Fenrir: must I mooch?

[Coris]

I'm a new player. My highest job level is my 30 white mage, which I used to unlock summoner. My summoner has just reached level 20, and so I naturally began considering the mini-avatar fights. I mentioned this to my linkshell, and they promptly informed me that the mini trials are a waste of time and money, and that I should just get some high level players to do the avatar prime fights for me, especially since I couldn't get invites past 40 without Fenrir.

So I put it to the forum: should I really level my whitemage to 65 so that I can participate in the avatar prime battles and unlock Fenrir? Is it important enought that I should swallow my pride, make friends with a bunch of 75s and have them do the fighting for me? Or can I work my way up to the appropriate level as a summoner, as I had intended, with only the terrestrial avatars?

--incidentally, I did manage to take down titan last night in spite of several mistakes.

[qaitakalnin]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

well i would disagree that the mini fights are a waste of time and money, i look at them as a pride thing, a personal goal of mine really. That being said, if you have high lvl friends that are willing to get you these then go for it, it isnt like you wont pay them back, or help out another up and coming smn. It would only be an issue, at least to me, if you came on and where complaining cause your ls wasnt going to help and that all highlvl people should help you get this, something to that effect anyway. They offered, heck a lot of times those are fun fights, plus they may want something from the fights too, but i, personally, wouldnt consider it mooching if they came to you and offered. But that is just me.

[Murphie]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

Re: The Mini Trials

They are not a waste of time and money. Not everyone has a cadre of high level folks waiting in the wings to escort you to the various Cloisters and kill the Prime Avatars there. For folks who want to be at least relatively self-sufficient, they are an excellent way to get the summons without having to bother anyone else about it.

Re: Fenrir

Unfortunately, yes, the only way to get Fenrir is to beat the Prime Avatars once, and then take the whispers from each right to Windurst in order to get a Moon Bauble and challenge Fenrir. This is not an easy fight, and unfortunately, unless you know a bunch of high level SMN, isn't easy leeched through. Not that it can't be leeched, but it's not really on the same level as the other prime fights.

But once again, not everyone has that kind or resource (an army of 75s) in their pocket, so it's kind of unreasonable of them to expect that of you. If they are so interested in telling you how to do things, then they should be willing to pony up and help you out since they are your LS members.

[ikkleste]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

Well the way it was originally intended was for summoner to be a true advanced job. in that you had to have another job quite high, and then start working on summoner. this proved unpopular, people wanted to do what you do and start as summoner as their first main job, so the trial-sized avatar battles were added too. But before they were added you pretty much had to have another job leveled.

As far as your question goes, personally i'm not sure and don't know enough about it. I'm considering working on summoner one day, and have just unlocked it. I think i'll probably wait until i get RDM high enough to actively participate in the full battles.

[Omniblast]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

Mini trials & Mini fork: Waste of time and gil. Save mini forks for later use such as traveling to various locations via cities as smn. Get to Fei-Yin in less than 2 minutes compared to people that walk and take 20 minutes to get to the bcnm there. Once you do the mini battle you can't get the mini forks back.

Fenrir: Leech is the only solution. You can leech at any level. Get 5 level 75 smn, pay them 100~200k each, and you can get Fenrir with no trouble. 5 level 75 smn can take down Fenrir in less than 10 minutes if all "Spinning Dive" hit.

[Murphie]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

Mini trials & Mini fork: Waste of time and gil. Save mini forks for later use such as traveling to various locations via cities as smn. Get to Fei-Yin in less than 2 minutes compared to people that walk and take 20 minutes to get to the bcnm there. Once you do the mini battle you can't get the mini forks back.

Fenrir: Leech is the only solution. You can leech at any level. Get 5 level 75 smn, pay them 100~200k each, and you can get Fenrir with no trouble. 5 level 75 smn can take down Fenrir in less than 10 minutes if all "Spinning Dive" hit.

Isn't this a bit unreasonable to ask young summoners to do? I mean, yeah, it's an effective strategy, but personally, I'm not sure how comfortable I would feel just leeching my way to a full set of avatars. Much less paying people to allow me to leech.

I guess if you really wanted them without having to do much, that's a good way. I just hate throwing gil at a problem.

[Icemage]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

Isn't this a bit unreasonable to ask young summoners to do? I mean, yeah, it's an effective strategy, but personally, I'm not sure how comfortable I would feel just leeching my way to a full set of avatars. Much less paying people to allow me to leech.

I guess if you really wanted them without having to do much, that's a good way. I just hate throwing gil at a problem.

The only other alternative is to raise another job to level 70+ so you can contribute to a Fenrir fight (well, you can also do it with an army of BLM/NIN, but it's riskier and has the same general impact.

Fenrir is an extremely difficult battle under most circumstances, and there's no other alternative to acquiring the pact for him.


Icemage

[Murphie]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

I'm referring more to his stance on the mini-trials. I'm well aware that Fenrir must be either leeched or undertaken at 70+.

[Telera]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

I intended to do all the mini-battles. Then after a particularly painful wipe at Garuda's hands, a few friends offered to help me get mine to save me gil. And one of them needed Shiva's Claws for his monk. :p So I accepted, and slowly but surely, as they had time we worked on it. However, I flat refuse to do Fenrir until I'm at least somewhat close.

LS leader says he'll take me at 60. I was thinking of waiting until 65 if I possibly could get that high without Fenrir. But I won't be 'mooching' Fenrir until at least 60. And then I intend to at least try to help fight. Astral Flows or BPs. If I die... meh. I don't really care about death unless it delevels me by a big chunck of exp. So to answer if it's reasonably possible to get to a higher level without Fenny: yes.

Only one party ever asked me if I had him and when I said no, they said to just use whatever else I wanted then. This was a party where I got to DD, and they only wanted him for DD anyway, not the buffs. Most other parties I've either been main heal (which is about all you'll get called on to do until 70 or so, sadly. Or at least back up/buff) or when I have used avatars no one even asked or cared. I had expected massive persecution for the lack of the puppy, but no one has said a word yet to my surprise. Though I hear 60+ is when they really start asking for him, hence my LS leader insisting I go with the group when I hit that level.

As my LS leader told me once: If people are offering help, it's not mooching. If you're shouting in Jeuno at level 20 for Avatar Prime battles, that's when it gets kind of sad.

Be happy you have friends who care about your choice of job and want to help you. And if it really does make you feel bad somedays (like it does me) then just return a good turn and help another young summoner when you're stronger someday. Karma. Good Karma all around.

[Murphie]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

As my LS leader told me once: If people are offering help, it's not mooching. If you're shouting in Jeuno at level 20 for Avatar Prime battles, that's when it gets kind of sad.

Oh, absolutely. I have managed to get a couple of avatars myself because my LS was doing Prime Runs and had spare slots open in the party, so they asked me to come along. I had fully intended to do the level 20 mini-trials.

[Omniblast]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

Aelathir, I waited until I was level 75 whm before I advanced further than level 37 on my smn job. Took me several tries with a normal party that didn't work out, finally took a smn party in and won easily. I had all the other terrestrial avatars by then but only after obtaining them with other high levelers.

The reason why I specifically said it's best to accomplish the higher level jobs is for the mini fork traveling. Farming never became easier. Well the travel time to the farm area. Though the only places I would probably want to travel quickly to, would be "The Boyada Tree" and "Quicksand Caves" and "Fei-Yin".

No one said obtaining avatars would be easy. But if you compare obtaining a avatar vs. other items for other jobs, this is extremely easy. Would you expect to get a Opo-opo Crown at level 65? (props to all the bards) All the farming for the items, especially the wyvern one is extremely difficult and dangerous.

But hey, if you want to use the mini-forks, go for it. But if I get to Fei-Yin faster than you, don't complain. You couldn't wait to fight the normal avatar battle.

[Neppy]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

Geez! The minis are NOT a waste of time. I did all the minis simply because i wanted to earn them on my own, not to mention i didnt have the $ to pay ppl to beat the primes for me. I disagree that u cant lvl past 40 without Fenrir, I was a 64 SMN before i got him, you can call me gimped, i really dont give a hoot! Me and a high lvl SMN duo'd the primes, and I had some friends help me get Fenrir, and yes i contributed to the fight. But honestly do what you think is best, wether it be doing the minis or primes to get the avatars. Like I stated before you dont need Fenrir to get past 40, most the time i lvld til my 50's i was a main healer, and once i hit my 50's I solod alot in ifrits cauldron, and even now in the 60's i solo alot in Ul. Range on snolls (Getting better xp/hour then when in parties I might add). Play it like you want to, if someone says it cant be done prove them wrong.

[Murphie]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

No one said obtaining avatars would be easy. But if you compare obtaining a avatar vs. other items for other jobs, this is extremely easy. Would you expect to get a Opo-opo Crown at level 65? (props to all the bards) All the farming for the items, especially the wyvern one is extremely difficult and dangerous.

But hey, if you want to use the mini-forks, go for it. But if I get to Fei-Yin faster than you, don't complain. You couldn't wait to fight the normal avatar battle.

I still think it's unreasonable to assume that a new player who just wants to be a Summoner should have to first level another job up to the appropriate levels to do the prime fights themselves or pay someone else to help them through the fights rather than just unlock the job normally and obtain the avatars at level 20 on their own merit.

It's ok to do something without a high level holding your hand through it.

And while I'll admit that yeah, fast travel would be kind of handy, it's not reason enough to avoid doing the mini-trials if you don't have some other way of easily obtaining the avatars. If I'm going to Fei'Yin, chances are that I'm not going there alone, so I'm going to have to wait for people anyway. FFXI involves a lot of travel time. I'm ok with that.

[Coris]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

Wow, thanks for all the responses.

I guess I will go ahead with the mini-battles. Travel time isn't really an issue for me; like Aelathir says, if I need to go somewhere then I'll most likely be traveling with others that won't have the benefit of a mini-fork. I'm not a big farmer.

I don't have the extra time to level up another job to 60, so I'll hang on with my summoner until I can contribute. I've only just joined this linkshell, and I don't want to start calling in Really Big Favors until I have something to offer in return... especially since I'm going to have to try for Carbuncle Mitts someday.

Anyway, I'm glad to see the different responses, and I hope some of you from Garuda are still around when I'm ready to hunt the moon-dog.

[Sabaron]

Re: Fenrir: must I mooch?

I did all 6 mini battles (see record below). I'm an alchemist, so I brewed my own Hi-Potions and Hi-ethers (I can't justify wasting a dryad root on a 20 mana potion when I can make a 45), but I switched to Mulsum after the first 3 battles b/c I can down 4 of them in the time it takes to drink one Hi-Ether. (Ether is fast, but they don't stack 12). These were my expenses:

Gear:
Baron's Slops: 100,000gil (Keeping it, asset)
Baron's Saio: 270,000gil (Keeping it, asset)
Physical Earrings x 2: 120,000gil (selling back at purchase price)
Mercenery's Pole: 20,000gil (Keeping it, upgrading @ level 23)
Heko Obi +1: 15,000gil (Trading up to a Silver Obi +1 or Magic Belt +1, haven't decided)
Hermit's Wand: 0gil (I farmed 9 of these while looking for a Priest's Robe, but didn't get the robe).
Battle Gloves, Compound Eye Circlet, Light Soleas, Energy Rings, Fortune Egg: already had these, keeping them

Consumables:

Hi-Potion x 12: ~4,000gil ea (ingredients) Made 'em myself
Hi-Potion +1 x 2: ~4,000gil ea Sold one @ 10k, drank one
Hi-Ether x 5: ~4,000gil ea Sold one, drank 4, switched to Mulsum
Mulsum x 24: 77000 gil, only used 12
Boiled Crab x 4: 1,000 gil ea (didn't start using them until later)
Pamamas Au Lait x 4: 4,000 gil ea (didn't start until later)
Yagudo Drink x 12: 4,000gil ea (drank 9, 3 left)

Total Consumables: 140,000gil

I would say that 140,000 in expenses is well worth 6 of arguably the best "Spell Scrolls" in the game. That's only 23,333gil per Avatar; Spirit scrolls cost more than that on Asura (Light/Dark Spirit now at 1,000,000gil ea).

I would say that it is definitely NOT a waste of money. Time is arguable, but leeching off of 75's isn't for everyone. Obviously, this isn't for people who are dirt poor, but you just have to do a little work to finance it just as with anything else in FFXI.

...Once you do the mini battle you can't get the mini forks back...

As for the mini forks, they must've changed something because I still have all of mine (yes, I did return to the quest guy after). I can't remember where I read it, but other people use these frequently for warping to the cloisters after they've done the mini-battles.

[EDIT: Add]

It was also fun, and after all, that IS the point of playing a game isn't it? I find that I don't get as much enjoyment out of playing when people do things for me, even though I'll probably end up leeching Fenrir if I can find a party to do it for me.