the RDM sub gives you a little more hp than /WHM, meaning it's less of a death sentence to be wandering around at 75% hp to trigger that latent effect, (unless you're one of the unwashed horde of players who can't seem to remember that undead aggro low hp). I've known several SMN/RDMs on Diabolos who keep venom pots and the like around so they can trigger their rings when out soloing or farming.

We'll gladly lay down 4-5 million for Penance Robes, why not just change your subs around and use a ring no one wants for the same effect with Austere? You still get sneak/invis and cure spells, just don't have statusnas, curagas and divine seal. Most of my parties at 70 are now SMN parties, so my silenas are basically gathering dust ATM while I level a halfway useful sub for this group.

[Goldesper]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

Someone has a sig around here that goes something like this:

Remember its your 15$/month.


Its their 75.

[Hamlet]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

bleh. i rather sub /blm for huge mp pool. i rather be able to use more blood pacts and such and just hit hard to kill the mobs faster without the summoner itself gaining the hate. /blm owns the smn job in my opinion.

and the /rdm does lose 5% mp with SOME good whm spells but i rather sub /rdm thats already level 30 then just relevel a mage to level 30. and plus /rdm you can throw in debuffs which can be that debuffs > whm spells in some situation or all situations. thats why i have every job levels to 20-40 exept whm is level 1 and als o dark knight is level 1. i dont care for either job and everyone loves whm as a sub but to me it fails. also i use bst/rdm over /whm

What lvl is your smn? You're going to be in trouble if you're invited as main healer and the mob does any kind of status effect on the tank or AOE.

People don't invite smns to deal damage pre lvl 70 because they aren't good at it yet. They do, however, have a very large mp pool which is nice for a main healer.

Btw, you won't be able to land debuffs with any kind of accuracy/effect with rdm sub. I'm pretty sure smn has no innate enfeebling skill. Study my chart below.

With smn, it's not about mp or anything. It's about main healing, and /whm is the only sub that allows you to be a complete main healer.

If you fight mobs that Aoe anything status, your fights are going to totally suck if you can't remove it. If it paralyzes the tank, you're pt is going to be in serious trouble. The list goes on and on.

Also, /rdm is a crappy sub for just about every single job in almost every situation. Sometimes, it's ok, and after 70 it gets better.

[Icemage]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

Actually SMN do OK damage once they get Shiva's Double Slap. Can be used to set up a second skillchain with a tank, especially with a RDM on main healing, leaving the SMN on support healing.

With that said, /BLM is a terrible sub for SMN. Conserve MP is useless to SMN since the spells themselves cost so little (it doesn't help with perpetuation costs), Elemental Seal doesn't help your avatars, and you already have more Clear Mind than /BLM gives (doesn't stack).

SMN/RDM is strictly for cases when you need Dispel, and only if you're desperate, since SMN have no native skill in Enfeebling Magic, which makes Dispel very unreliable. This usually isn't an issue in XP parties since RDM, BRD, WHM/RDM, and BLM/RDM can all do a much better job with Dispel/Finale than SMN/RDM can.

/RDM is useful to other jobs, though. BLM/RDM is very strong for a variety of reasons (just great matchup of stats and abilities for BLM). WHM/RDM is useful too (even more so now, with the advent of Corsairs, since the only weakness COR has compared to Bard is the complete lack of debuffing skills).


Icemage

[Tirrock]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

You're all leaving out a big one, after 70, SMN RDM comes into it's own in another way: You can finally make use of the lvl 50 JSE ring w/o having to worry about Auto-regen removing the effect after a min or two. Also, the RDM sub gives you a little more hp than /WHM, meaning it's less of a death sentence to be wandering around at 75% hp to trigger that latent effect, (unless you're one of the unwashed horde of players who can't seem to remember that undead aggro low hp). I've known several SMN/RDMs on Diabolos who keep venom pots and the like around so they can trigger their rings when out soloing or farming.

We'll gladly lay down 4-5 million for Penance Robes, why not just change your subs around and use a ring no one wants for the same effect with Austere? You still get sneak/invis and cure spells, just don't have statusnas, curagas and divine seal. Most of my parties at 70 are now SMN parties, so my silenas are basically gathering dust ATM while I level a halfway useful sub for this group.

I personally use /THF while farming with the JSE ring. Sneak attack + spirit taker with a 4 to 2 perpetuation cost on fenrir means eclipse bite spam. (If I ever get the second item from limbus for SMN AF1+1, it'd be even less perpetuation cost...) It works pretty well against spiders outside of whitegate.

/RDM works too here, of course. Seems fairly useful against things that have AoE attacks and you don't want to waste blood pacts on healing ruby.

bleh. i rather sub /blm for huge mp pool. i rather be able to use more blood pacts and such and just hit hard to kill the mobs faster without the summoner itself gaining the hate. /blm owns the smn job in my opinion.

The thing is...you're not really going to be getting off that many more blood pacts. And your killing speed isn't limited by your MP, it's limited by the one minute blood pact timer. You could have 10,000,000 MP, and you wouldn't be killing much faster in exp than somebody with 1000. What's more important is how fast you regain MP. I'd take a galka with 800MP and +30hMP gear/food over a taru with 1500 MP and +10hMP.

[Takiri]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

What lvl is your smn? You're going to be in trouble if you're invited as main healer and the mob does any kind of status effect on the tank or AOE.

People don't invite smns to deal damage pre lvl 70 because they aren't good at it yet. They do, however, have a very large mp pool which is nice for a main healer.

Btw, you won't be able to land debuffs with any kind of accuracy/effect with rdm sub. I'm pretty sure smn has no innate enfeebling skill. Study my chart below.

With smn, it's not about mp or anything. It's about main healing, and /whm is the only sub that allows you to be a complete main healer.

If you fight mobs that Aoe anything status, your fights are going to totally suck if you can't remove it. If it paralyzes the tank, you're pt is going to be in serious trouble. The list goes on and on.

Also, /rdm is a crappy sub for just about every single job in almost every situation. Sometimes, it's ok, and after 70 it gets better.

i don't care if i get modded for this but... your a complete dumbass. once agian you can't tell people how to play their jobs. there is no "correct" sub for a job. people play how they play. and just so you know my summoner subs BLM not WHM or RDM. so stfu

Flaming is not allowed. Warning points given. If you have a point to make, make it without using insults, please. - Icemage

[Murphie]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

Ok, a few points.

1.) Hamlet isn't a complete dumbass.

2.) All people are doing is suggesting what combos work best. Do you know how they know they work best? Because people have tried other subs and found out what works. SMN/BLM doesn't work.

3.) Your SMN is gimp.

[GilStealingMule]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

don't care if i get modded for this but... your a complete dumbass. once agian you can't tell people how to play their jobs. there is no "correct" sub for a job. people play how they play. and just so you know my summoner subs BLM not WHM or RDM. so stfu

Hey Takiri I just stole a bunch of gil off of you.

And Hamlet says:

"If you want to play a DD smn/blm, feel free. But it's going to be slow-going with invites considering smns don't deal good damage until lvl 70 (unless your smn is lvl 70 already, but I kind of doubt you could even get to 70 with only a /blm sub).

/blm does enhance the DD of smn, but the DD of smn is really bad until 70. /whm enhances (or rather, gives) the healing capacity to smn, and because of the gigantic mp pool that smn has, it makes them really good main healers.

You can play however you want but when people type in /sea all lvl <70 smn, they aren't looking for a damage dealer."

[Hamlet]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

I've got an idea. Let's start a party.

You can come as smn/blm, I'll sub ninja (just for dual wielding swords), we'll get a war/whm tank etc etc etc.

It might be fun for the first fight or two, but it'll get old fast.

I don't melee in parties. Is it because I don't want to? Nah, I'd love to do that. But there's no way to do it (and believe me, rdms have been trying since the game came out) after a certain lvl and still be effective at your job.

Giving up something you want to do for the benefit of the party (and by proxy, yourself, because better party xp = better xp for you) is something all rdms learn eventually. The same goes for smn, and that's why I asked your lvl (not to say, "Wtf do you know, noob?"), because you will learn it soon enough.

Most smns didn't pick smn to main heal. They picked it to kick ass with big scary avatars. And most rdms didn't pick rdm to refresh whore, either. But, in the end, most give in and do what works best for the party, and usually end up enjoying it. Hey, at least Smn has a goal to work towards. You will really be a great DD at 70+. Meanwhile, rdm is still doing the same damn thing in parties (although soloing at 75 is pretty fun).

[Tirrock]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hamlet again.

Sadness.

Anyway, I agree with what Hamlet said. I also think calling him a dumbass was uncalled for, especially since he was telling the truth. I suppose it's something you'll have to find out for yourself though.

[Takiri]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

slow invites? then why in 5 weeks i got level 57? hmm? because when they have healers and a tank what do they need? Damage Dealers!!!! and smn/blm can out damage many jobs. i got invites as much as any other jobs.

lol owned. and for murphie you said im
"gimped" you realize that term has no effect because the fact still remains i get fast invites, do good damage, high mp, and can spam blood pacts and lastly my sub isnt underr leveled.

lol owned twice in same post

[Murphie]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

Oh, clearly. Yes, you've totally owned me. Totally. Because getting to 57 as a SMN/BLM totally means that you are totally more useful than a SMN/WHM, which is exactly what everyone else is trying to point out. Oh, yes. I feel such shame.

Just because you are getting invites doesn't make you not gimp.

/BLM doesn't give you much of anything save a bit of extra damage. That's pretty useless in the long run. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you.

[Gwynn]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

i don't care if i get modded for this but... your a complete dumbass. once agian you can't tell people how to play their jobs. there is no "correct" sub for a job. people play how they play. and just so you know my summoner subs BLM not WHM or RDM. so stfu

*Points to Halvung.*

Hey pal, you're lost. Trolls go over there.

Just fyi: Hamlet speaks the truth. He wasn't being disrespectful, he was just stating a fact of the game.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Summoner/Red Mage

Well, I agree with Hamlet as a matter of principal, cause in general, yes he is right. And calling him names was uncalled for. STILL... Hamlet, Murphie especially...

I play SMN/BLM a lot. Like I mentioned before I have yet to main heal as SMN. In most cases, I have yet to even backup heal. Granted, I am very patient with SMN because it is a job I only level when I really want to - as opposed whm which I will level because I have other goals in mind.

The end result is that I can be selective. Have a RDM/whm and a WHM/blm in the party? Well, I hate to break it to you but /whm doesn't bring anything to the table. There are already two people who are geared to cure and remove status.

While arguably a SMN "should" be replaced with better DD at that point, /BLM does bring something to the table. And that Elemental Spells.

Yes, Elemental Spells. No, I didn't say that wrong.

I play SMN with a full +MP set up. That means that I have a shit ton of MP to spare. ESPECIALLY when I am not needed for backup healing. That means that between blood pacts I can spam elemental spells. By spam, I mean literally constalty spam.

They may be resisted and go through MP fairly quick (Especially if I have an avatar out), but the damage adds up extremely fast, doesn't pull hate, allows me to keep up with other DD. Sure my Magic bursts may be piddly, but if I am not using an avatart to MB, I can still crank out semi-moderate MBs on my own skill-chains. ANd of course if I am not SCing, I can double MB with avatar + myself. Its not about being a BLM and doing large ammounts of Damage. Its about doing lots of small damage in quick spurts.

All that said... Is it better than /whm? Nah. Its really only /useful/ if you have a WHM and another /WHM that actually support heals - especially if thier is a RDM for enfeebs. Is it situational? Definitly! How situational? Well, I'd say I have been able to reasonably /blm (meaning not drag the party down) about 1/3 of my XP parties. About another 1/3 I'd say /whm was required "just in case" but never used (I would rather /whm to be on the safe side than go all out DD with /blm), and about 1/3 where no one back up healing would have gotten us dead.

The key to /blm, as I mentioned, isn't large amounts of damage. Its learning to use your MP pool, and when. At the end of Chain #5, when everyone else is going to be low on MP and resting anyhow, crank out that extra damage to make sure you get the kill fast enough.

As for you Takiri... See this post? Its actually a USEFUL and INFORMATIVE post about how /blm can bring something to the table, when, and why. No mud slinging. No name calling. Next time, rather than insulting people who have well established reputations and can generally be considered "Right" in thier opinions for a reason.... you might want to try babeling like me. It does wonders. And - gasp - here's a shocker. Sometimes they listen.

Anyhow.

I'll stop rambling.

EDIT: I would like to point out specificly that 1/2 of my time as SMN/WHM isn't need is still /whm because it what is most likely to be useful for the party. Just becaues /blm works sometimes and I'm patient enfough to form my own parties to make it work doesn't mean I will sacrifice the good of the group. As Hamlet said - the party comes first. Not my own desire to crank out a little more DD.