Avatar Speculation and You

[Toksyuryel]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Except in San d'Oria's case they want to do it without the whole death thing (which caused the split between them and the Tavnazian cathedral, who believed that only in death may we reach paradise (I may have these backwards but I'm pretty sure this is right)).

[RandomKG3]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

On a marginally related note, I figure this would be the best place/time to post my theory on how SE could make Bahamut a player-summonable avatar without compromising his "special" status.

First, let me say, that every 70+ summoner knows that our two-hour, while amazing at lower levels, becomes utterly useless at end-game. Why? Because our level 70 BP's do more damage, which makes it a complete utter waste of mana except to maybe get rid of perpetuation cost for about 3 minutes or to speed up your Elemental Spirit's casting timer.

So the solution is a multi-part strategy:

1. Make Bahamut either a merit-able avatar, or a level required 70+ or 75+ only avatar. You can obtain him on any job, but can only summon him either by merit, or by meeting a minimum level requirement. Both of these would also serve the dual purpose of making him unavailable for level capped areas.

2. Make him a "special circumstances avatar"(IE Astral Flow Avatar). What this means exactly is that they could make his perpetuation cost so high, that the only way to summon him would be to two-hour immediately after. This has the effect of making him an avatar that you can only summon when your astral flow is up, otherwise the insane perpetuation cost would make him vanish after a few seconds.

3. Make all of his BP's Astral Flow BP's. Essentially this means that even if you somehow manage to counter his crazy perpetuation cost without using Astral Flow, you'll still have to Astral Flow to use any of his BP's (all of which are fairly powerful).

This essentially serves the purpose of making Bahamut a high level meritable astral flow, useable once every 2 hours just like our two-hour. This allows SE to let Bahamut retain his "special" status, and prevents players from whipping out the Wyrmking whenever they want, at any level they want, AND it also gives end-game summoners one really special ability to replace their now useless Astral Flow ability. Anyhow, it's just an idea I came up with while mulling over the whole "Bahamut is special and will never be summonable" thing.

[Akashimo]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Sounds good, but with current mechanics, and player mentallity toward smns(*coughtpburnhealerscough*) It wouldn't(or highly difficult) work unless you possibly comepletely change smns working and image.

[Silent Howler]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

I have found some information regarding Alexander and Odin that doesn't appear to have been mentioned here.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Odin%27s_Chamber

There is no picture for proof, but the name is there. Go and see for yourself.

And under the section for Alexander there is additional information given under the spoiler section. Not sure how new this information is, but no one here has said anything about Alexander being specifically mentioned by name.

The Spoiler Warning Section

In the final cutscene of the latest mission update, Alexander is specifically stated (and called by name) to have once manifested the Alzadaal Ruins (Nyzul Isle Remnants = command unit, Arrapago Remnants = right propulsion unit, Bhaflau Remnants = left suspension unit, Zhayolm Remnants = left propulsion unit, Silver Sea Remnants = right suspension unit). There is also a lost control center (or "brain") and the astral candescences function as hearts for each of the five units. The Gordeus is also revealed to possibly contain blueprints for the ruins. It is also stated that the Empire has built a new iron colossus and 4 new candescences for Alexander to manifest. Limbus cutscenes heavily indicate that this new structure was made from parts of biotechnological weapons.

[Malacite]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Bahamut has traditionally been non-elemental, despite the fact that SE changed the "Flare" spell to a fire element (and well, he's a dragon so some fire magic is expected)

They could very well make him an avatar, but have his abilities scale in power more so than the others as you level.

A low level SMN wouldn't get that much out of his 'pacts since they lack sufficient skill/power or whatever excuse you want while a 75 would rock the house with him.

Another (and IMO better) solution would be to make his Perp cost insane. I'm talking minimum 20/tic by 75, and since he's non-elemental staves won't reduce his cost only other items.


Next up is his Astral Flow, Mega (or I believe they gave him Giga as well) Flare. Keeping with FF Traditional, it would deal massive AoE non-elemental magic damage that completely ignores defense and level penalties.

Actually, that's probably why SE won't make him summonable @. @ because they'd have to give him that kind of power or else they'd tarnish his good rep of being an iconic and bad ass summon.

Getting back on track, here are some abilities I thought of.

Lv 1 - Blood Pact: Rage - Mega Flare: See above

Lv 10 - Blood Pact: Rage - Firaga II - MP: 60

Lv 25 - Blood Pact: Ward - Wyrmal Armor: Grants party members in AoE the effect
of Defense and Magic Defense Boost. - MP: 75

Lv 30 - Blood Pact: Rage - Flare - MP 100

Lv 45 - Blood Pact: Ward - Monarch Roar: Grants Regain to party members in AoE
- MP 150

Lv 60 - Blood Pact: Rage - Firaga II - MP 170

Lv 70 - Blood Pact: Rage - Dragon's Rage: 4-hit attack. Added Effect:
Magic Defense Down - MP 250

Lv 75 - Blood Pact: Rage - Flare II - MP 215



Those are just some ideas I had just now. Basically Bahamut's attacks are all very powerful, but also very high in MP cost. This way SE doesn't have to tone him down while at the same time preventing abuse (at least from a single summoner)



As for Odin Alex and Pheonix, all I have right now are their astral flows. Alexander is a bit trickier, since they gave the AoE light attack to Carbuncle who is traditionally AoE Reflect.


Odin - Zantetsuken: Odin charges into the battlefield and deals instant death to all targets in range. Inneffective against NMs. (Maybe cause plague to them?)

Phoenix - Rebirth Flame: Phoenix deals massive fire damage (Weaker than Ifrit's Inferno though) to all enemies and revives fallen party members to full health (No weakness. Not sure on % of EXP returned, possibly 100% since it's a 2 hour)


Alexander - Okay, I admit I got nothing. They basically stole his move and gave it to carbuncle, so maybe some kind of light based defensive ability?

[Legal Fish]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Lv 1 - Blood Pact: Rage - Mega Flare: See above

Lv 10 - Blood Pact: Rage - Firaga II - MP: 60

Lv 25 - Blood Pact: Ward - Wyrmal Armor: Grants party members in AoE the effect
of Defense and Magic Defense Boost. - MP: 75

Lv 30 - Blood Pact: Rage - Flare - MP 100

Lv 45 - Blood Pact: Ward - Monarch Roar: Grants Regain to party members in AoE
- MP 150

Lv 60 - Blood Pact: Rage - Firaga II - MP 170

Lv 70 - Blood Pact: Rage - Dragon's Rage: 4-hit attack. Added Effect:
Magic Defense Down - MP 250

Lv 75 - Blood Pact: Rage - Flare II - MP 215

Interesting! Bahamut uses none of these! PS. Mega/Giga Flare do not ignore magic defense and are fire damage.

EDIT: haha, oh wow, your ideas for other 2hrs were somehow worst than what you envisioned for Bahamut.



My opinion?

Fix current BPs, add new BPs to current avatars including a Refresh-ga(Ballad I or II if possible), and add JAs that allow SMNs to regain MP lost from using BPs and/or keeping avatars out.

To hell with new avatars, that doesn't fix anything, and SMN needs fixing. What's the point of summoning Alexander, if you are only going to keep him out for ten second to use only 1 BP ever, then continue to whore your MP to cures?

[Malacite]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Do you get off on trashing people? Seriously....

And that's stupid that they're fire damage. Bahamut has never been fire elemental before, why the hell change that now? And they're ideas... I haven't actually fought him myself so I don't know all the attacks he has (I can look at up easily enough) I was just trying to be creative.

And for christ sake play some of the other FF entries, because the other astral flows are exactly what those avatars have always done. Phoenix is fire damage + AoE Life(raise in the newer remakes) and Odin has always been Zantetsuken (except in 7 where he would some times use Gugnir instead for a bit of AoE damage, but who wants that? The wind damage was from FF9 as an added ability of Garnet)


EDIT: Okay I just finished looking over his actual attacks. They brought back Teraflare! that's awesome! I was trying to keep the previous abilities dragon-themed but since he already has pre-set attacks I guess we'll have to go with those.

He has a lot of magic though, and it'd be kinda janky to keep all those powers especially if they're not toned down like Firaga IV and phalanx (which diablos already does)

Ignoring his spells, we have: (from FF Wiki)

# Absolute Terror: AoE Terror, absorbed by Utsusemi

# Trample: AoE damage (~200-500), Knockback and Bind, absorbed by Utsusemi

Sweeping Flail: Large AoE (range 20) damage (~100-300) and Knockback, absorbed by Utsusemi

# Touchdown: AoE wind damage (~300) and Knockback

Tempest Wing: Cone Attack wind(?) damage (~400)

Megaflare: Wide Cone Attack fire damage (~800).

Gigaflare: Wide Cone Attack fire damage (~1200)

Teraflare (~1800 fire damage).

Horrible Roar: Very large AoE (25'?) dispels 4 effects, including food.

Impulsion: AoE ~500 damage plus Petrify, Blind and Knockback.


Most of those are just generic attacks though and DAMN SE for changing the Flare attacks to fire - _ -

[Legal Fish]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Just because they worked like that in previous FFs doesn't mean they should work like that in this one. In terms of "thinking up content", it should always be balance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FF flavor.

Bahamut wasn't built to be an avatar, maybe that's why he would make a terrible one.

[Sevv]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

how about the fact S-E stated bahamut will never be an avatar period. end of story leave bahamut out of it...

[Silent Howler]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

how about the fact S-E stated bahamut will never be an avatar period. end of story leave bahamut out of it...

They didn't really say Bahamut will never be summonable, just they didn't want people too.

Personally though, I don't mind not having Bahamut. I'm pretty much happy, but I would like to see Odin and Alexander available. Odin has ofter been considered the second strongest below Bahamut. And that's good enough for me.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Fix current BPs, add new BPs to current avatars including a Refresh-ga(Ballad I or II if possible), and add JAs that allow SMNs to regain MP lost from using BPs and/or keeping avatars out.

To hell with new avatars, that doesn't fix anything, and SMN needs fixing. What's the point of summoning Alexander, if you are only going to keep him out for ten second to use only 1 BP ever, then continue to whore your MP to cures?

Why is it your ideas for "balance" and fixing things are always broken as hell? If SE actually listened to half of your bullshit, we'd never get hit, never run out of MP and mobs would never gain TP. That's balanced? I think not.

And what else are SMNs supposed to do between summons? No job adjustment in the world is going to change the fact that SMNs have LOADS of MP for that can be used for curing allies.

Odin knows songs, Ninjutsu and all Black and White Magic, at least in his form as the Dark Rider. According to the DATs I've seen, he also comes with the avatar summoning sound effects. I suppose it possible to have him Ballad a PT, but I'd think if I were to summon Odin, it would be to kill some shit, not sing ballads a BRD could do. His Prime version has not been finalized just yet from what I know, but we're very close to finding that out.

And there will be a new avatar added to the game in ToA, like it or not. Really, what else do you think SE has left to add to the expansion once the story is done and we still have months to WotG? Twiddle thier thumbs and tease us with the new jobs?

Nah, plenty of room for a new summon, avatars are central to many of the storyarchs and one of the biggest incomplete stories in the game is the story of Odin and Alexander, which started in CoP 5-3.

FFXI storyarch ends, SMN is added a little while before Zilart
RoZ storyarchs end, Fenrir becomes available to challenge and earn as a summon later.
CoP story ends, months latter we can challenge and obtain Diabolos.

Pattern here? I think so. Its possible SE could though us a curveball and neither Odin and Alexander are the avatars well summon. There have been claims of Bismarck sightings on the boat rides to Aht'Urghan. But given all the DATs and info based on CSes, I'm leaning to Odin as my bet.

What's more is CoP's unfinished "The Last Verse." There has to be a connection between CoP and ToA and given the story, Odin and Alexander are probably major players in it. These two represent the destructive forces of awakened avatars that Carbuncle warned people about.

Regardless of how ToA's story ends, there's still another storyarch to conclude. Odin's actions reach back all the way to the Northlands incident as far as we know, likely further given his relationship to the Kingdom of Ephramad.

[Malacite]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

just because they worked like that in previous FFs doesn't mean they should work like that in this one.J In terms of "thinking up content", it should always be balance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FF flavor.

Bahamut wasn't built to be an avatar, maybe that's why he would make a terrible one.

You don't fundamentally change an iconic character in a long-standing series. We have enough elemental abilities as it is, there was no need to change him like that especially since it weakens him.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

You don't fundamentally change an iconic character in a long-standing series.

Yes, you do. Whenever one likes and sees fit to do so. This is the case many times in FFXI and FF in general.

Why is it your ideas for "balance" and fixing things are always broken as hell? If SE actually listened to half of your bullshit, we'd never get hit, never run out of MP and mobs would never gain TP. That's balanced? I think not.

That's hilarious. Almost as hilarious as WHMs wielding bows. However, I think you would need to provide more evidence on that claim, because I simply don't believe it.

And what else are SMNs supposed to do between summons? No job adjustment in the world is going to change the fact that SMNs have LOADS of MP for that can be used for curing allies.

Ideally, depending on which direction one would take it, SMN would have the option to play a support who can throw out spike damage. This would be very taxing, but still would allow cures to be thrown out. If they could be turned into better support and have a way to pay for their avatars being out/constantly using BPs, then they will be busy enough between summons.

Let's not forget the possibility of boosting Spirits.

And there will be a new avatar added to the game in ToA, like it or not. Really, what else do you think SE has left to add to the expansion once the story is done and we still have months to WotG? Twiddle thier thumbs and tease us with the new jobs?

There is nothing concrete. It's possible, but not certain. Assuming there will be another ToAU update in late October, the update that introduces WotG will be timed normally and be no different than the average update.

The point is another avatar will do nothing for SMN. It will make the little sheep happy for three months, until they get bored of it like they did Diabolos and Fenrir, then begin the ask for another shiny. All the while SMN is still considered crap outside spike DD at some HNM fights and does not fulfill it's potential. That's a nice pattern.

[Malacite]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Yes, you do. Whenever one likes and sees fit to do so. This is the case many times in FFXI and FF in general.

No you don't either. Up until XI Bahamut's always had the basic staples, with a few unique twists here and there:

- Dragon King
- Usually has some large impact on the story (often a good guy but not always)
- Mega Flare (Non-elemental with no defense against it)
- Will lend his aid to those who are worthy.


Aside from that fruity look they gave him in X and the 3 different incarnations in 11, they've never once screwed with him like this. Neither Mega Flare, or the spell Flare have ever dealt fire damage before.

It's always been a non-elemental atomic blast (Flare used to be called NUKE and Mega Flare was formerly Mega-NUKE) that again can not be resisted. You can pile on magic defense, but you could not resist it.


Maybe it's because I'm a longtime fan of the series, but this change pisses me off big, especially if SE ever makes him an avatar (which is unlikely but not entirely out of the question. We got them to partially undo the RNG nerf and upgrade DRG after all)

I honestly don't like the idea of it being fire element. I'm sure it's still a horrendously strong attack, but the fact that we can now Barfira against it seems diminishing. It's always been a WMD. Now it feels like a cherry bomb. It's just so wrong, like SE went and violated him.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Avatar Speculation and You

Bahahahaha, that doesn't change a thing I'm afraid.