Sub for WHM

[Lythinari]

Re: Sub for WHM

99%?
Refresh, extra clear mind boosts are always on, if anything a SMN sub is on at least 50% off the subjob traits are used.
When you sub summoner it isnt the spells you can cast, its the number traits you gain from subbing it.
While your resting, while your standing, pt moving your using the subjob, just cause I dont use garuda's aerial armor to buff my party every 1min, or carbuncles shining ruby to boost defence doesnt mean It is almost, clos eto 100% not even used.

Saying that, with a BLM sub, of all the things you can get /blm you can use almsot everything blm subjob has to offer, but being resisted is a different story.

After using all your MP, you can top all your MP faster than a blm sub, not only is it the refresh doing it, but also your clear mind boosts.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Sub for WHM

99%?
Refresh, extra clear mind boosts are always on, if anything a SMN sub is on at least 50% off the subjob traits are used.
When you sub summoner it isnt the spells you can cast, its the number traits you gain from subbing it.
While your resting, while your standing, pt moving your using the subjob, just cause I dont use garuda's aerial armor to buff my party every 1min, or carbuncles shining ruby to boost defence doesnt mean It is almost, clos eto 100% not even used.

Again your taking what I'm saying out of context. The point I'm making, and you know it, is that the majority of /smn's do not bother using the benefit of their avatars. It's like a /blm not bothering with any of the beneficial spells. If your not using the spells with /blm or the smns with /smn then your not living up to your potential and thus hurting your pt. The majority of whm/smn's I have pt'd with (99%) do not utilize all of the benefits of their sub compared to the 25% of the /blm's.

[Icemage]

Re: Sub for WHM

One extremely good point is that /smn gives you extra clear mind - gives you more MP while you are resting I believe.

Completely incorrect. /SMN gives no additional Clear Mind over any other subjob, since WHM already has the traits at or above what the /SMN sub gives at every level.

If you wanted to go really radical, you could melee as WHM at a high level with /sam sub and use meditate to refresh your mp =P
quite useful actually.

...

You think SAM is a wierd option to choose for a sub for a mage job?
ever thought of using that sub and putting it into spirit taker or havnt any of you mages leveled staff skill yet?
By far, spirit taker gives more MP over all than what moonlight or starlight would give to the wielder.



From VT's and lower, spirit taker hit for 100+
Thats 4 hits with staff, and you can meditate MP.

Uh.. no. You might get 100 on a good day with a VT enemy or are wearing ATK gears and eating ATK foods. More likely 50-60, assuming you hit at all, unless its something weak to crushing damage like a skeleton.

Meditate gives 60TP when subbed, which means you need 4 hits of a staff every 3 minutes to make use of it. This isn't hard to do, but um... you can't rest or you lose your TP. Not to mention the fact that Spirit Taker can and does miss. Quite a lot. Especially on stuff higher level than you, but even on too weaks it misses depressingly often.

I find it hard to believe your claim that you belong to an HNMLS if you can make a comment like this with a straight face.

Saying that, with a BLM sub, of all the things you can get /blm you can use almsot everything blm subjob has to offer, but being resisted is a different story.

Elemental Seal. What resistance? I can reliably put any monster that can be slept to sleep with Elemental Seal + Sleep in Lumoria when I'm running around zones full of nasty VT+ aggressives. What would I do with a /SMN sub? Sit there and die, that's what. /SMN has its place, but /BLM is good for its own reasons, one of which is being able to force Sleep on something that you just can't handle (and subsequently warp/teleport/escape from).

After using all your MP, you can top all your MP faster than a blm sub, not only is it the refresh doing it, but also your clear mind boosts.

Again, do you really belong to an HNMLS? Let me clue you in:

Summoner get:
Clear Mind I at level 15. WHM/SMN gets this at WHM30/SMN15.
Clear Mind II at level 30. WHM/SMN gets this at WHM60/SMN30.

BLM get:
Clear Mind I at level 15. WHM/BLM gets this at WHM30/BLM15.
Clear Mind II at level 30. WHM/BLM gets this at WHM60/BLM30.

WHM get:
Clear Mind I at level 20. WHM/anything gets this before either sub will kick in, and so they gain nothing from the trait since it doesn't stack.
Clear Mind II at level 35. WHM/anything again gets this long before either sub will kick in, so again, NO GAIN since it doesn't stack.

{Clue}{Do you need it?}

Honestly, I am so tired of clueless 75s who haven't got the foggiest idea how to play their jobs, or what their subjobs actually do. Kindly stop posting erroneous opinions until you've learned how to research what you post.


Icemage

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Sub for WHM

Completely incorrect. /SMN gives no additional Clear Mind over any other subjob, since WHM already has the traits at or above what the /SMN sub gives at every level.



Uh.. no. You might get 100 on a good day with a VT enemy or are wearing ATK gears and eating ATK foods. More likely 50-60, assuming you hit at all, unless its something weak to crushing damage like a skeleton.

Meditate gives 60TP when subbed, which means you need 4 hits of a staff every 3 minutes to make use of it. This isn't hard to do, but um... you can't rest or you lose your TP. Not to mention the fact that Spirit Taker can and does miss. Quite a lot. Especially on stuff higher level than you, but even on too weaks it misses depressingly often.

I find it hard to believe your claim that you belong to an HNMLS if you can make a comment like this with a straight face.



Elemental Seal. What resistance? I can reliably put any monster that can be slept to sleep with Elemental Seal + Sleep in Lumoria when I'm running around zones full of nasty VT+ aggressives. What would I do with a /SMN sub? Sit there and die, that's what. /SMN has its place, but /BLM is good for its own reasons, one of which is being able to force Sleep on something that you just can't handle (and subsequently warp/teleport/escape from).



Again, do you really belong to an HNMLS? Let me clue you in:

Summoner get:
Clear Mind I at level 15. WHM/SMN gets this at WHM30/SMN15.
Clear Mind II at level 30. WHM/SMN gets this at WHM60/SMN30.

BLM get:
Clear Mind I at level 15. WHM/BLM gets this at WHM30/BLM15.
Clear Mind II at level 30. WHM/BLM gets this at WHM60/BLM30.

WHM get:
Clear Mind I at level 20. WHM/anything gets this before either sub will kick in, and so they gain nothing from the trait since it doesn't stack.
Clear Mind II at level 35. WHM/anything again gets this long before either sub will kick in, so again, NO GAIN since it doesn't stack.

{Clue}{Do you need it?}

Honestly, I am so tired of clueless 75s who haven't got the foggiest idea how to play their jobs, or what their subjobs actually do. Kindly stop posting erroneous opinions until you've learned how to research what you post.


Icemage

Thank you ^^

/bow

[Yossar]

Re: Sub for WHM

Completely incorrect. /SMN gives no additional Clear Mind over any other subjob, since WHM already has the traits at or above what the /SMN sub gives at every level.



Uh.. no. You might get 100 on a good day with a VT enemy or are wearing ATK gears and eating ATK foods. More likely 50-60, assuming you hit at all, unless its something weak to crushing damage like a skeleton.

Meditate gives 60TP when subbed, which means you need 4 hits of a staff every 3 minutes to make use of it. This isn't hard to do, but um... you can't rest or you lose your TP. Not to mention the fact that Spirit Taker can and does miss. Quite a lot. Especially on stuff higher level than you, but even on too weaks it misses depressingly often.

I find it hard to believe your claim that you belong to an HNMLS if you can make a comment like this with a straight face.



Elemental Seal. What resistance? I can reliably put any monster that can be slept to sleep with Elemental Seal + Sleep in Lumoria when I'm running around zones full of nasty VT+ aggressives. What would I do with a /SMN sub? Sit there and die, that's what. /SMN has its place, but /BLM is good for its own reasons, one of which is being able to force Sleep on something that you just can't handle (and subsequently warp/teleport/escape from).



Again, do you really belong to an HNMLS? Let me clue you in:

Summoner get:
Clear Mind I at level 15. WHM/SMN gets this at WHM30/SMN15.
Clear Mind II at level 30. WHM/SMN gets this at WHM60/SMN30.

BLM get:
Clear Mind I at level 15. WHM/BLM gets this at WHM30/BLM15.
Clear Mind II at level 30. WHM/BLM gets this at WHM60/BLM30.

WHM get:
Clear Mind I at level 20. WHM/anything gets this before either sub will kick in, and so they gain nothing from the trait since it doesn't stack.
Clear Mind II at level 35. WHM/anything again gets this long before either sub will kick in, so again, NO GAIN since it doesn't stack.

{Clue}{Do you need it?}

Honestly, I am so tired of clueless 75s who haven't got the foggiest idea how to play their jobs, or what their subjobs actually do. Kindly stop posting erroneous opinions until you've learned how to research what you post.


Icemage

Can't argue with that. :D

[Kiros]

Re: Sub for WHM

lol, i think the bottom line there is SMN/WHM makes a better combo than WHM/SMN =DDDD

[Karinya]

Re: Sub for WHM

Well, SMN/WHM is significantly better at using SMN abilities, and significantly worse at using WHM abilities than WHM/SMN. What did you expect?

[Lythinari]

Re: Sub for WHM

Fair enough.

[Sin_]

Re: Sub for WHM

lol, i think the bottom line there is SMN/WHM makes a better combo than WHM/SMN =DDDD

Thats because SMN gets a pretty good MP boost from subbing White Mage not to mention they have the very useful healing abilities. But when you say White Mage you think "a healer" so not too much use for summons since Cabuncles Healing abilities hardly makes up for the MP loss it takes to summon him, when you could just do about as much if not more with a Cure III.

[xiozen]

Re: Sub for WHM

Sin said: "Thats because SMN gets a pretty good MP boost from subbing White Mage not to mention they have the very useful healing abilities. But when you say White Mage you think "a healer" so not too much use for summons since Cabuncles Healing abilities hardly makes up for the MP loss it takes to summon him, when you could just do about as much if not more with a Cure III."

Good point!^^

[SharMarali]

Re: Sub for WHM

OK I don't have the faintest clue why people need to be so confrontational in a DISCUSSION of what SJ works better, etc. You're not helping the original poster by trying to tear each otehr down and prove who knows more about the game than who. SO KNOCK IT OFF. Thank you.

That said. After level 50, BLM and SMN are both perfectly valid choices for WHM SJ. Prior to level 50, I don't feel that there is any benefit whatsoever from subbing SMN, save for a few additional MP. From 40-49, BLM clearly wins because of conserve MP. After 50, I feel it's largely a matter of personal preference when it comes to a normal level up PT. Odds are, you're not going to be utilizing black magic, and you probably won't use aerial armor very much either because it's an ENORMOUS strain on your MP as a level 50 WHM. Plus it doesn't overwrite utsusemi, which, on average, 2 of your PT members will probably have.

I personally use /BLM when I level my WHM. Why? One reason is because I don't want to be asked to use aerial armor all the time when I know exactly what that will do to my MP. Another reason is that, honestly, a lot of the /SMN mages I've PTed with in the past have tended to be um.. Not that bright. I am BY NO MEANS stating that all /SMN mages are morons. I'm just saying that a disproportionate number of the ones I, personally, have PTed with, have really needed to get a clue. Since I have come to associate /SMN with being "iffy" in terms of knowing how to play their job, I prefer not to use it myself. This might not be the world's best reason for choosing one SJ over another, but I'm being honest here and telling you that it's ONE of my reasons. In addiiton, I'm not at the level of having escape yet, but I will be soon and I want to be able to bail my PT out of a bad situation when I reach that point.

There seems to be a perception that at level 50, you should immediately swap to /SMN and no one can really explain why, other than to say "autorefresh." Autorefresh is nice, but so is conserve MP, and I've seen no CLEAR and IRREFUTABLE evidence that /SMN is superior to /BLM.

One last note, RDM/SMN is useful only in rare situations. I've seen a LOT of RDMs using /SMN and it makes me want to laugh and cry all at the same time. WHMs are enhanced only slightly by /BLM, but RDMs are enhanced a TON by /BLM or /WHM.

With /BLM, RDM gets additional BLM only enfeebles such as frost, raspe, choke... And they have the elemental skill to be able to land them. RDM gets chainspell+escape. RDM gets additional INT for landing gravity & blind, plus additional magic atk power for MBs, if the RDM chooses to MB.

With /WHM, RDM gets -na spells and eventually, erase. RDM gets additional MND for landing para & slow, arguably the most important enfeebles. RDM eventually gets teleportation capabilities to the 3 nation craigs. RDM gets divine seal, which is a TREMENDOUS help when used with convert.

In contrast, with /SMN, RDM gets a few additional MP, autorefresh, and the ability to use aerial armor. Frankly, RDM doesn't really need the MP or the autorefresh, because in a NORMAL LEVEL UP PT situation, RDMs won't often run out of MP. I DO speak from experience here, having played RDM to 75 prior to beginning SMN. /SMN jobs don't use aerial armor often, for reasons previously stated in thsi post.

So RDM gains a bit from /SMN, but by and large it's not as helpful to the group or even to themselves as /BLM or /WHM. Personally when I'm whoring my RDM for merit points, I use /WHM unless asked to use something else.

In conclusion... Please think about WHY you want to use job X as a SJ before you use it. Don't just do it because your buddy does it. Think about what you gain from it and what you lose from it. Think for yourself, don't just do it because it's popular.

[Karinya]

Re: Sub for WHM

As for RDM subs, I static with a WHM and RDM/WHM (it's all he has leveled IIRC), so I normally sub BLM. But in Dynamis, I am often RDM/WHM because curagas and barfira are so crucial there. (Usually I am the only healer in a 5 DD party. In a tank party I would probably sub BLM because the party has one or more full WHMs already.)

RDM/SMN was analyzed in an old post on the RDM forums, which demonstrated that if you cast enough spells, you save more MP from Conserve MP from RDM/BLM to make up for auto-refresh AND the increased MP every convert. WHM don't even convert so it is even more in favor of /BLM for them, unless you actually use Aerial Armor frequently and save more MP in heals than it costs you to use it (you probably will, if you use it at all).

It should be noted that the higher level you get, and therefore the more expensive your spells are, the more MP you save from Conserve MP. Auto Refresh does not scale. Furthermore, Auto Refresh stacks additively with item, RDM or BRD refreshes and clear mind like bonuses (dark staff, errant houppelande, certain foods), while Conserve MP stacks multiplicatively (if each 100 MP of spells you cast only costs you X MP, the effectiveness of other sources of MP is increased by a factor of 100/X.)

On the other hand, the hits absorbed by Aerial Armor become larger and larger while its MP cost remains nearly fixed, so frequent AA use saves you more and more MP at higher levels, provided that the shadows are actually being used, which depends a lot on party composition and monsters being fought.

Regarding the duplication between AA and Utsusemi - Party members subbing NIN can often do more damage with another sub such as WAR, but don't want to give up utsusemi for pulling, etc. AA before each pull could allow them to pull without NIN sub but still be just as safe as if they had it, while still dealing more damage through Attack Bonus, Double Attack and Berserk. However, this may be difficult to do in a pickup party because of the degree of coordination and trust involved (and some RNG or THF in particular may not even have other subjobs leveled because /NIN is so popular).


In summary:
1-39: It doesn't matter that much what you sub as long as it's half your main job level and is a job with MP. If WHM is your first job you won't even have SMN yet for most of this range - don't sweat it.
40-49: /BLM is almost always the most beneficial subjob in this level range.
50-57: Both /BLM and /SMN have their benefits. If you are not going to use Aerial Armor, /BLM is often still better.
58+: As above, but /BLM now also provides escape. This may or may not be important depending on who else is in pt and where you fight.

WHM/BLM is always good. WHM/SMN is sometimes about as good and arguably sometimes better.

[Icemage]

Re: Sub for WHM

WHM don't even convert so it is even more in favor of /BLM for them, unless you actually use Aerial Armor frequently and save more MP in heals than it costs you to use it (you probably will, if you use it at all).

This is untrue. WHM get less benefit from Conserve MP than RDMs since they can NOT convert, and therefore spend less MP over time. However, a WHM with Refresh or double Ballads running will get more benefit from Conserve MP than a WHM with Auto-Refresh - this is a point that is quite often missed by people who champion WHM/SMN.

It should be noted that the higher level you get, and therefore the more expensive your spells are, the more MP you save from Conserve MP.

This isn't specifically true. Conserve MP kicks in the same amount at any level (unless you're wearing +Conserve MP gear like Water Ring), so whether you cast 10 spells that cost 10 MP each or 1 spell that costs 100 MP, you're going to get the same savings on average.

Auto Refresh does not scale. Furthermore, Auto Refresh stacks additively with item, RDM or BRD refreshes and clear mind like bonuses (dark staff, errant houppelande, certain foods), while Conserve MP stacks multiplicatively (if each 100 MP of spells you cast only costs you X MP, the effectiveness of other sources of MP is increased by a factor of 100/X.)

Yes. See my notes above.

In summary:
1-39: It doesn't matter that much what you sub as long as it's half your main job level and is a job with MP. If WHM is your first job you won't even have SMN yet for most of this range - don't sweat it.
40-49: /BLM is almost always the most beneficial subjob in this level range.
50-57: Both /BLM and /SMN have their benefits. If you are not going to use Aerial Armor, /BLM is often still better.
58+: As above, but /BLM now also provides escape. This may or may not be important depending on who else is in pt and where you fight.

WHM/BLM is always good. WHM/SMN is sometimes about as good and arguably sometimes better.

1-39 subs don't make much impact, though /RDM gives access to Parry without any significant loss of other abilities or spells, and still gives access to Bind, which can be handy. /BLM also gets Elemental Seal in this range.

40-49: /BLM definitely the clear winner here.

50-57: I still think for Taru and well-equipped Hume/Mithra WHMs who can safely sacrifice the extra MP from their subjob, /BRD is superior to all other subs in most cases in the post-50 range for XP parties when played properly.

58+: /BLM gets Escape, which can change the tactical landscape. Otherwise same as 50-57.

I honestly don't like WHM/SMN much, if at all, for XP parties. It's really only useful for XP when there's no source of consistent Refresh available, and how often does that happen in decent parties post-41? Auto-refresh isn't as powerful as people seem to think; just ask anyone who owns a Vermillion Cloak or other item with Auto-refresh.

For end-game activities, you pick your sub based on what you're planning to do.


Icemage

[Karinya]

Re: Sub for WHM

Hm, I didn't give much thought to WHM/BRD. I've honestly never seen it, even from people that I know are bards leveling up their WHM. In parties with no BRD (which is most of them) it might be useful, *if* keeping up other mages' MP is at least as important as keeping up yours. Otherwise it may be worse than auto-refresh, and it may be the person with the extra MP that should be subbing BRD, while you sub either BLM or SMN. Then you can get ballad + conserve MP and rest while they sing. Assuming, in turn, that that wouldn't gimp their emergency usefulness too much by depriving them of heals.

You shouldn't make BRD your only leveled sub though, as it is much less useful if there is a real BRD in party. BLM doesn't have this problem - it is at least good and useful, no matter who else you are with or what you are fighting.


Conserve MP may be, as you point out, a bit less useful to a WHM than to a RDM (since they don't convert, their average MP spent per 10 minutes is probably less than a RDM's - although on the other hand they get to rest a *lot* more, so maybe it isn't. Does anyone have any actual data on total base MP cost of spells cast by a WHM and RDM over the same time period?)

But Max MP is *much* less useful to a WHM than to a RDM - it's not quite a dead stat, but not far from it, from a perspective of how many MP worth of spells you can cast every 10 minutes in a sustained-killing environment (i.e. the only downtime is that forced by resting). That's why I think /BLM vs /SMN is even more in favor of /BLM for WHMs than it is for RDMs. +50 max MP to a RDM is +50 usable MP every 10 minutes. +50 max MP to a WHM is +50 usable MP once at the start of the party - any other time they still have to take time resting for it. (The same reasoning on the weakness of max MP applies to BLMs, which is why mine is an INT stacker, even though the returns on INT are not fantastic; once you've got all the Magic Attack Bonus and Elemental Skill available at your level, INT seems to do more than anything else you can get.)

10 spells at 10 MP and 1 spell at 100 MP may be the same, but 10 spells at 100 MP are not. That's my point about Conserve MP at higher levels - as your total MP usage per unit time increases, so does your benefit from Conserve MP, but *not* your benefits from Auto Refresh (or Ballad).

[Omniblast]

Re: Sub for WHM

Uh.. no. You might get 100 on a good day with a VT enemy or are wearing ATK gears and eating ATK foods. More likely 50-60, assuming you hit at all, unless its something weak to crushing damage like a skeleton.

My smn 66 thief sub 33 can get 160-200 mp off decent challenge spiders in the boyada tree.

With WHM sub I only get 70-100.

So for everyone that's bitching and complaining about what sub to use, why don't you just level all subs? Then try for yourself to see what works best and what doesn't?

If your bitching about not wanting to level a job you won't ever use, you'll be eating those words. I have a lot of subs that I like to use, and even more I want to level up with in the future, when I have time. For now I just want to get to 71 to wear my af2 :D

And if your complaining that your wasting time, I suggest you shut off your computer, go outside and live. FFXI is a time sink.