Melee vs Support

[Nyru]

I am new to the Summoner job, only at lvl 37 now. I have been reading up on the job and I am trying to learn as much as I can, but I do have one central question that remains unanswered.

Is the central pty function of SMN DD or Support?

Granted, I don't yet have alot of the support BP, now it's just mainly Blink, but I have seen other SMN in ptys before doing nothing but support.

So far, I have been playing it as DD, keeping my avatar out and using my BP as a MB. Last pty I was MB for 150-170 a shot. IMO, doing the dmg is better for the pty than casting Blink on everyone. I have played RDM/BLM to 70, and I am a firm believer in the effectiveness of a good MB.

I have watched the numbers (no scientific analysis, mind you) and my avatar has been meleeing for as much or more than -some- of the other DDs in pty.

With only one BP available per mob (right now), I have been saving it for the MB. I am waiting for the time to come when the pty starts requesting the support ones, since that is what they have seen other SMN do.

Am I being unreasonable in wanting to stay melee, or will I be delegated to merely support in future lvls?

Thanks bunches for your imput and opinions on this matter.

[Murphie]

Re: Melee vs Support

I suppose it really depends on your party. I haven't personally played SMN, but based on past experience, we generally would invite a SMN to act as Main (sorry) and/or Backup healer. DD was nice too, mob and avatar depending, but I have to say, Support was really the main function.

However, if you can find folks who are willing to invite you for the purposes of DD, more power to you.^^ I know that's one of the bigger frustrations among SMN out there.

[Shirai]

Re: Melee vs Support

The fun thing about summoner, you can be all.

Depending on the setup of your party you can be either healer, buffer, debuffer, damage dealer you name it.
And no you're not unreasonable to want to stay as DD however you'll have to give and take at times.
Most of the time you'll have to play a support job, but there's also the occasional party where you are a DD.
Just use your own judgment when you look at the setup of your party.

[framerate]

Re: Melee vs Support

Shirai is right. However they do expect you to heal quite a bit. And expect to be asked a few times NOT to summon (when this happens I usually tell the RDM to stop enfeebling and the NIN to stop using shadows since hey, why do what your job is meant to? ^^)

But one suggestion I have... Use your buffs/support BETWEEN or RIGHT AFTER battles. It's a perfect time to blink everyone and rest... Then use your next BP for the magic burst. Work the most time out of your BP as possible ^^

[Nyru]

Re: Melee vs Support

Use your buffs/support BETWEEN or RIGHT AFTER battles

I have been doing this when I can. If I don't have the MP, or I see TP macros showing I have a MB coming up first thing, then I save it.

I do back-up cure (once a mage, always a mage), and dismiss my avatar if the fight gets ugly to save my MP for curing. I have found my Poisona useful in Crawler's Nest (suprising what you see when you are just standing there) and I have no expectations to do otherwise.

I just know when ptying with my RDM in some higher lvls, I have seen many SMN only summon to do a support BP, then dismiss. Use another support BP, then dismiss. I don't want to play it that way I think the avatars have attacks for a reason, and not just for solo play. I want to see them kick butt! But I am new to the job, so what do I know?

Thanks for the imput, and please keep it coming. I know there is plenty of wisdom out there...

[SharMarali]

Re: Melee vs Support

Speaking as one who primarily played SMN from 1 through 69 doing the "support BP, dismiss" method... LOL...

That's the way *I* chose to play SMN because it was what I felt I was best at and how I felt I could best assist my party. Plenty of SMNs play it as DDs, and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you recognize that there are many, many other things that you can do too.

Pay attention to what your avatar is doing, if it's not doing much damage in a particular PT against particular monsters, try a different avatar and if THAT doesn't work, change up your play style. Pay attention to your MP too, and always remember that, like it or not, healing is always going to be one of your jobs, whether it's as a main or a backup.

Pay attention to what your PT needs as well. Once you get Earthen Ward, you can really help out NINs that haven't quite gotten the hang of recasting utsusemi: ichi and speed the PT's overall experience along by keeping it on him when you can. Even though you're not a huge fan of buffing as a SMN, it IS one area where we excel and cannot be completely ignored, even if you want to play as a DD most of the time.

[Tirrock]

Re: Melee vs Support

Honestly, some of the SMN support spells are seriously overrated. I'm not a huge fan of being a buffing/main heal SMN...but I did it because I didn't have a choice. (Lack of magic bursts and double slap was weak then.) I still feel a SMN should be able to main heal and do their other roles in a party though. No matter if their role is support or damage.

Anyway.... You'll likely end up playing just about every role in exp, I'd imagine. Main healer, back up healer, damage dealer that can cast cure if need be, replacement for a RDM or BRD. (Oh, I love those parties... /sarcasim)

I just hope you don't get a party like I did once where I wasn't allowed to summon. At all. Ever. If I did, the tank's computer would crash. ._.

[Shirai]

Re: Melee vs Support

replacement for a RDM or BRD. (Oh, I love those parties... /sarcasim)

You know, those parties aren't that bad if people know what they're doing.
In those kind of parties you can do whatever you want actually,
work out a good strategy on what to do and you'll reap as much as any party would.

I just hope you don't get a party like I did once where I wasn't allowed to summon. At all. Ever. If I did, the tank's computer would crash. ._.

[Nyru]

Re: Melee vs Support

Excellent advice!!! Thank you all

For any of you that have played a DD job, I would like to ask a question from your standpoint:

If I had one BP per mob, which way would you like me to go with it--damage or buff?

Yes, I know that question is overly simplistic, and very situational, but I would love to get an opinion from a different angle other than my own. I have never played a DD job past 20s.

Double Post Edited:

To be frank, SMN isnt a true DD class til 70+, anyone who says different is only fooling themselves and if they really knew the job and how well a SMN DD's at low levels they would see this.

Quoted from Neppy in a different thread.

Does this mean I shouldn't even bother keeping my avatars out during battle?

Or is that an entirely different discussion altogether?

[Neppy]

Re: Melee vs Support

The lvl 70 BP are what makes a SMN a true DD, you can DD to an extent once Ifrit can use double punch but you need to keep him out to build TP for it to do any real DMG and as I experienced against IT mobs it sometimes seemed to be a waste at lower lvls and they miss often, same goes for Double Slap with Shiva and Meteorite with carbuncle, the exception with Carby is that by the time he learns it you have a light staff and possibly carbie mitts which makes him free. Leaving them out for any length of time at lower lvls will eat your MP quick, and if you do any back up healing youll find your mp bar get eaten fast. The problem I have with SMN before 70, and even after 70, only wanting to do a DD job is because between BP's what are u gonna do just sit there for a minute and do nothing? On the rare occasion, and I mean very rare, when I partied and had a whm to main heal, more often then not I did more curing then the whm because he was casting haste, erase, debuffs if no rdm and such. My advise is not to go into a party saying Im only gonna do this and thats that, SMN is a VERY adaptive job, you need to change to what ever is gonna help the party out the most and keep that xp rolling in. If you caste yourself, there are no favors being done. Not even lvl 70+ SMN's acting as DD only DD, they do what ever it takes to keep that xp coming in.

Double Post Edited:
oh, and if you get into a party and they tell you not to summon at all, they are retards and I wouldnt give them the satisfaction of having you in the party. 1) Blinkga and Earthen Ward is a huge help to PLD tanks. 2) NIN tanks loved having stoneskin in case their shadows fell and they were recasting with no shadows up.

[Vyren]

Re: Melee vs Support

It changes in the situation. There are different ways to play SMN, and different ways to think of it.

Firstly, sometimes people will invite you in the place of a WHM, because of the SMN/WHM large MP pool. It's easy to main heal with the MP that SMN get, it's just gimpy because of the lack of spells they get at low levels. (Main healing also includes using BP's for blink/stoneskin/icespikes and things.. and you should have ice spikes by now too.)

Secondly, is the DD. Think of your Avatar as an extension of you, but as another DD in the party. Your avatar melee's for you, just like a SAM or something would, then blood pact is their WS (doing more damage then actual melee I might add!) and you could go that way.

The last is the BLM approach. Letting your Avatar melee still, then using BP's to MB, as you have. It's kind of like being a BLU or a RDM.

ALL THESE THREE should be taken into account when someone asks you to party, because they could want you to do any of them. The most common is main healing, because of such few WHM seeking when you need them.

Hope I helped~

[Nyru]

Re: Melee vs Support

You have all helped tremendously.

I come away with the knowledge that SMN is, in fact, some of everything. I have learned to be adaptable through my experience with RDM, but this new job is a whole new way of playing.

And, as always, communication is the key. Discuss with the pty, see what is working and what is needed, and go from there.

I thank everyone for their imput :D

[Karinya]

Re: Melee vs Support

Well, I don't think that you should go into a party with the mentality that you aren't ever going to do anything other than DD. But then, I don't think BLMs should have that mentality either, even though many of them do.

But you shouldn't believe that you *can't* DD at any given level, either. A lot of the people who say so leveled SMN before the extensive changes to low and mid-level BPs. Thunderspark now out-MBs BLMs until the mid-thirties. (If your party is doing a compatible SC - Distortion is not your friend). You can probably find a physical BP to do 200ish without too much trouble. Some also have useful added effects - Tail Whip, for example, adds Gravity which lowers the target's move speed *and evasion*. I put it on at the beginning of fights a lot until I got Lunar Cry.

As for avatar melee, I generally only used it when I had extra MP late in a chain, to help get those #4 and #5 timers; it's not bad, but not great either. Fenrir is the strongest at it, but costs more MP than Carby. Celestials (Ifrit, Shiva, etc.) are poor at melee and have high perpetuation, so you usually shouldn't use them for sustained melee.

It's important not to be too far below the party's maximum level, though. But that's true for a lot of jobs.

Several SMN buffs are basically useless - their durations are way too short and/or the effects are tiny. You should always not just think "is this useful?" but "is this better than another BP I could do?" Shining Ruby, Frost Armor, Rolling Thunder, Crimson Howl, Lightning Armor and Glittering Ruby usually fail this test. So if you're going to buff, make sure it's with useful buffs.

[Neppy]

Re: Melee vs Support

My apologies if I came off kinda harsh, SMN is soooo versitile that one would be a fool to only use parts of it and not all. Trust me, if you use all aspects of the job in a party you will be surprised how ppl track you down and want to party with you on a regular basis. This has happend to me, sometimes we would have a person trying to tell me how to do the job and the party ldr would basically tell them, "Whats the problem with the SMN, we are getting chain 4 and 5's on a regular, leave the SMN alone!"

[Nyru]

Re: Melee vs Support

I have been leaving my avatar out to melee, but I made a point of mentioning my current lvl doing this because I know as I progress they cannot compete with the upcoming moves and ws the other melee have in store for them. I guess you can say I am enjoying while I can still do the same dmg as the SAM and NIN, lol.

Neppy, harsh? No way. I asked for imput and opinions, and that is exactly what I got. I very much appreciate the honesty.

As far as the "other" BP, I have played around with them a little. I have noticed their lack of effectiveness, but also their duration. I guess after playing RDM, I can't help but laugh at the paultry showing of Ramuh's Enthunder.

As far as people telling me how to play, I am always open to suggestions and/or advice. But I played my other job so long, I also know what works. I have had to get curt with some people and just say "you do your job, and I will do mine." Why complain when we are making good chains? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. That goes with any job, really. Everything I know I have learned from others, but that doesn't mean that others are always right.

Have a great holiday weekend :D