Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

I use them all the time for various things. They really expand the summoner's ability to do things they would otherwise not be able to do in some situations. I have a folder of screenshots i keep when i use my spirits in parties or on NM's Dynamis, etc. They are very complicated to use and unless you have at least capped skill they tend to be a little slow. Once you go over the cap though, they cast 1 second faster for every 2 skill you go above the cap.


Spirits are probably the biggest headache for the developers to balance in the job. Something that would fix avatars would make spirits a very unfair advantage. With my current merits and gear, it is possible to have a free spirit, warranting any use of them (including free whm light spirit and free magic both enfeebling and damage from the others). Seeing as i'm able to silence kirin 3/4 times with my spirit, this would not be good for the balance of the game either. I do agree though that avatars should give brd like effects when summoned as an incentive to leave them out, but I understand why they increased the cost of spirits so that they are only very effective after 75 witha specific setup. When I started summoner, they were cheaper than avatars, but they quickly changed that before anyone realized how they work.

[Karinya]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

I think the main thing they should do is significantly reduce perp cost for most avatars (maybe not Carby, his is pretty low already) and GREATLY reduce perp cost for spirits. Built in en-spell for celestials and spirits (and maybe Diabolos) would be neat too, or reducing the nerf effect when a summon attacks a monster higher level than the SMN. Either way would improve the benefit/cost ratio of leaving the avatar out. Avatar TP doesn't really address this adequately, IMO - it takes a long time of (presently) very costly investment to accumulate that TP.

And most importantly: Fix the broken and/or too weak bloodpacts. Megalith Throw, Rolling Thunder, Frost/Lightning Armors, Glittering Ruby, Whispering Wind, Crimson Howl. Adding new toys is not a substitute for fixing things that don't work. All SMN buffs should last AT LEAST 3 min (except maybe Crimson Howl, but if it is going to stay so short it needs to have an effect big enough to justify spending time and MP on it) and possibly more - since recasting them is so limited. Very weak buffs like Frost and Lightning Armors should last 10 min or more.

Megalith Throw - I think it was intended to have its atk/acc modified based on distance to target and then the distance function got screwed up, or something; but whatever the problem is, fix it. It shouldn't miss 4 out of 5 times and hit for single-digit damage on the 5th. If it's going to be inaccurate - the Sidewinder of blood pacts - that's fine, but then it needs to be very damaging. (And 80% misses is too much, in any case. ~50% miss rate and double the average damage of other BPs would be interesting though.)

Rolling Thunder should have its damage and resist formula fixed to use the summoner's Summoning Magic in place of "caster's Enhancing Magic" in the existing formula, in addition to longer duration. Right now it adds a pathetically tiny amount of damage for a short time - complete waste of a BP timer.

Glittering Ruby needs much bigger bonuses to make up for the fact that they are random and therefore frequently useless - or a long duration that makes it fire-and-forget. (Or change it so it gives a bonus to *every* stat, one each of +1 through +7 in random order; then everyone would get *something* useful, and the total amount would be comparable to Ecliptic Growl).

And Whispering Wind is WAY too slow and mp inefficient considering 99% of SMN already have Curaga at that point. Maybe the MP cost needs to vary with level along with the amount healed. Spring Water at least has its -na effect, and Healing Ruby II is actually decent on its own terms, but WW is just horrible. (Maybe give it an Erasega effect, to complement Spring Water's Everythingna?)


As for introducing a more melee oriented avatar: they already did that. His name is Fenrir. And as a terrestrial he has lower perp cost than the celestials already (although not as low as Carby's).

[Tirrock]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

Enspells wouldn't be a bad idea for avatars, since the primes already have them... I'd still rather have double attack, but enspells would be a nice boost.

On an semi-related note, I'd also like to see avatar HP at level 75 a bit higher. A 100 or 200 point increase would be nice. 1100ish HP is a bit low, even with -50% physical damage on avatars. Or at least increase avatar's magic resistance a bit...

For blood pacts: I would like to see some of those worthless blood pacts getting changed. It's okay for there to be the occasional horrible blood pact, sort of like the skullbreaker of blood pacts, but there's way too many ones that are just MP drains.

[Silversky]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

in terms of the built in en- nature of avatars: i think that this should be to the extreme, so that lik 90% of the damage done by an avatar was their corresponding element. this would motivate smn's to use different avatars depending on which enemy they were fighting, which would be nice.


also, i think the BEST change would be to give them aura like abilities, perhaps raising their corresponding stats, or giving full party regens and such, or multiple abilities as the summoner levels. the reason this idea is useful is because not ONLY would it make avatars more useful when left out, but it would also make summoners a MUCH more viable sub, especially with latent earrings and if the decreased/removed/somehow fixed perpetuation costs. i would certainly sub smn to blm if, say, having ifrit out increased the party's strength, did some minor fire damage to the target, and increased my fire spell's effectiveness by a certain percent. i certainly think that would be a good aura effect too: the corresponding elemental spells, abilities, and weapon effects were increased.

i mean, to offset these changes, i think the cost to summon an avatar should be increased considerably, as mentioned before. this would prevent summoning in avatars just for one ability or while casting one spell, and then desummoning and summoning another one. it would still push people to only summon once or twice a fight, if avatars cost 50-100 mp+ just to summon.

my main concern is that i just dont think SE is looking at summoners in the right light. they should be a little more creative in how they want to buff the job. i mean, when they mentioned at the fan festival that giving smn's more mana was a good idea, this was very indicative to their limited creative application.

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

Well at the fan festival, the developers didn't say they were thinking about adding more mp to summoners, the translator made a mistake. When he realized his mistake he replaced the words "more mp" with more incentive.

I think they have some really good ideas, but what i'd be worried about if i was a developer is the limited player creativity that exists in many parts of the game.

[Diemond:Fenrir]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

i think it would be nice to just give us more Mind Up's and more MP Boosts, also we get auto refresh at lvl 25, why not at 50 make it 2per tick refresh, then 65 3mp then 75 4mp, it would make it alot easier....or what they could do is make the avatars NOT drain mp and multiply the mp needed for BP's, so instead of 99mp for double slap, it would be 198 BUT the mp u save from having shiva out is alot less ^^

[RandomKG3]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

I actually use my LightSpirit frequently. Under the right circumstances, having a spirit can be extremely useful. My LightSpirit, for example, casts whm spells like a whm of my same level, so I can get Protect IV and Shell IV even if I'm solo. It also throws cures around, and it's cast Cure V and Curaga IV in dire situations many times. But a lot of its usefulness hinges upon having your summoning magic skill capped (or higher).

Having a free spirit, though, is overpowered, I think. Having a free portable whm with you all the time is a bit much. As main healer, you could leave it out and let it fill in a few cures for you once in a while, which would increase demand for smn's as a replacement whm. Mine currently casts every few seconds, and will heal if necessary. If it was free, I could party without a whm, and I doubt Square wants that.

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

Yeah they actually kinda gimped the light spirit back in about february. I think they really are wary about giving summoner anything that strengthens any kind of healing ability since they are trying to focus on strengthening whm now.

[Ruz]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

Baring creating a whole new job by changing everything about SMN, which sounds like a bad idea to me there are a few improvements that I would like to see made.

First Auto-Refresh 2 at 50, this will reduce peretuation costs give us more MP over time, and help with regaining lost MP. At 50 other jobs couldn't gain the ability from sub.

Give SMN food that enhances avatars, this can be an overall enhancement to attack acc mag def and anything else that can be thought of. Different foodx could be used for each avatar or for different attributes, aswell as raising mp and giving hMP, not alot maybe like +1hMP and +50MP.

Releasing the other two Celestial avatars Odin and Alexander. Odin could have superior melee abilities and dark BP, where as Alex could be a tank and have a trait that automatically gives him hate and auto-regen as well as high hate gaining BP and Light maggic BP. (this is more of a filler idea, interesting but maybe a little useless at certain levels.)

Release a way to get the unuseable magic BP that we are missing (Grandfall, Heavenly Strike, etc.) With these we could MB at high levels instead of just using the Physical level 70 BP, it would be nice to increase the range of abilities that SMN can use endgame when we want to deal damage. These could be quested, and add to the overall storyline of the avatars ^^!

Anyway there are alot of improvements and changes that could be made; gear being another good one. I am just excited to see that they are not leaving any of the jobs stagnant.

[Corrderio]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

I'm not a SMN, but to me SE should make some of the avatar bloodpacts more effective.

Some avatar BPs don't last worth crap, like the AoE elemental spikes/en- BPs for example, they wear off faster than the SMN can recover MP.

Maybe with this update these "useless" BPs will last longer/be more effective as long as the avatar is out.

[MadCrom]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

They've said they want SMNs to leave their Avatars out longer. I'm all for having Summoning Magic skill have an impact on Avatar performance. If they do that, and it gets more accepted to have Avatars out for whole battles, I hope they increase the skill-up rate on Summoning Magic too. I doubt they would, but a boy can dream.

Indeed that would be nice, have the Skill increase just like a weapon would, i know i would keep my Avatar out longer that way.

[Sabaron]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

Releasing the other two Celestial avatars Odin and Alexander.

Alexander and Phoenix are two of my favorite summons--Diablos (Diabolos) being my favorite, but he's already in. I'd like to see Phoenix with a Mass Reraise or Reraise II Buff. ^^

Not partial to Odin and his instant death move, though, but he'd be a nice melee avatar just the same.

[Canitoch]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

Getting rid of the BP timers would be nice..but that would make us too powerful. If all we did was use the 70 bps on the mob, it would die quickly. I think the timers should be different as in like, some BP's share cool downs, similar to like one poster's idea of Offensive bp's have a cool down and defensive bp's have a cool down.

Oh, I remember someone saying that if they got rid of bp timers, they should change Astral Flow effect to 1 min. That would definetly screw up the new summoners on their stratagy to solo the Avatars. Carby definetly can't melee them to death, well maybe..it would take a long ass time though, and you only have what, 30 minutes to be in the battlefield? They wouldn't be able to defeat them.

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

I don't think the issue with the bloodpact timer being there is that it would make us too powerful if removed, we'd just burn all our mp and be out. The timer is a balancer between approximately how long it takes for a melee job to get tp for a weaponskill. Through the levels its about the same thing. We could spam bloodpacts in shorter than 30 seconds if it were low level one, but thats not what they wanted summoner to do. I think they had something much more interactive in mind.

[Coldrain]

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

So they want to make us keep our SMN's out longer, make us our more viable DD pre 70, right? Here are my theories on the three most likely changes they could make. Your input on the pro/con's of these is appreciated =)

1. Change Blood Pact Timer (per avatar NOT per SMN)
This is a change I think everyone is hoping for (a change to the Blood Pact system) and although they could just bump it down to 30 seconds, I think this is more likely to happen. Besides, a BLM can cast Fire IV and then Thunder IV immediately (if he has MP) why can't we?
PRO: Makes us viable DD, makes us happy.
CON: Astral Flow + Garuda Blood Pact + Hi-Ether + Fenrir Blood Pact + Hi-ether+ ifrit blood pact + hi-ether... etc etc. 4 minutes of insane damage. WAY unbalanced.
FIX?: This change would require Astral Flow to only last 60 seconds or so instead.

2. Make Summoning Magic Effect Melee Damage
This is also likely, as it seems Summoning Magic only effects spell interruption while casting.
PRO: Maxed out magic = maxed out damage + blood pact = SMN DD ftw!
CON: None that I can see...
FIX?: None needed...

3. Make a new Avater (i.e. Odin) that is Melee Based
I've always kinda expected this one, but I might be the only one. This would be the simplest "fix" to implement on SE's part (I would assume) just be double/tripling the attack power of Odin vs all the other avatars and make his Blood Pact abilities act as "Provoke", "Boost", or perhaps "Haste (on himself)" So if you were invited to a party acting as DD, you could Summon Odin and keep up with Damage as long as you could keep up your MP.
PRO: We become a viable DD
CON: Odin's massive power may only apply to himself (but do we really need ANOTHER AoE spell?)
FIX?: None needed.

I look forward to hearing some opinions on these ideas (especially from SMN's higher than myself!)

I have to disagree with all of them, but I half agree with the last one. The part about Astral Flow isn't agreeable, because we already powerful enough and it wouldn't be fair for it to last 60 seconds. Every job has an advantage, but their are downsides. Summoners have their good sides of summoning avatars with powerful and very very useful spells. Our downside is that we lose mp while we summon. If we were to have Astral Flow for 60 seconds, then it wouldn't be fair. If it were 60 seconds, we would need a new 2 hour ability, but Astral Flow would stay as a high lvl ability to obtain.

The second idea about summong magic only being for just spell interruption is true, but it's for something else. Summon magic decreases spell interruption, increases the time when a spirit casts a spell, and increases the spirits' intelligence of casting better spells. The formula for the spirit casting time is this:

Formula = 75 - Smn magic/3 (this formula changes at lvl 50+, so I forgot the new one for it)

The solution is in seconds. So, if you're smn magic is 0, the time your spirit will cast something is 75 seconds. It is recommended for an Earth Spirit to be a summoner's first spirit because it is the only spirit that is both cheap and has a spell at lvl 1 (Stone). Also, the more smn magic you have, the more it increases your spirits' intelligence. What I mean by this is that it'll cast more powerful and useful spells. Sometimes it may be frustrating for the spirit to cast a enfeebling spell when you don't want it to. If you have the right sub for what it casted, cast the spell on the monster if the spirit hasn't already done so. Spirit's do not overcast (i.e.casting rasp on a monster that already has the effeect). Once you do that, your spirit will cast offensuve spells.

No offense, but I definitly don't like the part about adding Odin. I don't care if people hate me for saying that, but I just don't like that part. LOTS of people want Odin and Bahamut to be a summon. Square Enix might add summons that people completely ignore. Got to this site to see all of the summons EVER on FF: http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/ SquareEnix might add the ignored summons to show how useful and cool they really are. They might add Odin, but we're not certain about that. I also understand why some people want Odin, but look at some other summons on that site that might spark your interest (including previous Final Fantasy jobs).

You have some pretty nice ideas, but they seem like they are "too much." Some parts are good, and some are unagreeable to me.