Avatar Speculation and You

[Sevv]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

beat toau

You guys understood Odin was the good guy in the end right?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

beat toau

You guys understood Odin was the good guy in the end right?

um...

Odin only acts on things that serve his purpose, his purpose is chaos and the destruction of Alexander. He gave the Shadow Lord the Kindred, he was the voice that spoke from the dark magicite, driving Ulirich to kill Ragorimm and instead killing Cornelia. Basically he created the Shadow Lord and sparked the Great War.

Odin, with no Alexander to kill, likes to start wars. Luzaf pleaded with Odin to revive Nashmeira in exchange for his life. Luzaf had no ability to keep his pact when Razfahd killed himself, silencing Alexander, so Odin took his life and revived Nashmeira.

Odin is an enigma and an evil one at that.

[Sevv]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

um...

Odin only acts on things that serve his purpose, his purpose is chaos and the destruction of Alexander. He gave the Shadow Lord the Kindred, he was the voice that spoke from the dark magicite, driving Ulirich to kill Ragorimm and instead killing Cornelia. Basically he created the Shadow Lord and sparked the Great War.
Odin, with no Alexander to kill, likes to start wars. Luzaf pleaded with Odin to revive Nashmeira in exchange for his life. Luzaf had no ability to keep his pact when Razfahd killed himself, silencing Alexander, so Odin took his life and revived Nashmeira.
Odin is an enigma and an evil one at that.

fail...

Would be much better if people would go beat taou so we didn't have to use tags

And alexander was there to kill people so he could arise, there is no real good nor evil, if odin was "evil" he would have completely consumed luzaf in the fight, as well as not given a life. Odin saved your ass if you beat the mission.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Prove your argument otherwise then. No argumentitive non-arguments from you, please. For once, assemble your thoughts into something greater than a NeoGAF 'tard vocabulary.

Here, let me help you

Odin and Alexander cannot act on thier own in Vana'diel without a vessel. Odin did not stay his hand because he was a nice guy, he stayed his hand because Luzaf willed it. Just like Alexander shut down with Razfhad sacrificing himself. With no enemy to strike and no will to destroy Aht'Urghan, Odin was forced to go away by Luzaf. Luzaf didn't want to kill anyone, he was just initially outraged by Nashmeira getting fatally injured by Alexander's spear.

Luzaf is the good guy here. Odin took Luzaf's life in exchange to revive Nashmeira. Better to take Luzaf to Valhalla to serve Odin there than to have an unwilling pawn in the real world.

[Akashimo]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Odin was just an anti-hero I believe. Though more border line evil. Though, if he really was communicating with the Shadow Lord through the Magicite, wouldn't it just be more than "noise" as the terp put it? Wouldn't it just hault the plans of the Zilart and they seek out what could hinder their ultimate goal first?

[Malacite]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

You're forgetting that the Zilart and the Celestial Avatars want the same thing: To restore Paradise and the Mothercrystal.

The Zilart didn't create the Shadow Lord, they simply used him for their own ends (or maybe they knew about Odin >. >)

[Taskmage]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

It sounds to me like Odin and Alexander are like forces of nature with an innate conflict with eachother, each acting according to their own interest with no concept of morality. Sometimes it plays out in ways that align with good and evil, but it's more of a coincidence than a concious choice. Fire isn't evil, but left to its own devices it's more likely to burn your house down than to warm it on a cold night.

This from someone who's on ToAU ... like 4 or something, so salt to taste.

[Sevv]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."
It sounds to me like Odin and Alexander are like forces of nature with an innate conflict with eachother, each acting according to their own interest with no concept of morality. Sometimes it plays out in ways that align with good and evil, but it's more of a coincidence than a concious choice. Fire isn't evil, but left to its own devices it's more likely to burn your house down than to warm it on a cold night.
This from someone who's on ToAU ... like 4 or something, so salt to taste.

To steal a line

Taskmage = win.

This is basically how it really is, Evil and Good between these two are only looked at from where you stand. Dark and Light are not always good and evil.

[Malacite]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Good and Evil are nothing more than opposing points of view anyway, if you want to get into the nitty gritty of it >. >

And I 100% agree with TM. Light and Dark are opposing elements, so naturally Odin and Alex are going to want to off each other with little care for anyone caught between.


I'd like to see a new expansion (or at least a quest) centered around the avatars though, and possibly this new astral gate.


We now know that the avatars need an "avatar" ( Luzaf was more of an avatar than the ones we summon XD avatar was really a poor choice of words by SE given the definition) to manifest themselves in our world.

So how about an expansion based around that? All 8 celestial avatars awakening (Yes, bring Odin and Alex back for round 2 ^^) and us perhaps having to team up with the Celestials to stop whatever shennanigans/conflicts may arise (including the Zilart who would no doubt be all over this)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

I don't really know if Alexander was a force for good, but he's clearly the most self-absorbed of all the celestial avatars. And considering they're all self-absorbed, that's saying something.

"Worship my Greatness
Awe at my Majesty or be judged for thy sins and perish"
.... blah blah blah.

Even still, I didn't see Alexander starting any war, just Razfahd, the guy that built him. Odin, on the other hand, likes to cause trouble everwhere.

Odin = Troublemaker and mostly evil
Alexander = Primadonna and annoying

I liked Alex's distinct lack of characterization in the other games a bit more.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

BTW, important detail from "The Empress Crowned" CS:

Who was left in charge?

What nation was authorized to watch over and study the "astral gate" created by Alexander in the Undersea Ruins?

Yeah, Windurst.

Where Windurst and tarutaru are concerned, expect a future quest related to avatars. Though why the sudden interest on Shantotto's part? She was the Orastery Minister, not the Rhinostery Minister which has been linked to Fenrir, Diabolos, Tuning in and Awakening of the Beast quests.

But then, Odin and Alexander are all about total destruction, which fits Shantotto to a T.

Even if you don't get to earn Odin or Alex - I'm still leaning to Odin - there well be accessories to want, I'd bet. Alexander just screams some kind of PLD gear, which has been lacking in ToA. Odin would lean to critical hit rate gear, I'd think.

[Wiseman40]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Could it be that we are thinking on a too-grand scale for the game? We may not be able to summon Alexander or Odin for the same reasons we know we're not allowed to summon Bahamut. Of course they would have no way of appropriately dumbing-down the power of these summons to an appropriate level.
They could balance it out for us, but make those legendary summons look gimpy in the process (which no one wants).

If we take a look at http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/summon.shtml there is a fairly complete list of things summoned in the series.

It could be that we end up summoning something a little more reasonable.

I wouldn't be adverse to summoning Lich for example. In FFTactics Lich mostly just debuffed. That could be factored into the game easily enough.

SE likes to toy with us, after all. They're watching us speculate about these things with smiles on their faces.

If I had to pick a likely candidate from what I've seen evidence of thus far I would say phoenix. I wouldn't rule anything out at this point though until SE specifically says it can not be summoned.

Personally - I want to summon Yojimbo!

That being said it would be extremely unfair to those who don't buy gil (like myself). Since Yojimbo does damage relative to the amount of gil you give him, they would be rewarding people with massive amounts of gil.
Since I burn for my gil I would be much more hesitant to use that summon.

[Gwynn]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Well, the only avatars in game that we cannot summon yet are Bahamut, Phoenix, Odin, and Alexander. As Lich (unless you count the Skeletons) and Yojimbo are not in the mythology of the game, they won't be summons.

[Malacite]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

They could balance it out for us, but make those legendary summons look gimpy in the process (which no one wants

So basically what SE has done with avatars since the very beginning in FF3...

[Wiseman40]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

So basically what SE has done with avatars since the very beginning in FF3...

Well yes that's true but only to a degree. Although summons have been dulled down in previous games, and in FFXI in order to be usable by players - some summons are obviously more powerful than others. Being that the summoner is currently balanced by the power of the summons which are in game, allowing us to summon something significantly more powerful than what we already have would tip the scales too much.

As for summons like Lich not being part of the mythology of the game, that can always change in an expansion - particularly one in which time is messed with.