Stop telling SMN's what to do

[Sabaron]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Please don't flame me, I'm just a SMN-18 ^^.

I think too many people have delusions of grandeur in that a SMN should be some sort of massive DD beast. That does not appear to be the intent of the SMN job, unfortunately.

A SMN has some wicked buffs and has a pet! The big DD jobs have few buffs and no pets (BLM, MNK, DRK). A BLM has nothing between him and certain death except for a finely-adorned piece of cloth and a Bind/Sleep spell. The trade-off for this is that he gets to out-parse everyone else in terms of damage.

What does SMN have?

Big Area of Effect Buffs! These look so awesome, even though I can't use 'em yet--I really like Garuda's mass Blink and Shiva's mass Ice Spikes.

Big Debuffs! These look pretty cool to me too.

AoE damage powers and upper tier elemental magics that can be skill-chained or bursted. I hope these look really cool although I'm not expecting anything as elaborate as FFVIII Eden ^^ (although a little animeseqe razzle-dazzle cut-scening never hurt anyone). [I always thought it was quite wasteful for Eden to destroy an entire galaxy just to defeat a couple of caterpillars].

Avatars who, with me assisting, can keep a decent total damage tally running on-par with most non-DD melees.

A massive MP pool that we can use for (among other things) healing our party members.

I think too many summoners have the impression that their powers are one-shot one-kill powers like in previous FF series games (Bahamut Breath, etc.).

FFXI's Summoner is not a DD. They are versatile party members. The DD pet class is the much-maligned (though undeservedly so) DRG.

It upsets me when I see SMN doing nothing but Summon->BP->Unsummon chaining. I don't think that was the way SMN was intended to work, and on top of that, to flatly refuse to heal anyone. I think that makes a bad impression of SMN with other players and decreases invite rates. SMN is a versatile class and you should allow your party leader to use you to fill holes in his party as he sees fit. If you don't like it, suggest a more mutually-beneficial course of action rather than simply refusing to assist with a task when you are able, or just put "I don't heal" in your Comment and switch your Sub to BLM or something equally useless.

On another note, I've been wondering what exactly does Summoning skill do, if anything?


Does SMN have a hard time holding up in melee? I know that we can't really draw too much hate off of our DoT and the Avatar draws the hate once the BP activates. Can a SMN (say a Hume) safely engage mobs with his staff and put out a little damage or is this unadvisable?

[Diemond:Fenrir]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

lol oh well then alrighty then...again this wasnt meant to be a rant too all players, just those who dont knwo a thing...and i mean nothing, about smn to stop telling us what to do when u keep screwing up ur own job ^^

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Any job gets angry when you tell them what to do, especially if you are fullfilling your required job and people are just being obstinant to you doing anything else (which is the case a lot of times with whm, smn, and rdm). Really there is no definate way that you can play the job right now. Summoner has the widest range of play styles of any job in the game, which is not a good thing. The developers need to in the coming updates pin down their purpose for summoner and spell it out clearly for the player base, because apparently most summoners haven't gotten the memo for the past few years. I'd say just put up with it as best you can for now, because by the way they've been changing job abilities and traits as well as their approach to developing this game, we're in for many changes in the way people party with eachother. They seem to have everything geared to make partying more of a team effort instead of mages being told to sit down and cast "x" spell, as they usually are. In an interview last year Sage Sundi pointed out how the game is very melee oriented and only melee characters seem to have long term fun with their job in the game experience. This has got to change if the game is going to be as enjoyable as it was 2 years ago, because ever since then it hasn't been very friendly.

[capitalistnihilist]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Any job gets angry when you tell them what to do, especially if you are fullfilling your required job and people are just being obstinant to you doing anything else (which is the case a lot of times with whm, smn, and rdm). Really there is no definate way that you can play the job right now.

You bring up a good point. This is why when I invite someone to party who plays a job witout a pre-defined role such as the mage jobs you mentioned, I always tell them what they will be doing in the invite.

Example- I'm setting up a TP burn with NIN/WAR/WAR/MNK/BRD and I need a main healer. If there is only RDM seeking (unlikely but w/e) I will invite the RDM like so:

<Party> <Experience Point> <Caedera Mire> NIN/WAR/War/MNK/BRD/X <Do you need it?> <Healing Magic>

In that invite I give him the reason, camp site, setup and his role in the party. I think the issue for most of these jobs is accepting invites like this one:

<Party>?

[Coris]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I'm pretty new to the summoner racket, but I feel, based on the many flames betweent the DD and the Main Heal contingency, that the primary problem is that we are frequently trying to compare ourselves in a limited spectrum against a single class. As Sabaron said, we cannot compete in pure damage alone, and we do not have the spells to truly compete against a white mage in their territory.

Our assets, as it seems, are that we can manage enmity while causing decent damage, we have access to an incredibly varied selection of spells through spirits and avatars, and we have more mp than any other class. Our chief difficulty seems to be in using this vast pool efficiently, and recovering it in a timely manner.

Summoners have developed workarounds for the situation. Some prefer to main heal, since this focus prevents the drain of avatar perpetuation. Some prefer to strictly damage deal strictly since this lets them access more of their avatar's capabilities. In neither of these roles are we able to shine as brightly as certain other classes working at their best. I'm restating the general consensus, since I'm still a very young summoner.

Our advantages then don't seem to be best used by strictly adhering to one or the other role primarily. We can do these if these if we want to, or if we have to. However, our greatest strength lies in our flexibility. This disturbs many players since they want to pigeon-hole each member of the party; we do not fall into neat categories. Personally I enjoy this... like the red-mage, we can skill-chain, magic-burst, heal, and buff. Wise party leaders will recognize that building a little flexibility into a party can be a life-saver.

However, the OP is not talking about a wise party member. People have opinions about how we should play our class; sometimes they are helpful and sometimes they are not. Either way, we should obviously expect a basic level of decency, and respond respectfully even if treated otherwise.

---of course, it would be easier if all of the immature people playing the game had a special flag on their heads to warn us in advance of their ridiculous demands.

[tazirai]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I believe she's referring to the fact that she's currently leveling BLU.

if you mean me, no Summoner is my career. i'll be main smn forever. Blu will get love from me, but I'm a Summoner forever.

[Murphie]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Oh, well then I dunno what you meant. Unless you meant what you just said, in which case, um...that's what you meant!

[Sabaron]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

...However, the OP is not talking about a wise party member. People have opinions about how we should play our class; sometimes they are helpful and sometimes they are not. Either way, we should obviously expect a basic level of decency, and respond respectfully even if treated otherwise.

---of course, it would be easier if all of the immature people playing the game had a special flag on their heads to warn us in advance of their ridiculous demands.

Perhaps this icon would serve to best illustrate their tendencies:

I have found that most slapdash parties are quite adept at utter failure even when the individual members themselves are quite competent. I accept this, generally, and simply choose to move on, citing ineffective setup as I bow out. If you get into one of these parties, the most courteous ways to excise yourself therefrom follow:

"I have to eat dinner..."

"I think I see a friend..."

"Sorry, my GF says I have to help her get a Mannequin Head..."

"Its [Whatever's Day] and I need to fertilize my Cactus Stems!"

"My LS needs me!"

"I've got a severe case of [random unpleasant digestive disease], and I need to use the {Throne Room} AFK 30 mins..."

"{I'm sorry, I don't speak any English}"

etc...

[Diemond:Fenrir]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I'd like to thank coris for being the main one who realized that i wasnt speaking of competent and wise pt leaders/member, im speaking of those with no experience or knowledge not only of a smn but of a pt setup and another point he brought up was flexibilty, we cant just do one thing or do another, we do everything, the best pt i was in was one i was very flexible in. Garlaige Citadel downstairs, i was pulling with sneak for no links, i was doing double slap against the bats for 100-300 dmg, and id help the whm and rdm heal if needed, other than smn, bst, and probably pop, every other job has a specific job and is great at that area, but smns can do alot or even a little of everything, which sometimes causes confusion on what we should do, most smns should analyze the pt setup and situation and then decide how they will assist in the pt, after the first round in the pt, ill decide which 3 BP's ill macro in my free spots, if the pt needs serious help, ill macro hastega, earthen ward, and aerial armor, if it doesn ill throw in hastega, and maybe ecliptic growl stuff like that. it all depends on the abilities of ur pt and what they can take from mobs. and as he said also, everyone has their own opinions on how people should play their parts in pt's some r good, and some r just ignorant, but all we can do is take what ever we can and if it gets to the point where we cant take anymore, /goodbye /ma "warp" <me> and ur done, but dont be an a$$ about it, give some reason for leaving, even if it's that u have to go to the doctor for physical therapy in ur fingers cause u cant move them....even though u type oddly fast in the game lol

[tazirai]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Oh, well then I dunno what you meant. Unless you meant what you just said, in which case, um...that's what you meant!

I meant in order to see how I feel On the "telling smn what to do " thing. I 've written and posted in many threads about how I feel about people telling me, my role without input from me.

As a general rule When I get a tell I ask the jobs in the PT, then I decide what role I want to be, even though in 99.5% of the time never main heal I do support heal.

For more on that /sea tazirai

[Hamlet]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Smns should consider themselves lucky for one reason. Almost every other job starts out pretty loose with what they can do, and slowly they get pigeonholed into a specific role that they didn't intend for the rest of the game. Smn is like the exact opposite- you start off having to main heal, which is not why you chose SMN, but if you can make it to 70, you become an awesome DD and get to kick ass with big scary avatars, which is probably why you took the job to begin with.

Ask any RDMs that joined at NA release if they picked RDM so they could refresh people. I guarantee that nobody will answer yes.

Smns are weird because they really aren't that good until the highest lvls. The one thing they are fairly good at is main healing, thanks to their mp. So, embrace it as us RDMs have embraced refresh, and then be happy because you'll be kicking as at 75 while we'll still be refreshing.

[Murphie]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

Ah. Makes perfect sense now. Plus, with bonus dancing men!

I hate how when playing any mage jobs, really, melee players just love to yell at you to do your job. It's super fun.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

First off, why let someone rile you up so much. As soon as someone starts acting like a moron to me in a pt and tries to tell me how to do my job in a mean, condescending manner, I /blist him/her. Thats the end of that and I enjoy the rest of my pt time.

Next, I have to say that I can't stand people who are not flexible with their job in order to make the pt better. We are a TEAM and as a team we work together to get the best exp as fast as we can with as little hassle as possible. Sometimes this means adjusting how you play your job a bit and it varies from party to party. You may be main healer in one party but in the next you could be counted as a much needed DD. Whatever the party needs you to do, you do, even if it isn't something that is high on your list of fun. I have multiple 75 jobs and I prefer one over the rest but when there is an event the only thing I ask in ls is "{What?} {job} {Boss}?" I come on whatever job is needed and I do whatever I am told to do. This makes for a much smoother time and a SUCCESSFUL event. The same applies to pt's.

[Omniblast]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I'm a smn, and I think you should main heal till 70. After that you can stop main healing. Actually I was kidding, you can stop at 75 and after you get merits.

I've played two main healing jobs to 75. Go me. Much love I give yes?

In all fairness, SE wants us to melee. Whether this means a big DD or just keep avatar to smack things around is yet to be determined. I will take a Darkhound's approach to this and say, "Let's wait." Annoyed I am.

Patch should be in a few days, maybe longer, times I have been checking playonline website for update I have. Stop talking like Yoda I must. To bite a mithra tail I need.

[framerate]

Re: Stop telling SMN's what to do

I had a party once when I was invited (just invited, not to heal OR DD specifically) and the leader told me to "not summon at all" so that I could save MP for healing... He was a NIN so I told him to stop casting Utsusemi, since we were on the subject of telling people how to not use their job to its' full potential

I know, it makes you very angry... I get the same way. I can't stand it when someone tells me what to do in a party, be it as WHM, SMN, or something random like NIN. ({Erase Can I have it?} 1 second after getting hit with defense down drives me CRAZY! At least give me a second or two to see if I missed the log, chances are I'm in the middle of casting Erase anyways... sheesh)

But sadly, this is going to happen. People always have this "cookie cutter" mold of how they want the party to go (like the NIN on my server who would ONLY party if it was WHM, WAR, WAR, RDM, MNK, NIN and that's IT) and they're gonna tell you how they think you should be.

And then the party will argue. Then they'll all get real quiet. Then someone will "connection lost" on purpose or better yet, bad pull and everyone dies because no one is having fun.

So everyone, (yourself included when you're being told what to do) just chill out. If you don't agree with what they say, do it YOUR way. If the party survives and keeps up the pace, then more power to you. If you cause everyone's death well, at least you learned that you're not the shit like you thought you were ;0)