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**Tirrock** · 06-02-2006, 10:14 AM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

The first one seems way too overpowering to me. We already do a very large chunk of damage on HNM, making it so we could chain spam 400-500 damage on an HNM until we run out of MP and not die from it is just wrong.

Raising our melee damage on stuff close to/past our level seems fine with me. It might get a bit overpowered if we also hit harder on EPs/too weaks, since we hit quite hard already on those. Adding a new avatar would be the laziest "fix" they could do. Sadly, it seems like it'd be the most likely too.

Edit: Gave reasoning for why I feel making blood pact timers seperate per avatar is overpowered.

**Corthaemus** · 06-02-2006, 10:31 AM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

There are more updates slated for smn? So I should stop xp until the update? I play smn as DD. I refuse to heal, so if there is another update I should definitely wait on lvling in traditional pts til then.

As for what could be changed... I'm a blm main. The first thing I noticed when I picked up smn, that seemed 'not right', was the blood pact timer. It's definitely too long. If it were shortened, I'm sure something would have to be done about Astral Flow. Perhaps add an additional command like "Special" (I am unimaginative) with a 1 minute recast timer, to control the avatar 2hr ability recast times. This way the Astral Flow ability will remain at 3 minutes, for those summoners who like having a 3-minute free avatar.

Edit: I would also love to see more summons (I.E. Odin, Bahumut, Pheonix). It wasn't until after Diabolos was attainable that I actually found interest in the job. The more the merrier, I say.

**Omniblast** · 06-02-2006, 11:19 AM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

SMN is easily the most overpowered job. We have access via spirits & Avatars to all level of spells for all jobs, whm, blm, rdm.

With that being said, I really doubt they can make a individual bloodpact timer for each avatar. Reason being that the PS2 has limited amount of memory (or SOMETHING has limited amount of memory not sure if PS2 is the true culprit).

Why do you think we couldn't get another Gobbie bag expansion and instead we went to mog lockers? Why doesn't mog lockers work anywhere else besides Aht Urhgan? Limited memory.

They did say that they will be fixing merits as well as smn skill to affect our abilities to make them stronger. I expect to see lots of formulas comming out for the calculation of Earthan Ward & Aerial Armor etc etc.

Good solution in my opinion:

Let smn skill determine skills strength for smn for all physical and magical blood pacts as well as physical stats for each avatar (no more random hp and random stats from summoning)
Let smn skill determine the priority of all spirits in terms of casting (increase casting with increased skill)
Let smn Avatar's tp determine the perpetuation of all avatars (I proposed this idea a while back, every 10% pet tp = -1 perpetuation, this will solve the melee aspect)
Let smn Avatar's bloodpacts use up all pet tp
Let all smn avatar cost increase * 10. (150 mp to call our Fenrir)
Let blood pact timer be 30, unlike previous post, there will still only be 1 timer

**Ellipses** · 06-02-2006, 11:32 AM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

They've said they want SMNs to leave their Avatars out longer. I'm all for having Summoning Magic skill have an impact on Avatar performance. If they do that, and it gets more accepted to have Avatars out for whole battles, I hope they increase the skill-up rate on Summoning Magic too. I doubt they would, but a boy can dream.

**framerate** · 06-02-2006, 12:43 PM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

Originally posted by Ellipses

They've said they want SMNs to leave their Avatars out longer. I'm all for having Summoning Magic skill have an impact on Avatar performance. If they do that, and it gets more accepted to have Avatars out for whole battles, I hope they increase the skill-up rate on Summoning Magic too. I doubt they would, but a boy can dream.

I guess that'd be nice (easier skill up) but I'm 4 from the cap right now at 35 and man... it's a bitch. But i'm SOOOO CLOSE

**Palom_FF** · 06-02-2006, 12:45 PM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

If they want us to leave our avatars out to melee, they need to up physical damage and accuracy, and lower the amount of TP avatars give. What good is keeping, say, Leviathan out attacking Kirin for 0-20 damage with 50% accuracy, and causing more Great Whirlwinds? In the lower levels for EXP PTs, it takes about an entire fight for an avatar to get 100% TP.... Not to mention we can't rest for MP if we want to save avatar TP.

From the Fan Festival, they said they were thinking of giving SMN even more MP to keep avatars out longer. This is the most stupid idea I've heard. My problem isn't my max MP, it's how fast I lose it. Right now I'm sitting at about 1300MP. It takes me just over 5 minutes to recover it all (full duration of a Ginger Cookie) with HMP+21. If I had 1800MP, I would only be able to keep an avatar out for another couple minutes, but that would also tack on about the same to my downtime. They either need to add more -perp cost gear, or lower perp costs in general. If we can keep regular avatars out for free with Refresh on, then maybe more people would be willing to leave avatars out. Even then... why? Not like avatar TP is very useful outside of a MB or the occasional Carbuncle Cure.

In regard to the bloodpact timer. I would rather see it split into two timers: offensive and defense timers. This would prevent us from spamming damage, but allow us to actually do something productive other than tossing cures. As it stands now, SMN can only do one thing at time. If you want to toss a buff, you can't DD. If you want to DD, you can't buff.

The main problem I have with avatar buffs and cures is they take so friggin' long to do (10 seconds to cast, 5 seconds for BP, and then release). If the timer was split and perp cost was considerably easier on my MP, I could, say, open a fight with an offensive BP, then switch to Leviathan or Carbuncle to melee and have quick access to Spring Water or Healing Ruby II.

**Tirrock** · 06-02-2006, 12:49 PM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

Let blood pact timer be 30, unlike previous post, there will still only be 1 timer

I'm still against touching the blood pact timer. You can get -15 seconds on the timer in equipment... A blood pact every 15 seconds would be too much damage too fast (so would every 30 seconds, in my opinion).

It wouldn't be overpowered for low levels, but it would for high levels... That's the problem that I think needs to be addressed. How can they make low level SMN not suck so much while making high level ones stay about the same?

**Ellipses** · 06-02-2006, 12:54 PM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

Right now, it'd be nice. If they make both those changes, it'd be kind of infuriating if they didn't make skill-ups easier.

1. Summoning Magic impacting avatar peformance means it will be expected to be at cap.
2. Leaving avatars out longer means even fewer chances to skill up during normal XP parties.

If they don't make it easier, that's going to mean that much more time standing around spamming summons.

**Atma** · 06-02-2006, 01:17 PM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

I'd like to see them add the blood pacts for abilities the avatars use that we don't get, meteor strike, wind cutter, etc somewhere between 50-70. 50-70 for smn is like a total dead zone, besides petit meteor, eclipse bite, and the infinitely-useless-except-on-a-MB-then-they're-kinda-ok Tier IV spells, there's no other abilities for SMN for 20 levels.

It'd also be kinda cool if having an avatar out would grant access to spells. For example, if you had carbuncle out you'd gain access to cureII at level 15-17 or something, and the other ones could give access to some tier II black magic at higher levels or something.

I also think that it'd be cool to see "Astral Flow" thrown on maybe a 20 minute timer (with the same downside, drains all MP, etc), except as a 1-shot effect instead of a 3-minute perpetual effect and no free perpetuation, and develop a new 2hr for the job. The astral flow abilities are just incredibly cool, it's a shame we get to use them so infrequently and almost always in hectic situations. And seriously, if you think that this would "break" us... yeah, no.

And for the love of god fix the fricking fenrir and diabolos fights >.<

**framerate** · 06-02-2006, 01:36 PM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

Originally posted by Atma

And for the love of god fix the fricking fenrir and diabolos fights >.<

What's wrong with them?

**Atma** · 06-02-2006, 01:41 PM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

Last I checked, SMN was unlockable at 30 like every other job. Both avatars also have abilities usable between 1 and 70. Square has said in the past that "The Fenrir fight is far more difficult then intended, but we're not fixing it because of people who have it would get upset."

You should not need level 75 in another job before you can play your preferred job properly*. But that's the last I'm saying on it because this thread isn't for it. My opinion on the Fenrir fight is well known.

* I should also point out that "properly" to me entails having the appropriate-good gear (within reason) for your level, and all spells and abilities known.

**Telera** · 06-02-2006, 03:31 PM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

Originally posted by Atma

Last I checked, SMN was unlockable at 30 like every other job. Both avatars also have abilities usable between 1 and 70. Square has said in the past that "The Fenrir fight is far more difficult then intended, but we're not fixing it because of people who have it would get upset."

That seems a stupid reason for a dev team to not fix something they know they flubbed up on.

People get upset over anything you do to an MMO, but they get over it in time. That or they quit and move on, either way it's no great loss for anyone.

They made Jedi a starter class when they 'improved' (I use that term *very* loosely) SW: Galaxies. And sure, a ton of people bitched, but stayed in the end anyway and realized it wasn't such a big deal. They know what they achieved. What someone else does will not lessen your achievement. Conversely, however, it doesn't automatically make everyone who used the new method 'noob' 'gimp' or any of those other ridiculous titles that people throw around much too loosely these days.

Judge on skill, not how they got there. If they're good at what they do, who cares how they got Fenrir? Who cares if the fight wasn't as scary as someone elses?

Just my two cents on the Fenrir thing. No, I don't have Fenrir. Yes, I'm waiting until lvl 70 when I can contribute to the fight. How I will hit 70 without it remains a mystery, but I'll figure it out as I go. Cross that bridge when I get there.

As for improvement, I'd have to go with the skill ups and increasing general melee output (non BP) against T-IT mobs. As it is, the pissy amount of damage they do when non-BP'ing isn't even worth the mp of leaving them out, hence why no party lets us. Let skill fall into the equation for melee output for avatars. That'd help a bit. If parties saw the avatars contributing to damage other than in BP alone, I think that would make great steps towards summoners getting to be more of summoners in battle rather than make-shift White Mages.

**Kametame** · 06-02-2006, 03:32 PM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

I'd say:

En-Element: Avatars should have a built in "En-Element" spell with their melee damage. It's chance of happening and it's damage potency could depend on SMN skill.

Avatar Double Attack: Avatars should have a chance of doing Double Attack based on SMN skill.

Stat Boosts: The party and the avatar could get a certain stat boost for having the elemental (not terrestrial) avatars out. Here's how it could work:

First, align each avatar with a stat:

Ifrit: Fire: STR
Titan: Earth: VIT
Ramuh: Thunder: DEX
Garuda: Wind: AGI
Shiva: Ice: INT
Leviathan: Water: MND

and for every 45 secs that the avatar is out, the party and the avatar will gain that +1 to that stat and +5 resistance to the avatar's element.

Random BP: Now before you flame me, I'm not saying we lose control of our avatar's BPs. I'm saying that avatars have a chance of doing a "freebie" BP, completely random one from their list (still uses our MP though) depending on SMN skill.

**Tirrock** · 06-02-2006, 03:37 PM

Re: Theory on SE's Upcoming SMN Improvements

I would like to see double attack the most, personally.

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