Stop telling SMN's what to do

[Tirrock]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Carpenter's landing seems to be a pretty common exp on midgardsormr. I saw 3 parties this morning while I was getting some wood supplies. (Although, only one of them was a full party, the rest were 2 to 4 people parties.)

[Murphie]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I've only ever duo'd there. No one I know exps there. But if they ever want to, I'm up for it!

[Telera]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I love doing the 'odd' pt spots. There's usually much less competition. I had a party doing bats in Behemoth's Dominion once. I thought that was kind of neat. We got good exp and didn't have to put up with other parties calling us horrible things because we got a mob first. ;_;

My problem with that party wasn't the moving, it was the moving when two members had already said they had to go soon, so guess what happened? We got out there, they had to go, no replacements to be had and the party broke. I'd rather have had what they deemed 'poorer exp' than wasting nearly a half hour with no exp... :/

[Atma]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Case in point: Korroloka Tunnel.

Do 14-20 in two days in Valkurm, or do 14-20 in 4 hours in Korroloka Tunnel.

So why don't more people do Korroloka? Trying to find 6 players who aren't going to space out cause they haven't killed anything in 10 whole minutes is an exercise that will test your patience to the very bounds of human endurance.

[SharMarali]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

This isn't meant as a flame to the OP, because I really don't believe that the OP is one of the people that fits in this category.

I've PTed with a lot of SMNs who really, truly, didn't have a FREAKING CLUE what they were doing.

I don't usually correct PT members, even if they're blatantly and obviously doing something wrong. I'm big on "the game is supposed to be fun, let everybody have their fun." But I can certainly understand why somebody would WANT to correct a SMN who has no freaking clue what's going on.

And where this translates to the OP is: There are so MANY SMNs who have no clue what's going on, if your PT didn't see you doing specifically and exactly the same things they've seen a GOOD SMN do in the past, they might easily have thought you were one of those confused ones. Unfortunately, because few other jobs are anywhere near as versatile, people look for SMNs to all do the same thing. And because SMN is so versatile, no two SMNs really play exactly alike. So PTs become confused, thinking that there is only one way to play SMN and it must be the way that the good SMN they PTed with last week did it, because frankly, there's only one way to play MOST jobs. So they see somebody doing something different and assume they need help. It's something you'll have to learn to live with if you're planning to raise SMN to 75 and not play it exactly like somebody else, and you'll need to learn how to politely say "let me explain to you how I play SMN and if that's a problem for this PT, please explain to me why it's a problem and I'll try to adjust."

Also, just a side note to everyone who has made the assertion that SMN is not a main healer. While I agree that SMN is a powerful class capable of being MORE than a main healer, there are circumstances under which the PT calls for us to main heal. Actually, there are a LOT of circumstnaces like that. The fact of the matter is, by the logic displayed in this, and a few dozen other threads on the topic, it sounds like most people seem to think that the only job that should ever main heal is WHM. Okay, yes they're built best for it. But if you think that every single PT ever built will have a WHM in it, or that there will be a WHM available to join every single PT ever built, you're sorely mistaken. Sometimes SMNs will have to heal. Sometimes RDMs will have to heal.

In my opinion, it's kind of selfish for a SMN to refuse to join a PT as a main healer, because that limits what other jobs can be invited. You're basically saying "I'm not going to join you unless you have a WHM and a refresher too. Go find them. Now." If you refuse to PT unless there's a WHM with you as well to play the main healer role, you're putting the PT leader in a really bad spot and putting yourself in a position of cutting in half the number of invites you could've otherwise gotten.

[Karinya]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Really, I think the concept of a "main healer" is flawed.

Two healers means one can rest while the other is healing; they can split up their hate so that neither of them pulls hate off the tank; if they are both WHM or /WHM they can cure AoE status faster; and if they are different jobs they probably have different buffs which stack. So why are people so stuck on the idea that they must have *one* "main healer" and everybody else should just sit around watching them heal?

Two WHM is usually too defensive - the WHM can't contribute enough to damage if they have extra MP beyond the needs of healing and protective spells. But a WHM and RDM, WHM and SMN or SMN and RDM are all good healing teams that also provide other valuable benefits (protectra, bar spells, haste, SMN unique buffs, refresh, MB nukes and bloodpacts, etc...)

And don't leave out the BLM. BLMs are typically limited in what they can do in battle because they don't want to draw hate; but they have a lot of MP and the very powerful Conserve MP trait, so they should use some of that MP to cure people *between* battles (when they can't get any hate for doing it), or to remove negative status (which has very little hate to begin with) - this reduces the time and MP spent by the other healer(s) and lets them spend more of that time resting to regain MP.

In fact, BLM/WHM would be at least as good a "main healer" as SMN/WHM, if they wanted to. Conserve MP is actually STRONGER than Auto-Refresh if you cast enough spells, which practically every healer does. People demand "main healing" from SMN and not from BLM because they respect BLM's other contributions to the party and don't respect SMN's. Partly this is because of the history of SMN's other abilities being gimped for a long time (some people argue they still are), partly because people underestimate the importance of buffs and debuffs, and partly just because people are stupid and get stuck in ruts.

Anyone who tells a SMN not to summon deserves to be told to shut up, and if they persist, booted from the party, and if they are the pt leader, then they don't deserve to have a SMN in their party in the first place.

[Sabaron]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

...when most of the mobs are weak to blunt attacks...

I have the elemental weaknesses chart, but I haven't seen one for weapon types. Is there perhaps a nice juicy compilation of these somewhere as well?

[SharMarali]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Two healers means one can rest while the other is healing; they can split up their hate so that neither of them pulls hate off the tank; if they are both WHM or /WHM they can cure AoE status faster; and if they are different jobs they probably have different buffs which stack. So why are people so stuck on the idea that they must have *one* "main healer" and everybody else should just sit around watching them heal?

I guess I've had, for the most part, different experiences than you have had in PTs. I've only had a small, tiny handful of situations where people have "sat around watching" as I, or anyone else for that matter, healed the entire PT. And every time it's happened, I've been really vocal about saying "Hey, I don't mind healing, but you guys need to contribute too. We can chain a lot higher if I'm not completely draining all my MP while you guys spend half your time resting."

Usually, once the other mages in the PT stop grumbling and actually TRY backup healing, they see that what I'm saying is completely valid. Most PTs I've been in, I don't have to tell anybody to backup heal... They just see when the main healer is having trouble and toss in their contributions.

I'm definately a believing in "heal by committee" but the fact is, as a SMN, I've never left my avatars out to melee (hey, SE might hate it but THEY'RE the idiots who made avatar perpetuation so costly AND made BPs so costly lol) so ultimately I have large periods of time when I CAN'T be a summoner because I'm waiting for my timers to recharge. At lower levels, it was 60 seconds, and now it's 47. It's still a chunk of time where I really CAN be best utilized as a healer, in my opinion.

Regarding another statement you made that I didn't quote, that PTs respect BLMs other contributions to a PT but not SMN's... I have to respectfully disagree with that sentiment. Yes, there are a few people who don't respect other things that SMNs can contribute, but by and large I don't find that to be the case. There are several inherrent differences between a BLM and a SMN that makes healing more logical for a SMN than for a BLM.

1) As I mentioned a short time ago in this post, SMNs need to wait 46 to 60 seconds to do another blood pact. Unless they leave their avatars out, which is generally ill-adviseable for extended periods of time, this time needs to be filled with something else. Meanwhile, BLMs can be and often ARE casting spells at any given time.

2) While SMNs have a variety of roles we can fill, BLMs really have only one. Their role requires that, among other things, they pay close attention to the skillchain and start casting their best corresponding spell at exactly the right time to create the largest amount of damage possible for the magic burst. While there are a lot of SMNs who magic burst at certain levels, there are also other ways for us to create just as much (or even MORE) damage and other ways altogether for us to contribute to the PT. A BLM trying to main heal would be completely out of commission during the skillchain and this could potentially prove lethal to PT members getting hit during this time. SMNs have no specific time when they have to stand around waiting for the exact moment to do something, and even MBing SMNs can adjust their tactics if the PT needs them to.

3) DDing SMNs don't get hate from the damage they deal. Using mountain buster, or at lower levels, double slap or any other blood pact you can think of, will NOT cause the monster to come after you the next time you cast a cureIII. Using thunderIV, or at lower levels, any other offensive spell you can think of, most certainly WILL add to your hate score to the point that casting cureIII could put you over the top.

4) In the absence of a RDM, BLMs are often called upon to cast certain debuffing spells in addition to the other work that they do. Even when a RDM is present, BLMs often toss out a couple of BLM-specific debuffs. In some PT setups, BLMs are needed to stun certain attacks that are extremely detrimental to the PT. These are all things that a BLM needs to pay somewhat close attention to that a SMN really cannot do at all. The only debuffs we can use are tied to avatars, and we don't even see when those wear off and need to be recast.

5) Most BLMs nowadays don't pay attention to max MP or hMP in their "standard" PTing gear. Many have another set they swap to for resting that does hMP, but for the most part, BLMs gear up for magic attack bonus (MAB) and INT, with a few other incidental stats that they also seek out. In the end, although BLMs do actually have the second highest POTENTIAL for max MP, they often wind up with the lowest MP endgame of any of the mage jobs simply because they can't afford to go for MP over INT or MAB. In other words, all other things like race being equal and assuming no SJs or merits, a naked SMN would have more MP than a naked BLM, which would have more MP than a naked WHM, which would have more MP than a naked RDM. But endgame, it typically goes SMN > WHM > with BLM and RDM being pretty close in terms of total max MP. While I do not feel that MP is the single most critical statistic for any mage, when you look at the level of consistency at which a SMN has significantly more MP than a corresponding BLM, it really creates an overall picture where SMNs are more "set up" to main heal than BLMs are. We go for certain stats endgame like blood pact timer reductions, but we ALWAYS consider MP and hMP to be among the most important things we dress for.

I DO agree that BLMs should be willing to help heal between battles, if the PT operates at a pace that allows for this. There are, however, certain circumstances where the pulling just goes too fast for the BLM to cast anything between battles without risking raising their hate score as the next monster is pulled.

Anyone who tells a SMN not to summon deserves to be told to shut up, and if they persist, booted from the party, and if they are the pt leader, then they don't deserve to have a SMN in their party in the first place.

I completely agree with this sentiment, but being asked to main heal and being told not to summon are two different things and I think you kind of made it sound like they were one and the same.

[angelalliforever]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I guess I've had, for the most part, different experiences than you have had in PTs. I've only had a small, tiny handful of situations where people have "sat around watching" as I, or anyone else for that matter, healed the entire PT. And every time it's happened, I've been really vocal about saying "Hey, I don't mind healing, but you guys need to contribute too. We can chain a lot higher if I'm not completely draining all my MP while you guys spend half your time resting."

Usually, once the other mages in the PT stop grumbling and actually TRY backup healing, they see that what I'm saying is completely valid. Most PTs I've been in, I don't have to tell anybody to backup heal... They just see when the main healer is having trouble and toss in their contributions.

I'm definately a believing in "heal by committee" but the fact is, as a SMN, I've never left my avatars out to melee (hey, SE might hate it but THEY'RE the idiots who made avatar perpetuation so costly AND made BPs so costly lol) so ultimately I have large periods of time when I CAN'T be a summoner because I'm waiting for my timers to recharge. At lower levels, it was 60 seconds, and now it's 47. It's still a chunk of time where I really CAN be best utilized as a healer, in my opinion.

Regarding another statement you made that I didn't quote, that PTs respect BLMs other contributions to a PT but not SMN's... I have to respectfully disagree with that sentiment. Yes, there are a few people who don't respect other things that SMNs can contribute, but by and large I don't find that to be the case. There are several inherrent differences between a BLM and a SMN that makes healing more logical for a SMN than for a BLM.

1) As I mentioned a short time ago in this post, SMNs need to wait 46 to 60 seconds to do another blood pact. Unless they leave their avatars out, which is generally ill-adviseable for extended periods of time, this time needs to be filled with something else. Meanwhile, BLMs can be and often ARE casting spells at any given time.

2) While SMNs have a variety of roles we can fill, BLMs really have only one. Their role requires that, among other things, they pay close attention to the skillchain and start casting their best corresponding spell at exactly the right time to create the largest amount of damage possible for the magic burst. While there are a lot of SMNs who magic burst at certain levels, there are also other ways for us to create just as much (or even MORE) damage and other ways altogether for us to contribute to the PT. A BLM trying to main heal would be completely out of commission during the skillchain and this could potentially prove lethal to PT members getting hit during this time. SMNs have no specific time when they have to stand around waiting for the exact moment to do something, and even MBing SMNs can adjust their tactics if the PT needs them to.

3) DDing SMNs don't get hate from the damage they deal. Using mountain buster, or at lower levels, double slap or any other blood pact you can think of, will NOT cause the monster to come after you the next time you cast a cureIII. Using thunderIV, or at lower levels, any other offensive spell you can think of, most certainly WILL add to your hate score to the point that casting cureIII could put you over the top.

4) In the absence of a RDM, BLMs are often called upon to cast certain debuffing spells in addition to the other work that they do. Even when a RDM is present, BLMs often toss out a couple of BLM-specific debuffs. In some PT setups, BLMs are needed to stun certain attacks that are extremely detrimental to the PT. These are all things that a BLM needs to pay somewhat close attention to that a SMN really cannot do at all. The only debuffs we can use are tied to avatars, and we don't even see when those wear off and need to be recast.

5) Most BLMs nowadays don't pay attention to max MP or hMP in their "standard" PTing gear. Many have another set they swap to for resting that does hMP, but for the most part, BLMs gear up for magic attack bonus (MAB) and INT, with a few other incidental stats that they also seek out. In the end, although BLMs do actually have the second highest POTENTIAL for max MP, they often wind up with the lowest MP endgame of any of the mage jobs simply because they can't afford to go for MP over INT or MAB. In other words, all other things like race being equal and assuming no SJs or merits, a naked SMN would have more MP than a naked BLM, which would have more MP than a naked WHM, which would have more MP than a naked RDM. But endgame, it typically goes SMN > WHM > with BLM and RDM being pretty close in terms of total max MP. While I do not feel that MP is the single most critical statistic for any mage, when you look at the level of consistency at which a SMN has significantly more MP than a corresponding BLM, it really creates an overall picture where SMNs are more "set up" to main heal than BLMs are. We go for certain stats endgame like blood pact timer reductions, but we ALWAYS consider MP and hMP to be among the most important things we dress for.

I DO agree that BLMs should be willing to help heal between battles, if the PT operates at a pace that allows for this. There are, however, certain circumstances where the pulling just goes too fast for the BLM to cast anything between battles without risking raising their hate score as the next monster is pulled.

.....ummmm in parties i always pull hate with my bps so i dunno what you are talking about there but anyhows. The summoner's who don't know what they are doing usually main heal. I don't main heal that's what my whm is for. SMN does not spell WHM. Support healing or healing a ninja is fine, but i've never been asked to heal a nin b/c i'm more useful as a DD. I do 1k to IT mobs and can solo IT with no problem. You just have to know what you are doing and have the proper smning skill. If you use a DD attack too early in the fight of course it won't do what you want, but if you use it right after a SC then you usually critical with it. I support heal but main healing is a no unless it's a ninja in my opinion. Some plds are good but a lot suck and that's murder on your mp casting cureIII over and over again. Anyways if you can solo an avatar or IT's by yourself and deal great dmg go for DD everytime. Don't waste your skill healing using whm for that. And besides who likes to die and eat r1 or wait for a whm to come rIII them?

[framerate]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I go wherever I'm needed in a party, and it's great to be able to fill multiple roles.

[angelalliforever]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Can fulfill multiple roles i just don't want to be healing as a main healer on smn that's what i lvl whm for not smn. I lvl summoner for support / DD/ support healing.

[framerate]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Can fulfill multiple roles i just don't want to be healing as a main healer on smn that's what i lvl whm for not smn. I lvl summoner for support / DD/ support healing.

Now that I have Stoneskinga, hastega, and blinkga I'm really starting to enjoy main healing. It's WAY different than just spamming Cure III.

Yeah I'd like to do more... but I'm damn good at healing!

[angelalliforever]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

lol to each his own or you could just play whm, but if you like healing that's your thing. When your smn skill is low and your DD sucks later though then it won't be so fun =/. Buti guess if you do smning regularly then it's not so bad, but i use my whm for healing lol

[Xylaa]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I enjoy being able to do around 500-600 points of damage most battles, main heal, and buff the party when needed.

I tend to either MB when I get a chance, or Eclipse Bite whenever I miss the skillchain. Fighting dhalmels in Bibiki Bay, I've done more than 800 with Eclipse Bite. Not good enough to DD on my own, but decent for the main healer. I also Earthen Ward + Barfira against goblins.

Last few parties I've had, I've been lucky enough to have great ninjas tanking. Last party with a paladin, I never got to summon and I spent 500+ MP per fight in cures.

[framerate]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I enjoy being able to do around 500-600 points of damage most battles, main heal, and buff the party when needed.

I tend to either MB when I get a chance, or Eclipse Bite whenever I miss the skillchain. Fighting dhalmels in Bibiki Bay, I've done more than 800 with Eclipse Bite. Not good enough to DD on my own, but decent for the main healer. I also Earthen Ward + Barfira against goblins.

Last few parties I've had, I've been lucky enough to have great ninjas tanking. Last party with a paladin, I never got to summon and I spent 500+ MP per fight in cures.

Hell yeah. Being able to do that kind of damage and heal seems to be SMN's strength. We can do so much! Although I have to say, with a good PLD I don't see a difference between my Summoning/Curing needs as opposed to a NIN. I had 4 hours with a NIN and 4 with a PLD last night and they both went awesome...

And to the poster above, My WHM is 61 and my Summoning Magic is nearly capped... so it's not like I'm just curing as a cop out. And it's not that I don't want to DD, it's just doing it ALL in a party is kinda neat. Instead of using a WHM as a spot in the party (since they're rare) we were able to add a MNK last night... (SMN, BLM, BRD, PLD, DRK, MNK) and chain SUPER FAST, where if a WHM were main healer and I took the place of the MNK we wouldn' t be going quite as fast