Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

[Tirrock]

Re: Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

I'd just like to point out that I really like this Palom_FF guy. He thinks like I do.

For Credos: Here's a mini-version of what was discussed in the OP's other topic on this forum...

SMN were capable of doing good damage to kited monsters before CoP was even out. Diabolos didn't suddenly make it so SMN could fight kited monsters. He just made it easier. Nether Blast is magical, and all magical avatar moves are a bit ranged. Rock Throw is the only true "ranged" blood pact that I know though. It's physical and can be fired from a distance. >_>a

My opinions: I honestly have no idea how I leveled SMN. I did it before avatar magic bursting (and double slap royally sucked back then). Even after it...I don't know how much I'd want to level it up to 70+ again. Almost all of the merits I've gotten have either been from WHM, because it's easier to level and quite often, more useful. It's much easier to keep my MP pool up as WHM than it is as SMN. (Don't forget, melees do good damage too!) And roaming parties as SMN are just headache enducing.

[Credos]

Re: Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

Tirrock, I'm well aware that SMN were able to hit kited mobs with Avatars before Diabolos. I was merely addressing the statement that he was not a worthwhile avatar.

[Tirrock]

Re: Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

Sorry, I just see a lot of people saying how diabolos is a must have on kited HNM. I see the words "diabolos" and "kite" in the same sentence and I feel compelled to post.

[Greenith]

Re: Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

I quite agree with Karinya

I have lvled my Smn in a static from 20-65 so far.

In our Static we have a Nin/war War/nin War/nin Rdm/Blm Blm/Whm and Smn/Whm


My role has changed several times over the 45 lvls. at lvl 20 i was doing more SCing with the Melees, and occasionaly MB as well. I would also leave my avatars out to melee, and also had enough mp for the next battle to redo it all over again. by the time i was in the 40's i was purely doing SCing, and letting my avatars melee (mainly carby since have carby mitts). Though my damage wasn`t as great as it was in the 20's in 30's.

Of course throughout all the lvls i would assist heal with our RDM, or Duo Heal (where we both do roughly 50%).

Once i reached 47, i started spamming stonekin and some of carby buffs (one that increase stats) but quickly turned to just using Stonekin in between battles, and helping with the SC, so BLM could MB.

I reached 55, and Carby started being quite a DD. I wasn`t able to MB with Carby, sine our weapons didn`t allow Light SC, ore the mob wasn`t weak to Fire (Fire Light SC). But i would start the battle off with Meteorite, (which did pretty good damge, sometimes getting 50% resisted). and after 55 secs, would use it again (plus all the meeling would increase my Tp for Carby, and thus increase the BP)
Meteorite was doing around 400 dmg with some tp, so it was quite good. though if need i would still do SC to help with the MBing also (wither at the beginning or end of the battle)

then 60 hit, and i had access to Tier 4 nukes for avatars. I do believe these nukes are underrated, and they can pretty much take you all the way to 70 with decent DMG.
My strategy would be, summon the avatar at the start of the battle and use a Melee BP straight away (for added tp) then just let the avatar meele even more. By the time my BP was up, the mob HP was around 60%, and that is when the team would start a SCing. At lvl 60 i was doing around 500 dmg - 550 dmg without any tp. BUt once i was lvl 64, and let tp build a little bit, my damage would be around 650. Now if you add that plus the Blm Fire III (whihc was around 500-600 damage) the mob would be pretty much dead (since the sc would take 600-800 dmg off also).

Now at lvl 65, i am loving Fenrir lvl 65 BP, since i do not have to operate on a MB timer. And my total damage is around the 2nd highest in pt, since i don`t get any hate .

Obviously though that kind of damage is a team effort since our rdm keeps me refreshed, and does most of the healing now. our NIn is making lifew easier for the healers, since not many hits. and the BLm also cast debuffs on the mob which helps out great.


I just wanted to share my experience with everyone, and like to add that i have no problem in buffing people and giving out cures. But i do believe we can do DD and cure at the same time (if we have a rdm in pt also, since duo healing). If it is just a BLm and SMn, then that is alot harder, since you don`t want to add any kind of extra hate to the blm in the first place.

I also parsed alot of my exp lvling over time, and at lvl 60-65, seem to be doing around 1000 dmg average per fight

[Atma]

Re: Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

There are two main issues with smn:

1) They are not really capable of doing any "significant" damage till 55... and even then, it's questionable, and
2) All avatars outside of the "main 7" are, quite simply, too hard to obtain. (And before you argue, remember that SE has basically straight up admitted that the fenrir fight is far harder then they had intended it to be, and are simply not fixing it cause "it would upset those that already had it")

I really hate the opinion that SE seems to have about summoner that it is an "endgame" job. The fact that in order to get fenrir and diabolos you need to either 1) suffer through 69 levels of being a "gimp SMN", or 2) level a DIFFERENT job to 70+ is really anathema to me. Summoner needs to be balanced like every other job. My proposals would be:

1) Fix Summoning Magic skill. I think about every smn can get behind this one.
2) Smooth out the damage curve. Double punch should be doing more like 350-400. Double slap should be doing 450-500. Meteor should be doing like 500-550. the 70+ are fine the way they are, although one could easily make the argument these blood pacts are overpowered.

Any new avatars added for ToAU NEED to be obtainable at 60, otherwise they are in no way, shape, or form any sort of fix whatsoever.

[Darkhound]

Re: Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

Summoner is a difficult job, and IMO we are in between, all of us that have leveled it to 75 have had to adjust to different situations, whether it is healing, buffing, and some damange in later levels, it is a rare but fun job and i really respect those who have leveld it!

[Telera]

Re: Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

There are two main issues with smn:

1) They are not really capable of doing any "significant" damage till 55... and even then, it's questionable, and
2) All avatars outside of the "main 7" are, quite simply, too hard to obtain. (And before you argue, remember that SE has basically straight up admitted that the fenrir fight is far harder then they had intended it to be, and are simply not fixing it cause "it would upset those that already had it")

I really hate the opinion that SE seems to have about summoner that it is an "endgame" job. The fact that in order to get fenrir and diabolos you need to either 1) suffer through 69 levels of being a "gimp SMN", or 2) level a DIFFERENT job to 70+ is really anathema to me. Summoner needs to be balanced like every other job. My proposals would be:

1) Fix Summoning Magic skill. I think about every smn can get behind this one.
2) Smooth out the damage curve. Double punch should be doing more like 350-400. Double slap should be doing 450-500. Meteor should be doing like 500-550. the 70+ are fine the way they are, although one could easily make the argument these blood pacts are overpowered.

Any new avatars added for ToAU NEED to be obtainable at 60, otherwise they are in no way, shape, or form any sort of fix whatsoever.

Amen. Just amen.

Summoner is what I always wanted to be when I started this game. So naturally, it's my first job to 75, and I'm essentially screwed as far as Fenrir/Diabolos go unless I find people willing to take me (which is dangerous and unlikely), or be 'gimp' until I can handle the fight as part of a party.

That or level another job to 70 just so I can level the job I would rather be doing, which is a prospect that would likely leave me quitting the game. Anything they add to our Summon list later would be better off obtainable at 60-65. Because those of us new to the job who pick it as a first main... we're just screwed unless we leech majorly.

[tazirai]

Re: Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

Sorry I do agree with Atma on most of what he's saying But i dont think Summoners are Gimp without the doggie. Just my Opinion..

[Greenith]

Re: Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

i believe, that people only think they are gimped, is because between 40-55, damage aint so great, but liek others have said, our strengths just change. If you are duo healing with a RDM, you'll both be great together. For oneyou can help out with SC (then the rdm will be healing) then when the RDM is MBing, you can help with healing. RDM can help more with debuffs, and SMN can help more with Buffs etc etc.

I find if people just rely on smn to do the healing and thats all, then we are gimped. But if we are healing with a RDM, we will shine, since we can still do our BP fine, and receive Refresh on top of that. Plus most likley you wil have another 3 melee jobs, so including the smn, you will have 2 SC a fight. And if the last member is a BLM, it will be perfect for MBing the mobs. Otherwise have 4 melee doing SC, and SMN + RDM doing MB (since when SMN does the actual MB, it only takes 1 sec, so you can cover the rdm, and the rdm can cover you summoning an avatar.

The only real drawback is avatars Missing BP, but after lvl 52 (i believe) you will have a little help from AF1.


Anyhow here is some good examples of pt situations, and what the smn should do

1 tank (nin) 3 melee, RDM, SMN = Smn MBing and Buffing team, plus healing
1 tank (nin) 2 melee, RDM, SMN BLM = Smning SCing, and buffing team plus healing
1 tank (PLD) etc etc = MBing or SCING, but using the BP from Diablos, for Phalanx
some pt setup + WHM= same Deal as before, except wont get benefits from RDM


I highly recomend having a RDM in PT though, since we can work well together (asuming decent rdm and smn).

Other situations could include having a BRD or COR, in which case, you will need to concentrate on healing a bit more, but if having a Brd/whm, then can help heal when summoning an avatar. While with Cor, you might get away having another RDM anyway, since they can be a melee DD (i assume)

[Darkhound]

Re: Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

I agree with Tazirai.... and after reading one of her posts about summoner and playing with carby, I must admit that her proposal is VERY amaizng and I have learned to use it myself. When i get to be the main healer i use carby and i have alot alot of fun! It has given me a new way and perspective to play summoner!

[Greenith]

Re: Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

i reckon just leaving out carby would be quite fun, esp since he is free, and a kind of favourate avatar ^^.

ill though ill just add this, but another tactic i used for awhile (if you have mp to spare) is to summon a spirit before the puller gets back, then as the puller gets back (assuming he didn`t get much hate back) dia the mob, (or if puller did get hate cast cure on puller). Anyway just try to get hate for a split second and your spirit would cast a spell in half the time it normally would (and the timer would start as soon as you summoned the spirit not when the you got agroed ^^)

this tactic is good if your pt wants you to DD mainly, and you are between the 40-55 lvl range. If you have a rdm/blm, or blm, try and get them to cast the spells that the spirit can cast also (the debuffs enfeeb etc) so that all the spirit can use is the DD spells. Otherwise, if you dont have a rdm or blm in ot, least the mob will get some decent enfeebs on it too lol

[Atma]

Re: Another Reason To Avoid Summoner?

Sorry I do agree with Atma on most of what he's saying But i dont think Summoners are Gimp without the doggie. Just my Opinion..

I don't think they are either Tazirai... I should have clarified, I'm referring more to the perception held by other players that you are a "gimp".