Stop telling SMN's what to do

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Well, see the problem with that is this; sure, SMN's can wreak real havoc with their abilities. However, their only ONCE a minute. Factoring in the initial summon and cast time, you got like 40-45 seconds left before you can do that again. In that 45 seconds, SMN's can be alot more useful by doing some healing. Sure, it sucks. But until SE fixes SMN's, its the only real thing SMN's can do.

If Blood Pacts were reduced to 30 seconds, I can REALLY see SMN's entering a DD role earlier on. SMN/BLM would be monstrous. Hopefully it happens >_>.

[Jei]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

thf "link!!!1111 killz lolz"
smn/blm starts casting warp.

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

How many times do i need to reiterate that if a summoner has capped skill and knows the job very well, there are other tools besides the bloodpacts that have generally a lower timer from 50secs down to 18. summoner's sub really doesn't add anything to the job it can't do by itself besides job abilities and a few spells.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

How many times do i need to reiterate that if a summoner has capped skill and knows the job very well, there are other tools besides the bloodpacts that have generally a lower timer from 50secs down to 18. summoner's sub really doesn't add anything to the job it can't do by itself besides job abilities and a few spells.

All you really mentioned was the use of Spirits in between Avatars, which unless your 75 and have merits and equipment for perpetuation, the MP/tick is abit harsh for some of them. That and even with summoning skill capped, although the good spells pop up more often, spirits have the disadvantage to being completely random and unreliable in a pinch situation. And even if they were controllable, people would probably ask you to pull out Light Spirit anyway for healing <_<.

[tazirai]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Well, see the problem with that is this; sure, SMN's can wreak real havoc with their abilities. However, their only ONCE a minute. Factoring in the initial summon and cast time, you got like 40-45 seconds left before you can do that again. In that 45 seconds, SMN's can be alot more useful by doing some healing. Sure, it sucks. But until SE fixes SMN's, its the only real thing SMN's can do.
If Blood Pacts were reduced to 30 seconds, I can REALLY see SMN's entering a DD role earlier on. SMN/BLM would be monstrous. Hopefully it happens >_>.

100% Wrong.. but it seems set in your mind.. so there's most likely nothing I can say that will change your mind.

[Icemage]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

SMNs "can" do more than heal in between blood pacts. It's just a question of how you choose to spend your time and MP.

For XP parties, whether you're in an offensive (SC/MB) or defensive (Aerial Armor, Earthen Ward) posture as far as Blood Pacts, the remaining time in between can be spent doing:

(a) Resting. Regain MP so you can do more Bloodpacts later without losing too much MP.

(b) Do something not MP-related. I've seen a few Summoners who've chosen to forgo using elemental staves completely in XP parties and use a high damage Staff to supplement their contribution. It's not too bad an option, since the higher delay staves actually do reasonably good damage per hit, and don't give inordinate amounts of TP in the process. I'm not convinced that it's that significant a contribution, but you really don't lose that much more MP from not using the staff anyway (and if you cared about MP totals you'd be using staves and resting, as in case A above).

Theoretically you could also /BRD and sing a song or two. Not really sure why you'd need to, but could be useful in some situations like an XP party with NIN DD DD RDM COR SMN. It leaves the RDM in a bad spot being the only healer, though Ballad I with the Refresh roll (and SMN bonus!) helps a lot for that. Unfortunately, you don't run into parties like this very often.

(c) Spending MP on avatars. Summon Carbuncle and have him melee at a minimal MP cost works, though the process for doing so is pretty annoying since you can't rest while this is happening and you'll have to Dismiss Carby and start anew once your timer comes back up. This is a viable tactic when you get a link, as long as you warn any RDM/BLM/BRD/other sleepers in the party that you're doing so.

(d) Spending MP on Spirits. Huge MP-sinks. I'm really not sure why summoned spirits cost so much to maintain. It wouldn't kill S-E to reduce these to something reasonable - you're already sacrificing the ability to rest, there's no reason for them to cost more to perpetuate than a Prime Avatar. Sure, sometimes you get lucky and your Ice Spirit will whip out Blizzard IV, or your Light Spirit will cast Curaga IV or some other amusing thing... but most of the time they just sit there and cast less useful things like Spikes or Aquaveil or whatnot.

(e) Spend MP on spells from a subjob. /WHM obviously works for this. /RDM can Dispel (unreliable, but Dispel is at least somewhat usable even when subbed on a job with no Enfeebling Magic). /BLU can tack on some bonus damage from spells, but it's pretty marginal when subbed since SMN has such low STR.


Icemage

[thephil]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

umm if u had a choice from a rdm as only healer or a smn (which IS the case in most instances id rather have the rdm who on HIS/HER own can refresh themselves and has better curative magic heck even setting up the pt so u have a pld/whm pld/war and another tank of choice if u feel u need it than 2 dds and a rdm of what everjob that may be doing some healing and ur good to go.... and just so u know i have had several pld/whms in my pts and they hold hate very well leaving me with little to no curing allowing mp to use more more expensive BPs for more dmg... although most of u already have the mind set that we smns can do no more than heal so im really starting to believe this thread is useless since u dont want to hear it anyway

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

100% Wrong.. but it seems set in your mind.. so there's most likely nothing I can say that will change your mind.

Set in my mind? I'm going from experience. If you actually think SMN's can do more and didn't agree with what I said, why not actually SAY what it is that SMN's can do besides main heal instead of putting out that pathetic copout of "nothing I say will change your mind". All that is is a waste of a post and a waste of time reading it since it looks silly that you disagree with something, yet won't say why when forums like this one are made for discussion.

Seriously, say what a SMN could do inbetween Blood Pacts that would warrant SMN to take place of another job that specializes in that same area(Nuking, Pet DD, debuffing, support etc) that has nothing to do with healing. I'd love to hear it.

[SharMarali]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

How many times do i need to reiterate that if a summoner has capped skill and knows the job very well, there are other tools besides the bloodpacts that have generally a lower timer from 50secs down to 18. summoner's sub really doesn't add anything to the job it can't do by itself besides job abilities and a few spells.

Maybe it would help if you actually expanded on that instead of just "reiterating" that cryptic sentence over and over. Because I've been a level 75 SMN for quite awhile and I don't know of any tools at my disposal that I can use every 18 seconds that will deal out the kind of damage that Spinning Dive does. No offense, but I'd imagine that most people are probably just ignoring what you say because they don't know what you're talking about.

This forum is supposed to be for sharing ideas and helping each other out, right? So why just say "There are other things you can do..." and leave it at that? Does it hurt you in some way if you fill the rest of us in on what you're talking about? Does it make you feel less important if others know the specific secrets you're referring to? If so, why bring it up at all?

I'm not trying to be mean here. I just genuinely don't understand why you've made this cryptic statement.

[tazirai]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Set in my mind? I'm going from experience. If you actually think SMN's can do more and didn't agree with what I said, why not actually SAY what it is that SMN's can do besides main heal instead of putting out that pathetic copout of "nothing I say will change your mind". All that is is a waste of a post and a waste of time reading it since it looks silly that you disagree with something, yet won't say why when forums like this one are made for discussion.
Seriously, say what a SMN could do inbetween Blood Pacts that would warrant SMN to take place of another job that specializes in that same area(Nuking, Pet DD, debuffing, support etc) that has nothing to do with healing. I'd love to hear it.

I'm not gonna start an arguement, but for the last 3 years worth of posts I've been saying what a SMN can do inbetween pacts. all in this lil section of the forum. Would you like me to quote myself?
I will just so you can "see" what options we have.

also to let you know an all SMN or SMn/BST PT = teh win ^^
6x SMN = win
3xSMN/3xBSt = win
5xSMN/1BSt = win
5X SMN/ 1 RDM or BRD = win
4x SMN /1xBSt/1XRDm or BRD= godly rdm should sub war or nin ,
nin preferably .
good to sometime sj brd

Pretty much everything is covered here. Also dont discount Carbuncle out yet .
He has two abilities that I love when you are the healer and one power that I love when you start doing light renkeis.
At level 69+ I just used carbuncle alot since He is free, I understand the rat alot because, I got to level 50 with just him ^^, this was before the patch to introduce the other Avatars to JP version.
Carbuncles ruby abilities make him a good back up healer to a group, and he helps you alot with them.
Healing Ruby I is level 1 and can be used as a great single target heal , this works well if you are backline and the rat can join the fray.
Healing Ruby II is AOE heal that can support you when you are up against Enemies that doe AOE damage. This is a great compliment to your cure spells and without the added aggro associated with curaga.
Also when Light becomes a primary Renkei, Carbuncles meteor can add a good bit of MB damage and is easy to time.
So thats my take on it ^^
Another good thing is that sometimes a PT of Beast Masters will get a Summoner to finish off a monster when its HP is low. Carbuncle is great for this.

You'd hate me then hahaha!! I melee from time to time in PT. But only if theres no bard, i dont want to make his life living hell.
As far as reacting faster theres a plethora of things you can react to as Summoner, if youarent the sit back and heal type. Reacting to enemy AOE or specials can help if you are closer to the mons. But it depends on the mons. Monsters that bypass defense suck and yes you can make a difference of a few seconds if youare closer. Not always but sometimes.
Im sorry not all Summoners simply cure and remove status and not all summoners sub whm i juggle what to rdm depending on PT make up and monsters we fight.
Seriously not all Summoners are gimped white mages . We can do other things you know ^^.
When I join a PT Im usually the puller/Healer/buffer and aggro control. Sometimes I MB also.
I agree with the melee thing but not all Summoners are as you say, yes the scared and the cookie ones are. but not all of us hehe.
Whitemage should also use blm to get MP and help with debuff.
Same for Blackmage with white magic.
Red Mage can use whatever support abilities their subs are. they should particularily be using Magic to weaken and slow the mob to make it squishy.
Summoners are as you say, but they can use rdm , just not black mage unless its for a specific BC fight. Which i've done before.
As for the rat...
Yes in alot of PT's now I leave my rat out in melee range with the other attackers. hes VERY useful out there. I guess since I levelled Summoner with just carbuncle When Summoner was first released I'm able to use him better than most who didnt. Carbuncle is AMAZING in leveling PT's. From helping weaken a monster, to target and AOE healing, To keeping hate off you . To even Pinpoint aggro control in case of a Link. Hes also great when you have a light renkei he can MB every 46 secs to 1 min. And the fact that hes free is great.
People really dont use Carbuncle well, in leiu of fenrir, its a shame really.
After I got the other avatars the month they were released I fell into the "newness" trap. But i realize Avatars and Summoners are more than their one minute BP and Sub job.
Wake up folks ^^
Double Post Edited:
BTW Im not picking on you teffie. it sjust you had the better quotes to use ^^
I wanted to pull something off Icemage. but I couldnt hehe.

Well I went thru " I wont level WHM cuz I hate it forever and a day Syndrome, and its boring to all tears..blah blah blah" So when I was leveling SMn I used rdm , Dispel came in VERY handy since I exped on crabs and things that used lotta of buffs. It wasnt for the MB from RDM that I subbed it. Even though Everynow and then Id hit a 50-100 or so MB with no resist.
For Debuff I only used Dia. Phalanx helped me for AOE damage reduction. I finally levelled whm respectfully. Because I'd be a hypocrite to say WHM blah blah blah without actually having it.
I do use WHM 80% of the time now. Simply for teleports and other things that arent self buffs. But When I solo NM's or Missions sometimes I will use RDM or BLM over WHM.
I think for a Summoner to REALLY be good at his/her job/. They need to be able to use ALL their available SJ's for a variety of reasons. For instance When in an all Sumoner Party, I can use /brd for ballad one . And I tell the mages to use Juice to help on every other mons.
People fail to realise that each Job can have its uses if you apply yourself and not simply go with common logic persay.
So while I agree that whm is the better SJ than RDM, its not the only one. You just need to learn how to use it at the right time. No such thing as a bad SJ in my opinion . its all abotu the application and the Situation.. When I was in the military we learned to use what we had available. So basically an AR-10 was the best weapon to have ,but if you didnt have one learn to take the bullet apart and make bombs ^^.
Same thign with the avatars, people just say use this one or that, but a true Summoner will use ALL of his powers,not just a few.
As for melee I only use two staves so I dun switch out very much since I only have apollo and Pluto. But as i said in another thread melee should be left to the melee. If you can juggle both more power to you, if not save it for the last chain.

Ill give you some advice, but depending on your personality and reputation, this may work for or against you.
i notice this heal>heal>heal> role mode mainly in NA style PT setups, Not saying JP PT right or wrong, it's just something I notice. The only two common buffs I normally throw a PT is listed below and the reason.
Blink> at the start of a PT and if I have the MP after a chain.
Stoneskin> Makes the monster hate whatever ,melee its going up against that much more, since it cant lower its hate level. I use this alot.
Hastega> When we get links and whatever we are fighting needs to die that much faster, People need cures that much faster, Cast spells that much faster.
Accuracy boost> Great for pld or nin or war tanks that need to be accurate and with it lasting 3 minutes Its a great buff. It also boosts high accuracy jobs like thf and rng, and lower accuracy jobs like drg. I use this alot also..
Evasion down Works well since whatever we need to fight should die as fast as possible, I use this mainly on Things like birds raptors and some "jobbed" bestmen. Not used as much in PT as in BC's.
meteor> Unbeliveable since everyone seems to like light or dark renkei at my level and using a free rat means i can mb along with the blm or rdm.
Carbuncle cure and curaga> its amazing since rat wont generate hate and you can do other duties. Also by rat gaining TP it enhanes his cures that much more. And you wont need to worry abotu aggro, and if your rdm or bard is up to snuff then you will be GAINING mp with rat out most of the PT.
Poison nails at the start of a fight against bestmen or crab eats em up and stacks with dia so they die that much faster.
Carby Tank: If you get an add let the rat tank while your group focuses on something else. If the monster is slow rat will last long and with its Aoe heal it can heal itself.
When you JOIN a PT tell the leader your intentions for your role. dont let them tell you what to do. Whenever I join a NA style PT i immediately tell them . I will pull, backup heal MB and help weaken the baddie. My job is also spotter in case we are fighting in a dangerous locale.
Most leaders will usually go along with what you say, BUT you need to be good at multi-tasking. A summoner cant have tunnel vision and expect to be a good Summoner.
I truly think All summoners need to level rdm to help learn timing with JA's, Magic, Supprt.
If you have a good rep as a Great Summoner, that can go a long way to helping not only get PT's but also not just curing 70- or 90% of the time.
On Ramuh since ive been around awhile I can pretty much dictate my role in a PT, without sounding like a prude. ALso Not all PT's need you soley as SMN/WHM. If you have a BLM or RDM in the PT or even Another SMN, Depending on what you are fighting Sub rdm.
SJ rdm will basically be a Summon/Dispel/Cure monkey. Dispel isnt resisted half as much as your other spells and if you have no RDM in the PT your dispel will help greatly.
ALSO try joining a PT with Beastmasters. Your job will basically be to Close the kill when the beastmasters release their Pets.
Grab the bull by the horn and let PT leaders know that if they need you curing all the time, they are doing something wrong. Which i've found is 90% of why many leaders who want smn to main heal, only want heals.

I want to agree with you but I cant. Heres why, An exp PT isnt simply for you to get EXP. Its to learn your job and the abilities that go along with them as you grow stronger. Pt's can be fun and not simply all about business. I dont want a Summoner to join me in a ENM or BCNM or mission Fight if all they can do is heal, or Aerial armor. A GOOD Summoner will eb able to do many things not simply get exp.
Do you know any summoners that would make excellent pullers? Me!!
A summoner pullign has advantages that other jobs dont, Sneak, Invisi, elementals, Aggro control, aquaveil, etc. But a Summoner that only knows to heal because they want 4k exp, will suck. Kiting is also something a Summoner is good at. Ill take one for the team and get aggro to make sure we dont get wiped with kiting.
The reason so many people suck at playing at higher levels is that they dont have experience , just experience points.

If you are a skilled player let your PT know, tell them you can do other things.
To me its not okay to just let the exp flow and hope for better in another PT.
The Reason:Complacency, you'll get used to hoping for a better PT, then another better PT, and so forth. You can add input in a way that isnt argumentative and disrepectful. if you have a leader that wont listen then you shouldnt be in that PT.
its been my experience that if i send a tell to a leader privately and tell them what I can do, Im Usually ableto do it especially if im showing skill at it.
Complacency (Thanks for the offer but i'll have to pass)

thats a lot of quotes.. theres more but I need to go..
Here's a topic for interest to read.
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sum...fix-story.html

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I didn't feel a need to elaborate on use of spirit timers and other things because there are plenty of guides on popular ffxi sites about them. There are more rumors though about thier lack of usefulness than there is actualy information about them. I used my spirits for almost everything going through CoP since we had a whm in the static.

I made it cryptic because usually when i suggest that players find strategies on using every single spell available to them to expand the ability of summoner, i get the brady guide treatment. "They cost too much, you have to level your skill to use them, i can do the same thing with spinning dive, etc." I try not to directly suggest that people should start knowing both spirit and avatar uses because it always turns into "you're just wasting your mp" mudsling.

Spending MP on Spirits. Huge MP-sinks. I'm really not sure why summoned spirits cost so much to maintain. It wouldn't kill S-E to reduce these to something reasonable - you're already sacrificing the ability to rest, there's no reason for them to cost more to perpetuate than a Prime Avatar. Sure, sometimes you get lucky and your Ice Spirit will whip out Blizzard IV, or your Light Spirit will cast Curaga IV or some other amusing thing... but most of the time they just sit there and cast less useful things like Spikes or Aquaveil or whatnot.

summoned spirits do not cast buffs on themselves. If you are playing as the healer, then of course there is no mp to use spirits. They are the only things that summoner has which absolutely must be used as a pet. Avatars can be used for thier bloodpacts as if bloodpacts are spells, which generally defeats the whole point of having a pet at all.

[SharMarali]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I think people would find the spirits to be more useful if you actually had some control over what they did. I'm not suggesting that a SMN needs to have *complete* control over what spells a spirit casts and when, because at that point, the SMN becomes the same as a BLM. But as the game is currently set up, using spirits amounts to complete and utter randomness. When you completely remove the control aspect from the player, you remove the element of skill, and there becomes little difference between the SMN and an NPC.

As for the "standard" argument about the massive amount of MP that a spirit takes... If you do the math and consider that the spirit's spell doesn't cost you any EXTRA MP like a blood pact does, there's really little to no difference in MP cost between a spirit and an avatar prime. That argument is basically null and void when you take all things into consideration.

I admit that I don't exactly have TONS of experience with using spirits, because the idea of leaving the gameplay up to chance leaves a bad taste in my mouth. So I have a question. What's the resist rate like on the higher tiered spells from a spirit, and is the damage actually comperable to a BLM casting the spell? In other words... We all know that Leviathan's WaterIV is more or less a joke compared to the same spell cast by a BLM. How about the water spirit casting the same thing?

[Drive]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Summoning and just using a bloodpact(or astral flow) makes smn what it was from FF3-FF9. A glorfied black mage nothing more. In X and XII summons were so powerful that they have to replace all party memebers(except for one in XII) to offset the balance issues. X gave you full control over your summons except Yojimbo and Magus Sisters while XII has the summon just melee until its timer is up and then it'll perform its powerful spell and be on its marry way. I though that was kind of funny so that's all i'm going to say.

[SharMarali]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you that SMN in FFXI is "a glorified black mage and nothing more."

I can't say I've ever seen a BLM cast stoneskin on its party, or alter the evasion and accuracy of all their PT members or their enemy, or raise the magic attack power and resisitance of their PT members.

I'm not sure WHY people leave out the incredibly powerful SUPPORT functions SMN has at their disposal, but for some reason, they do.

And if damage dealing is the only thing you want to focus on, guess what? A SMN can do 10,000 points of damage in a fight and never pull one ounce of hate. I can't say I've ever seen a BLM do that.

To me, that makes SMN "something more" than BLM. You'll never hear me say that SMN is a more powerful damage dealer than BLM. That's just silly. BLMs are built to dole out offensive elemental based damage. That's what they were designed to do, it's their primary function, and they can dish out TONS of it.

That's not SMN's primary function. SMN *has* no specific primary function, which is why people are able to play it in such a variety of ways. That's what makes SMN different from BLM.

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Avatar magic damage tends to be garbage compared to spirit magic damage. A spirit spell will do the same amount of damage on a TierIV spell as an avatar with full TP would. The only magic i use avatars for now i netherblast if thats useful in the situation.

All pet jobs in this game have a degree of randomness in them and i think summoner shouldn't be any different. Random spirit casting is no different than random sic ability on bst or random breath on drg. If they removed the randomness, they might as well just give us the spells up front with no pet required. Then we really would be nothing than a glorified whm.


Cost is a different issue, but with my setup i get 1 spell for every 40-80mp which i think is perfectly fine. There are so many situations where spirits can work very effectively but lack of summoner community's efforts to improve itself keeps them from being a norm.