Stop telling SMN's what to do

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Excuse me but it IS a summoners job to main heal till the late 60's -75 when they actually get decent damaging BP's. You say SMN has alot of power, when infact the avatars melee for hardly anything, and do the damage of a BLM spell once every minute. if we wanted a gimp BLM, we'd get a RDM. :3 SMN get a VERY large MP pool which is why when subbing WHM, they ARE main healer, there is no arguing against it and I'm telling you this from years of experience. Just because someone's SMN isn't higher then yours, the likely hood is, they have other jobs at 75 and KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT. Don't be a stubbern SMN that gives other SMN's a bad name, instead be FLEXIBLE.

Just because thats the way the job is currently used does not mean that is the correct way to play the job. The developers never invisioned summoners trying to take on the role of whitemages in most situations. I think also that if you don't have bst, pup, or drg at 75, you're not going to have much of an idea what summoner is about. I really don't considr it a mage job so much as it is a pet job, which is already a classification SE uses when they seperate the jobs. Jobs with pets are a whole different category than any other for them. They have been encouraging avatars to be summoned for longer periods of time and use of the avatar tp gaining system.

For instance when playing drg any mage job you sub will make your wyvern into a healing type. whm,blm,rdm, and blu are included in this category. Any pet job you sub will make your wyvern an attack type wyvern (smn,bst,pup, and drg/nosub). DD sub will do the same type of attack wyvern, and hybrid jobs like nin,pld,drk will make you're wyvern a hybrid type as well.


Summoner is not used for damage only because players do not understand how a pet job works, and that the longer the pet is out, the better it is for everyone. The new bloodpacts are there to encourage a style of play where you chose the appropriate avatar and can leave that avatar out for a longer period of time and multiple uses. You could use predator claws on an hnm, leave garuda out for TP, then burst the next light skillchain with windblade or heal the group with a TP'd up Whispering wind. Thats what SE has in mind as far as summoner taking more practical advantage of its pet instead of just using bloodpacts as if they are spells, which they're not. They are a bonus you get for the use of your pet, which is why they plan to have buffs soon effected by summoning skill and possible TP.

I have been playing this job since it was started and i saw it degrade into the state of being a third rate healer. There were really no avatars besides carbuncle back then and no -perpetuation gear which they have added a lot of since then. An average 75 summoner with merits in spirit perpetuation can have both spirits and avatars at 9mp/tick without refresh, and with relic that can be reduced as low as 3mp/tick no refresh. I have had free leviathan in Caedarva mire before and gained mp back with evoker's roll and had him out for about 8 fights before i had to rest. With the amount of -perpetuation, +smn skill, and refresh avaiable in the game today, the only thing stopping summoner from being played as a pet class purely is the playerbase itself.

[thephil]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

another interestin tid bit about smns is that i have "accidentally" summoned around pots and was not aggroed the same goes for wyverns, and (from what i have seen with bst) charming mobs.. many treat summons like yuna from ffx believe it or not even at lower lvls her summons where still worth using and i wish ppl would see that with ffxi.

[Goldesper]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

its about time someone else feels the way i do... and i have a question for all of that believe we r just main healers... have u ever seen viper bite and poisoned nails dmg in a SC? if the answer is a no that its about time u pt with smns and use them for SCs and MBs... we do a fine job in that departme

Wow, you can do a lot of damage every minute. Thats absolutely amazing. Really.
Now, what is stopping you from doing that in addition to healing?

[thephil]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

a smns healing power doesnt add up to the healing power of a whm or a rdm so if u cant a whm a rdm should be second choice and a brd should be third... not only can it heal it has regen and refresh abilities + better stat ups than smn... smn is basically for DD

[Murphie]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

a smns healing power doesnt add up to the healing power of a whm or a rdm so if u cant a whm a rdm should be second choice and a brd should be third... not only can it heal it has regen and refresh abilities + better stat ups than smn... smn is basically for DD

Except that a SMN will have considerably more MP than a BRD, thus making it actually possible for them to main heal, unlike a BRD who would be hard pressed to act as main healer. I know I wouldn't on BRD.

[Telera]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I've always loved doing both jobs. Healing and DD. I believe I've said this before, it's depended on the individual party. I've had parties ask me to heal, some to DD, some to SC w/ the melee, some to MB.

Me, even when I've had a whm, between BP's I tossed out cures to help ease the whm's burden. Generally speaking the whm and I worked out a switch off pattern. I'd BP and rest, keep up buffs and back up in an emergency. We'd go that way until the whm ran low, then they'd take a knee and I'd take up main heal until they were back on their feet. Then I'd rest up to full and go back to the buff pattern until time again. It worked well, because of my much larger MP pool and the multiple Clear Minds, I was usually refilled fast.

In VoS, I would use Levi's Spring Water to save the need for multi Virunas and that much more MP saved for them.

As a summoner/white mage I adore the versatility of my chosen job. I've got power to attack, and the power to save the party. I don't understand why some summoners don't see that and cherish it.

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

As summoner it is possible to do good damage every 20 seconds, but it takes the upper levels to achieve this. Summoner possess the ability to do both, but the job is clearly not mean to be able to spam abilities endlessly back to back. There is a limit just as there is on every pet job. Otherwise drgs would spam elemental breaths, bsts would spam sic, and pup would spam flash and CureIV.

[tazirai]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

the only thing stopping summoner from being played as a pet class purely is the playerbase itself.

I just wanted to say thank you ^^

[Goldesper]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I'm a musician. And I've been told many times when I'm playing a piece that I'm playing in a box. A really small box. Which means that I'm playing the said piece of music with absolutely no style, no dynamic changes, no technique, nothing but what is written on the page. Period.

You are playing SMN in a box. A really small box. Your not playing it to its full potential if your just playing what everyone whores you out for (main healing) or if your going smn/blm so you can OMGWTFBBQ that goblin with a fire II at 75 for that extra 15 points of damage.

If your going to play summoner, then take pride with your job and do everything in your power to be as universal or as omni-versal (yay for making up words) as you can be. Personally I have no clue as to how crappy or as to how OMGWTFBBQ summons are as far as damage over time, but if you can perpetuate an elemental or an avatar or which ever, and still main heal, I can guarantee that you will be on somebody's white-list. Whearas if you play just one style, then you won't fit the party and you could potentially be the wrench that was thrown into the gears.

Lets look at this situation:

Level, say... 55 (Rampage, yay!) you get invited to a party that looks like...
PLD BRD RDM SMN DRG WAR.
Lets also say that you are one of those main-healing onry SMNs. Your gonna have a rough time. If there was a party meant for non-burn DDing, it would be this one. Ballad AND Refresh. What else could you ask for? (Refresh from Cor >.>, but pushing that aside...) You just gonna sit in that little box and spam cure III and rest, only bothering to summon to support buff your party every once in awhile.

Lets look at another situation with the same party. You are one of those SMN/BLM ONRY I WILL NEVER CURE EVERY LOLZ SMNs. The RDM obviously can't take over all of the healing duties. Afterall, he has to Haste 3 people and Refresh 3 People . Yeah, he could main heal this party, but I'm willing to bet that there would be a lot more downtime as compared to you just sucking it up and using some of your precious(sp) little mana to throw in a few Cure IIIs. Your just gonna sit in that little box and be all OMGWTFBBQ every minute, and then rest for the remaining time between summoning, BPing, and releasing.

Now lets look at the third situation. You are one of these "omni-versal" SMNs, you can do it ALL! You come into the party and you throw in a support buff everyonce in awhile, but you'll also MB and/or do BP as soon as its up. You duo-heal with the RDM, sharing responsibilities, easing up the down time, hell I don't know why you don't start overhunting! Your in a huge box, you can do it all!

I know which one I'd invite time and time again.

a smns healing power doesnt add up to the healing power of a whm or a rdm so if u cant a whm a rdm should be second choice and a brd should be third... not only can it heal it has regen and refresh abilities + better stat ups than smn... smn is basically for DD

I think I'm gonna have to call you out on that one. How the heck is a BRD going to main heal anything. Having a subjob's MP being the only MP you have, even as a Taru with full MP merits, decked out in +MP or HP->MP gear you are gonna have one HELL of a time main healing ANYTHING and keeping up your other dutues, pulling, enfeebling, and of course buffing. Yes BRD does have more stat-ups, but they take each 8 seconds to cast. so you have 8+8+8+8 seconds (24seconds) assuming you take no travel time. Really, it takes 30-32 seconds to fully buff the party. However, this also is not usually how it works. Usually its 8 seconds for Buff1. Pull (10-20seconds). Lullaby(4-6 seconds) Buff2. Pull. Lullaby. Buff3. Lullaby. Pull. Lullaby. Buff4. Elegy. Pull. Never ending cycle, that stops. You would literally have to change the entire style of the job to make BRD even considered able to main heal.

Although I'll forgive you for not knowing about BRD, since I don't know quite as much as SMN as I would like to.

[tazirai]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I
As a summoner/white mage I adore the versatility of my chosen job. I've got power to attack, and the power to save the party. I don't understand why some summoners don't see that and cherish it.

It's not the fact that we don't want to heal, Which I don't mind, it's the fact that Summoners are invited Solely to heal. I've had friends complain simply because they were not allowed to use an avatar except stoneskin for bombtosses.

There is alot a Summoner can do, that doesnt' involve cure or Spamming stoneskin. The problem lies in the non Summoner players and the complacent Summoners who just want to PT.
Do you know how many Blue mages have no clue how to play their job? Same thing with Summoners, Blu's think /thf /nin is only way and it's not.

Summoners think /cure is the only way and it's not.
I've made many Posts before about what SUmmoners can do outside of their BP's.

I HIGHLY encourage Summoners who want to play as a Summoner to join a BST or BST-SMN party. They will experience a new side of their job, when they are not endlessly spamming a garbage cure2-3.

Sad that it took a Beastmaster for me to figure out how to really be a Summoner.

[Telera]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

No, Tai, I'm agreeing with you.

I'm not happy at all that 99% of the time that's all I get asked to a party to do either. Most of the time I kind of sigh in a sad sort of resignation to the fate and just go with it. I would love to see the day where people understand how summoners could be played.

What I'm talking about *is* the people who refuse to ever heal. Not necessarily as main heal (whatever that really is, the farther I go, the less I believe in a main healer) but even as someone just willing to extend a hand to meet a white mage or red mage halfway in the process.

All I was saying is, it's a nice thing to know, that as smn/whm, I have a very broad set of abilities and can act in a multitude of ways. And some people don't seem to be as proud of it as others. And I meant both sides of that. You've got the summoners who only want to cure, and the summoners who only want to summon. Neither end is making full use of their abilities.

I'd say 55+ I've acted more as a summoner in parties than a white mage. I've had enough MP to heal and still work on MB and DD BPs, I'm able to keep Carby out and with a Refresher still be gaining MP. That Meteorite hurts if you let him get some TP up.

I don't think we should only heal. I'm as depressed as any summoner that almost no one knows how to implement our class to its fullest. I get down when all they want out of me is Stoneskin-ga. But then the next day I find hope when a party asks me to MB w/ Tier IV and I see myself contributing to the damage rather than just the defense. I think, slowly, surely, the playerbase is coming to understand us.

But for it to completely reverse it's going to take alot of good summoners like you, Tai. I don't dare dote on myself. I've had people say 'Good job' after parties, but I'm kinda psycho-critical of myself and tend to just nod at things like that.

We need people who can show people what we're meant to be, what we can be, which is much more than glorified, half-assed cure machines. And when people say 'Ooh' at me throwing out a MB without them asking, and still keeping up with my cures or buffs or whatever my role is, I feel kind of proud that I just showed them something they might not have thought of before.

By no stretch am I saying we should only cure. I'm just like you in thinking people really need to learn to see more in us than Cures. SE's trying. The new BP's and whatnot, but I still think there's something that needs to be done, a final turning point. I'm not sure what, it's hard to do things without unbalancing aspects. But I do feel more... involved... in parties that actually say 'Hey, Tel, you okay with MB/DD?' as if they're afraid I'll be upset at being asked to do damage. Where'd that come from? o.O I'll toss BPs at anything you point me at. Gladly. I like watching Carby drop rocks on mob's heads. It amuses me.

Then there's the people that seem to genuinely regret asking me to heal. I've had leaders apologize for making me do it intermittently through a whole party. And I think they're the ones who know I could do more, but our set up doesn't much allow for it. I'm okay with that when it's a necessity.

Sorry if I was misunderstood.

[thephil]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

its like the way i feel... the whole point i try to make is that ppl should look at smn and say main heal... if im a whm in a pt of dd and tanks im fine i have all the necessary spells but as a smn im no good solo as a smn/whm i dont have erase i dont have cure4 and ppl complian when i go to give them r1 instead of calling for r2 or r3.... first of all i think losing exp is dumb to begin with but thats for another post.... but ppl shouldnt complain if i say im only willing to back with a rdm as main.. a rdm has better mind than a smn and can heal better than a smn i have even preferred a rdm to main heal and leave the smn to dd cause a smn doesnt need mind or even int as much as other mages for the abilities of the avatars and i dont know about other smns but i basically set my self up for best def, mp and avatar boosts... things such as austere which lessen time for BPs and -perp i dont care for mind... mind gear is a waste of valuable space for better gear for smning power...

[Icemage]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

its like the way i feel... the whole point i try to make is that ppl should look at smn and say main heal... if im a whm in a pt of dd and tanks im fine i have all the necessary spells but as a smn im no good solo as a smn/whm i dont have erase i dont have cure4 and ppl complian when i go to give them r1 instead of calling for r2 or r3....

People that complain about losing XP when they die should instead focus their energies on not dying, and aren't worth your time. You lose far more XP waiting for a R2 or R3 than just taking the XP loss and just continuing on gaining XP (this is ESPECIALLY true now that Raise 1 is 50% XP restoration instead of 25%).

but ppl shouldnt complain if i say im only willing to back with a rdm as main.. a rdm has better mind than a smn and can heal better than a smn i have even preferred a rdm to main heal and leave the smn to dd cause a smn doesnt need mind or even int as much as other mages for the abilities of the avatars and i dont know about other smns but i basically set my self up for best def, mp and avatar boosts... things such as austere which lessen time for BPs and -perp i dont care for mind... mind gear is a waste of valuable space for better gear for smning power...

SMNs have the best MND and INT stats of all jobs. I don't know where you got the impression that RDMs have better MND, because they don't, though they do make better use of what they have than SMNs (who, when all is said and done, care only about stats that affect their avatar power or MP).


Icemage

[Vyuru]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Excuse me but it IS a summoners job to main heal till the late 60's -75 when they actually get decent damaging BP's.

I disagree.

I am not a summoner, so I don't know exactly what some abilities are called or when summoners get them, so bear with me

Titan gets Megalith toss at what, 35? That deals at least 200-300 damage to IT crawlers at that level, that's equivalant to say, SA + Sturmwind damage.

Carby gets Meteor when? Again, the one I saw was doing 400-500 damage on IT crabs in the Boyahda tree, i think they were robber crabs, but I don't remember for sure.

It's been my experiance that red mages aren't casting alot of enfeebles of late, so suddenly Shiva's Ice Spikes are alot more attractive.

Titan's Earthen ward, Garuda's Aerial armor, are all good party buffs. ANYTHING from Fenrir is just godly.

Carby's random stat+ is fairly decent, his Shining Ruby II is just awesome for the hp it gives back.

And those are most of the buffs/attacks that I have seen a summoner use that really stick out in my mind. I do not think that they are gimped whm, and I cringe whenever I have to ask one to main heal my party, I'd rather have a summoner summon.

[thephil]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

thats the way it should be... we should feel free to set ourselves up for extra mp and anything that helps boost the stats of our avatars or -perp or -BP time so we can spend more time DDing and Nuking