Summoning Magic Skill

[Medalink]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

I have to agree with you on that, Blood Pacts and the whole idea of Summoners is to be linked or one with your Avatar. I think the stats are intertwined at least somewhat into our Avatars. Theres not alot of proof for this but I think it may be true. I Curently Run MND +10 and INT +10 w/out food. Not sure tho what effects it has. It is becomeing more clear now that Summoning Magic Skill in alot of ways is unknown, thats really cool tho as the games been out for awhile and theres so much we dont know *_* Probably why I love it so much. One thing I do know, SE doe snot make useless stats. I would have to say it effects something, and for that simple reason I will keep it caped. Anything else is iceing on the cake.

Medalink

[kuu]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

Conclusive or not, Metalink having a decently undercap SMN skill to test has show some interesting results, with very satistical trials. Unless there is satistical error, it is near impossible to not rule out the powers of SMN skills.

As written a sample of 40 easy prey goblins(only 2 varible levels outside ronberry I believe 12xp and 18 xp), all on the same day, with the same avatars, with constant results.

The only thing one can claim are moon phases, but it is not likely as the result are too linear. If there were more variation, you could call it inconclusive, but right now, it's a well done test, and worth merit.

Choose to believe or or not, but make use of it as you will. Like I myself tested and have gone with capping my smn skill every so often, ever since because I believe it to help avatar powers.

And no your smn skill will never catch up with you until lvl75 without training. It is a very rare skilled up skill like healing because it's fairly level independent. I.E, you can not cast it at an IT monster and hope for more skilling up.

Even my lvl 75 whm after so many years is still on 230ish healing magic, and that's like 40lvls under.

As for the stats theory, it is possible, but probably not quite simple. Tests have been done on such a topic. I have read a couple of people that tried casting titan one a galka and another a taru, and seeing how much hp their avatars had, and was proved inconclusive or false.

[Medalink]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

Another thing I forgot to mention in my above results, (I wrote down 6 full pages of scribbled notes, and just read this and rememberd) Is that carby ran faster the more my lvl skilled up. Normally around 60 or so carby allways stays kinda far behind me. The father I lvl'ed it up the closer he stayed with me, Normally I like to run off and leave him just to mess around, but as I grew in lvls he seem to stay right with me. This is actually quite nice, as before if I started to run away from the mob and Carby lost hate, carby would have a hard time catching the mob to hit it and claim hate, now carby chases the mob closer and stay with him conistantly hitting him. Tonight I will finish testing my Magic stuff.

Medalink

[Kalel]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

I dont know about you all I can never get my summoning skill capped. Plus with all party invites for being healer you dont get to skill up on smn skills in parties much. I am 45 skills below cap and that is ridicious. It nearly takes 2-3 hours of constant smning and lucky if I get 1-2 skill ups. Ugh that sucks.

[SlizenDize]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

Let me make it simple for you, it doesn't matter what Summoning Magic really does and heres why.
First of all no one will ever care what your Summoning Magic is in a player party.
However I can see why you want to be as efficient as possible, well listen to this.
If you would take all the time it needs to cap Summoning Magic after each level up and add that to farming time instead you would be able to buy items actually enhancing the avatars much more noticable than the Summoning Magic also note that once you reach level 75 and do HNM, Gods, Dynamis etc... Your Summoning Magic will actually cap. Yes you do not have to work a single second with it unless you want because in the end it caps out anyway.

That's what I did and it work great Just a tip

[Balodoth]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

I know some melee who subscribe to your line of thought, SlizenDize. Nobody invites them to party. After all, why bother buying great armor when you're just going to sell it 5 levels later and have to go out farming to finance the next, more expensive set? After all, you'll get all the greatest gear once you hit 75 sooner or later.

In fact, I know kids whose logic is as impeccable and undeniable as yours. Why take a bath? I'm just going to get dirty again.

The answer to that question (the gear and summoning skill one--the bath question was merely satire) is that people want to be as effective as possible at every level, not just the final one. More importantly, the rest of the team, the people it is your responsibility to support to the best of your ability, expect you to perform to your maximum potential because they do too. I am honestly ashamed that you would take advantage of your party members by neglecting a skill they can't /check. It only asks for time, not for farming or NM hunting that may or may not pay off, and not for absolute proficiency.

If somebody just tries to have good gear, a party will invite them. It's when they show they have no regard at all for their team members by not wearing even one good piece of armor that they are passed over. Likewise, if somebody even tries to keep within 5% of their cap, I'll respect them for trying.

As for Medalink's test, it is all but conclusive. There are a lot of variables, but I think the amount of gob's tested against gave a good overall view of how it works. My only real concern is on skill ups during the tests affecting results--especially at the beginning when dual casts were required. Otherwise it seems pretty definitive: notice how carby's damage range averaged 4, 3, and 4 on each run; showing us that its attack allowed for several low hits on the first run, its attack roughly equalled the enemy's defense for more consistent hits on the second run, and actually started to expand the delta for a larger damage range on the third run. In addition, generic equations shows the damage on the third run is 40% higher than on the first and that Carby lost 40% less health. When you consider that 40% more damage output only decreases fight time by 29%, that means Carby was more resilient, not just taking less hits.

Now if we could just get some solid tests on BP.

[kuu]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

Yea..it's players like that, that makes me want to hair pull.

You don't have to be the best you can be, but have some pride. It's a Party, not a free ride. The "I'm only here to heal" excuse is the same as the rdm "I'm only here to refresh" excuse, and the "I'm only here to DD" excuse. All are bad excuses, and no one is going to feel sad when they dump you.

I really wouldn't want to give xp to people like that because they remotely help you. Would you want to xp with a warror with rusty daggers, because "I only spam provoke"? He can potentionally get to lvl 75 too.

[Enialas]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

Let me make it simple for you, it doesn't matter what Summoning Magic really does and heres why.
First of all no one will ever care what your Summoning Magic is in a player party.
However I can see why you want to be as efficient as possible, well listen to this.
If you would take all the time it needs to cap Summoning Magic after each level up and add that to farming time instead you would be able to buy items actually enhancing the avatars much more noticable than the Summoning Magic also note that once you reach level 75 and do HNM, Gods, Dynamis etc... Your Summoning Magic will actually cap. Yes you do not have to work a single second with it unless you want because in the end it caps out anyway.

That's what I did and it work great Just a tip

WOW, really... I guess Carby (or other Avatar) being to take more than one hit or being able to hit mob for more than 0 damage just isn't worth it to you? Like everyone Else running around in what they wore in the dunes.

how would you like it if a WHM who never spamed Cures or Enhancement Magic outside of xp pts and cast a Protect III that lasted for 50 sec or a Cure IV that did 100 hp? or a RDM not casting Refresh on you b/c you already have Auto-Refresh, you'll get to full mps eventually so you obviously don't need it.

since you probably leveled WHM, BLM or RDM to 30 before taking SMN, probably WHM since it's preferred sub, meaning you don't have to spend 1 Gil for equipment up till 30, (elements are optional) all getting that 1 skill up takes is time. You probably expect your tank to switch to Lizard gear immediatly upon reaching 17, they took time, one way or another to get that gear, if you're worth the time to do that, why can you not take the time and show them the same respect and caring about being the best you can be?

I feel bad if I'm not finishing refresh when the "<ptmember> refresh effect wears off." or I miss a MB b/c I have to Convert or Dispel. well, this game definately takes all kinds. If i ever pt w/ someone like you and find out how they just don't give a %@&* about anything but thier own laziness. I don't pt w/ them anymore.

and regarding my 3 level gimped sub, well I won't do G3 till i get it caught up, when I cap I won't xp anymore till then. I don't turn on my flag and half the time i'm /anon so I get pts based on request and leader always knows my <job>. personally those 3 levels don't make much of a difference while Pl'ing or farming. heck I Convert/Cure IV while PLing to GET hate, not because I need 2 more mps.

[Medalink]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

Just an update I have been testing BP's from Summoning Skill 70 - 110 Thus far, I am allmost done with all my results and will post soon.

And as a regard to SlizenDize its not a matter of anything other than me wanting to know, I asked on here first before actually trying to find out since it will take so much time, thinking someone allready knows, but aperantly no one has spent countless hours testing the effects. I am doing this for future knowledge. Not beacuse I dont have to. I can say with my results thus far I will from now on ask ALL smns there skill lvl before inviteing as I have found this plays a vital role in your Avatars. As with a low lvl skill your avatars are very weak, and with caped are (depending on the lvl) up to 10x stronger. No gear I know of has an effect of but not limited to some of the following:

All stats +40
HP +400
Spell Interuption -20
Physical Damage aken -40%
and so on and on...

With my tests thus far Summoning Magic Skill Affects everything to do with your Avatar. Anyway I will post my results soon. I am allmost to cap and want to test this more with a full caped Skill. I can say tho, the tests have provided amazing results.

Medalink

[Tirrock]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

All avatars/spirits have -50% physical damage taken. 0 summoning magic skill to 265.

At level 75, an avatar's HP reaches about 1100-1200HP. I'm honestly unsure if summoning magic skill has any impact on this or not. It's simple enough to test, if any of you want to:
xxx/37SMN + xxx/37SMN vs Cactaur.
/SMN #1 has capped summoning magic skill. /SMN #2 has very gimped summoning magic skill.
Go fight a cactaur, have a non-carbuncle (he auto-regens) avatar out. Then get the cactaur to use 1000 needles. A level 37 avatar can survive 1000 needles with 3 other people (other /SMN, yourself, and the other avatar) around. Make sure that neither avatar was hit by the cactuar before 1000 needles, so it doesn't mess the tests up. (Just keep hate on the cactaur. Easy as that.)
Once it does 1000 needles, use <pethpp>. If there's any difference in the % between both players, then summoning magic skill does effect HP.

Same could be done with two SMN main at higher levels...so long as they take a tank with them to ensure the avatars are at 100%HP when 1000 needles goes off.

For summoning magic effecting avatar attack/accuracy... Some (okay, many) people overrate this. Simple fact is that if it does have any impact at all, it's tiny. SlizenDize's post was one of the best posts yet. He's right. There's really no point in keeping your summoning magic skill capped because nobody can tell the difference...because the difference is so tiny, it's very existance is up for debate.

I've gained about 60 or 70 levels of summoning magic skill since hitting 75. My damage has remained mostly the same. It's hard to tell if any damage increases are because of the +avatar attack merits or if it's from the skill who's use is debatable though...

I don't have proof either way if summoning magic skill effects avatar attack/accuracy. I didn't screenshot/parse log all my fights from the last several months. However, just about every single level 75 summoner (with a brain) will tell you that it has no major impact (if any, depending on who you ask) though. It is -nothing- like the difference between having 250 skill in a weapon vs 180 skill.

Also, if you think about it... Summoning magic skill wouldn't help your party as much as actually main healing in a party. Avatar melee sucks on ITs, regardless of your summoning magic skill. All it does is give the monster TP and drain your MP, just so you can do a slightly more damage level II/IV/meteorite/astral flow. And I'm really getting tired of these "damage dealer only" summoners.

I love all the posts attacking SlizenDize too. How many of you that attacked him have SMN at endgame? I see a DRG and a RDM...and Kuu. Now, Kuu very well could have SMN at level 70+. However, he's proven many times over that his opinion shouldn't be counted, specifically in things about summoners.

All the guy did was say what every endgame summoner does anyway. He was just trying to save you time. If it were such a drastic difference between having summoning magic skill leveled or not, everybody, myself included, would flat out say "yes, it's important, try to keep it capped, it's well worth it". But, like I said, what it does is up for debate, which shows that whatever it does, it's very slight...if anything at all.

As for SharMarali's post... I personally disagree that players and avatars have any connection other than the summoner's level. From the sound of your post, you probably just had a partial miss. And, if you didn't have a miss (and you're sure of it), then the damage difference could easily be answered by how there's a good 200-300 damage difference on blood pacts (single hit blood pacts even) on the same exact monsters, same exact days, and they don't have defense buffs...
Leviathan can do 350-650 damage blood pacts on the same kirin, then crit for 800-1000. Since it's a one hit blood pact, it's not like it's multiple hits critical hitting on the ones near 1k damage.

[Alontier]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

Snippet from "The FFXI Summoners Handbook" at Allakhazam regarding Summoning skill.

Summoning Magic Skill and Spirit Magic.

Personal aside: Someone should really give me a cookie for this whole Spirit section. I spent nearly a million gil and 3 weeks of my life figuring these bastards out once and for all. If you want to disagree with this I'm going to smack you with my giant notebook full of spirit casting data. The notebook > j00.

Well folks, this is it. The great, grand mystery of Summoning Magic Skill lies here, cracked open before you. A few people around already have an inkling about what I'm going to describe, but this isn't taken from any previous topics. I went looking for confirmation and mechanical details of the theories that have been posted, and this is what I found out.

Spirit Casting Timer - This was the most interesting piece of data I discovered. While the chosen spell of a Spirit is somewhat random, the moments that it decides to cast them are not. A Spirit has a casting timer! The moment that you summon a spirit, this timer begins counting down. When the countdown finishes, the Spirit is ready to cast its semi-random spell.

Properties of the Spirit Casting Timer:

1: The timers length is directly affected by your Summoning Magic Skill.

2: The base timer length at zero Summoning Magic Skill is 75 seconds.

3: For a rough estimate of your timer, divide your Summoning Magic Skill by 3, and subtract that number from 75. This is about how many seconds it will take before a Spirit casts it's spell. (not exact - my skill is 158 and my casting time is 25 seconds)

4: The higher your Summoning Magic Skill is relative to a mobs level, the more likely that a spirit will cast it's more powerful spells. (Basically - if your Magic skill is at a level where it would be capped at level 30, then against any mob level 30 or below the spirit is more likely to use powerful spells.)

5: Any commands issued to the spirit (Assault, Return, Release) reset the casting timer to full.

6: A Spirit will cast magic throughout the course of a battle on this timer, not just once. So Assault - timer - cast - timer - cast - timer - cast until the target is defeated.

[Grissom]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

Summoner Level: 37
Summoning Magic: 75
Carby Melee Damage: Conistantly 8-10 on EP Gobs in Rolanberry Fields.
Carby Killed Most gobs with 1 cast.

Summoner Level: 37
Summoning Magic: 90
Carby Melee Damage: Conistantly 9-12 on EP Gobs in Rolanberry Fields.
Carby Killed most Gobs with 1 cast and 1/4 HP left.
NOTE Carby seems to hit more acurately at this lvl.

I killed about 40 Gobs each run. It does apear that it helps.
I will be doing some magic testing soon aswell.

Medalink

That seems strange since I go out and solo gobs EP as well out in rolanberry and i'm only lvl36 with 85 summoning skill. I average well over 20-36dmg with carby on EPs cept maybe for those bastards Smithys.
On EP goobs Carby even averages 25-30dmg.

[Tirrock]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

I agree with some of the things the guy in the summoner guide says... but some parts of it seem really silly.

3: For a rough estimate of your timer, divide your Summoning Magic Skill by 3, and subtract that number from 75. This is about how many seconds it will take before a Spirit casts it's spell. (not exact - my skill is 158 and my casting time is 25 seconds)

(From DarkswordDX)

158/3 = 52.6667
75-526667 = 22.3333

Okay... he said it wasn't exact, but 22.3333 is fairly close to 25 I guess...

Now let's do mine.
285/3 = 95 (265 base, 1 level to capping it at 75 I believe, +10 in evoker ring, +10 in AF2 hands)
75-95 = -20

Er... So since negative casting times aren't possible... This means that my spirit chain casts? I have to disagree... Seems to cast every 20-30 seconds or so for me. (I don't have AF2 legs.)

In reply to Merc:
It seemed a bit low to me too, but I let it slide because it's been more than a year since I was that level. Carbuncle is only a powerhouse when something is really weak compared to you, anyway. A monster that a level 75 carbuncle will hit for 90, a fenrir from the same SMN can hit for 140 easily.

[kuu]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

I love all the posts attacking SlizenDize too. How many of you that attacked him have SMN at endgame? I see a DRG and a RDM...and Kuu. Now, Kuu very well could have SMN at level 70+. However, he's proven many times over that his opinion shouldn't be counted, specifically in things about summoners.

All the guy did was say what every endgame summoner does anyway. He was just trying to save you time. If it were such a drastic difference between having summoning magic skill leveled or not, everybody, myself included, would flat out say "yes, it's important, try to keep it capped, it's well worth it". But, like I said, what it does is up for debate, which shows that whatever it does, it's very slight...if anything at all.

Major problem 1:
What does this have to do with 70+? heck what does this have to do with endgame? Heck what do you think is "endgame"?

Major problem 2:
Did you read metalink's findings at all?

The findings are constant enough to point out its usefulness.

So, since you said some things about me, I guess I have a little right on my opinions of your post. You have an odd obsession with lvl70+ only, and discount the rest, and also HNMls.

Besides that you dont instantly get to 75, you don't instantly get to lvl 60, you don't instantly get to lvl 10.

Back to smn skill. Sure, if you're the type that will only heal, stoneskin, and blink. Then, yes smn skill will never be useful. At the same time you will never be good when you need to do different things.

Let's wait for the whole report shall we? So far it's anything less the subtle.

If anything avatar's moving faster, is reason enough to up it.

As I said I have always kept mine capped for my own reasons. Thus I can't test personally. I have read from both sides, and ask. Your opinions is just one of many. Oh and they have "brains" too.

[Tirrock]

Re: Summoning Magic Skill

Major problem 1:
What does this have to do with 70+? heck what does this have to do with endgame? Heck what do you think is "endgame"?

Simple. I can tell you that summoning magic skill doesn't have a major impact, especially at high levels. People are throwing out things like: it makes you "able to hit mob for more than 0 damage" when that really isn't anywhere close to the case at all.

I can say that I know all there is to know about dragoon with my level 4 dragoon... I know the basics of the job, I'll say that much. And I even have a few dragoon friends... But you don't see me going around on the dragoon forums correcting people on things that people that have played the job for a year or longer still debate about.

Also, you've always kept your summoning magic skill capped. I, however, have not. I've gone from 60-70 under cap to 1 level under cap without seeing any signifigant change in damage. Even the high level summoners that say summoning magic skill does have an effect will admit it is very slight.

I don't see why my defintion of endgame matters to you, but here: Being high level. With summoner, there is a massive change at level 70, so I'd draw the limit at 70.

Major problem 2:
Did you read metalink's findings at all?

I did, and I found the numbers to be rather off. At level 37, a summoner could probably melee with a staff on an VT/IT for about that much damage, if their staff skill is good. Carbuncle will outdamage summoners in melee all the time, with the possible exception to 1-10 where you could just eat +attack food and wield a pole and fight two EPs at once with carbuncle.

6-9 on easy prey goblins... That just is not right. Maybe if you said "IT" I'd believe it. (That or "EP elemental".) 9-12 too... That's still way too low. And before you ask, no, I'm not treating it like he's a level 75 where he can hit EPs for 90.

Actually, at level 37 I can easily do my own tests (once the servers come back up, that is). 75WHM/37SMN

I'll ask you this though:
Did you read Grissom's post? (I refered to him as Merc in my last post.) Or were you just ignoring it because it didn't fit in with what you were saying? I mean... If he doesn't agree with you, he must be wrong...right? Just like somebody that's been as this character class for a lot longer, and been at both sides of the fence on summoning magic skill must be wrong! (Hell, even I've agreed with you on some posts.)

The findings are constant enough to point out its usefulness.

Oh... I could throw out my own consistant numbers without proof too. Actually, I do. While I do screenshot many things... uploading them is an entirely different story, thanks to my gimp dial-up connection.

I find it funny that you'll believe one person that says numbers without proof, but not believe another. Think about it objectively though... You have two people saying two different things. You know neither of them well.

First person is less than half the level of the second. The first person says something that disagrees with the second person. I admit, it's possible to say that the first person is completely right and the second person is completely wrong when you're unsure on the subject matter. As "the second person" though, I can say that I do know that summoning magic skill isn't nearly as much as people like you, Kuu, make it out to be.

I'll say it again: If there was a drastic difference, or even a noticable difference, this topic wouldn't have made it past the first 5 posts. It would be a simple "Yes, you really do need to level it, it DOES pay off". Not debate from new players vs old (go ahead and throw elitist/nerd insults out if you feel you need to).

So, since you said some things about me, I guess I have a little right on my opinions of your post. You have an odd obsession with lvl70+ only, and discount the rest, and also HNMls.

I'm certain I'm right, and I have a very hard time believing somebody who is new to summoner that brings up results that go against things I've seen and done with my own eyes.

Call me elitist or patronizing, it won't bother me. Although, if you've seen my gear, specifically on my rarely used WHM, you'd know I'm definately not an elitist...at the very least in gear. I don't even look down at people that wear +summoning magic skill gear.

And if you want to waste your time leveling summoning magic skill for hours upon hours, that's your choice. However, please don't start comparing a summoner with uncapped summoning magic skill to a " warror with rusty daggers". It's not that staggering of a difference. If it was, it would be very easy to tell who had capped summoning magic skill, and who did not. However, since nobody is able to tell except the summoner...we can safely assume that means there's not any noticable damage difference... Which only confirms what I've been saying all along.

Also, I only brought up HNM linkshell type things for the person who was level 75. I picked Kirin because he tends to live for a while (45 minutes or so) and his level never changes. I also used him because he was probably one of the most drastic cases I've seen of the same monster with 0 defensive buffs causing almost a 50% damage difference from non-crit to non-crit. (I used to think the 650s were crits until my first 900 something.) It's possible that a ranger landed an acid bolt... but since I watch kirin the whole time, I'm quite sure I'd see a large red circle swirl around his giant head/shoulders.

You can also see pretty large blood pact damage varations on things like Aura Pots (or any T/VT pot, really). 800 one shot, 1200 another, 2000 another... All with one shot blood pacts.

I only even suggested (and gave examples of endgame for reasons just mentioned) because I didn't have enough information to figure out what happened. Their post was just a tangent, it had nothing to do with the main topic at hand.

Besides that you dont instantly get to 75, you don't instantly get to lvl 60, you don't instantly get to lvl 10.

Exactly.

During all that time you level (and even more time if you do non-exp related things like missions/farming/quests/HNM on that job) you learn things about the job. You can keep on learning things, even after hitting 75 even. Not long ago the Jaiiler of Temperance proved me wrong and I learned that predator claws is slashing damage, not blunt. That was the first time I'd ever heard of it, and it made sense to me. It explained things like why titan does more damage on pots/bones than garuda.

Square-Enix could announce tomorrow that summoning magic skill does, and always has, in fact increased avatar HP/DEF/ATK/etc, and I'd just aknowledge it and move on. I've accepted that it very well may do something, however, I know that it is slight, if anything at all. (Yeah, it's kind of a pain in the ass to argue with somebody who takes such a "middle of the road" stance on something. Would explain why your reply was so short though.)

Back to smn skill. Sure, if you're the type that will only heal, stoneskin, and blink. Then, yes smn skill will never be useful. At the same time you will never be good when you need to do different things.

Oddly enough, I've seen the exact opposite thing happen in almost every case. Pre-magic burst/increased damage on lower level blood pacts, most summoners that hit level 70+ had played summoner because they truely loved it. Almost all of them spent time on it outside of just leveling/seeking party. (And don't get me wrong, some still do.)

For me, I spent most of my time learning offensive abilities while soloing, or messing around with friends. I was a main-healing summoner for all but one party after level 27. I even specifically requested to main heal, since I was a waste of time to get otherwise. They changed things a bit with the avatar magic bursting (although them using their TP on magic was already there before you could use <pettp>) and the increased damage on lower level blood pacts.

I spent time to learn how to play the job. I didn't have many people I could ask for help, as nobody played the job back then. I figured the job out for myself. (Why I take it so seriously when people go against what I believe.)

Now I see how summoner has gotten much easier to level. I figured that's good for the people leveling summoner... and it still is, kind of. The thing I didn't count on was summoners refusing to main heal, even a ninja, and wasting their MP. They don't need to worry about efficency at all, they have a WHM main healing for them...

Some even hit level 70+ and keep their avatar out for TP out of habit, instead of resting inbetween blood pacts. This is especially silly in dynamis, when you see one garuda/leviathan from one person out for 3 or 4 minutes straight, fight after fight... Then watch that summoner rest for 5 minutes to get back 1000-1200MP they just used, while other summoners will keep going, consistantly pumping out blood pacts the whole time.

(Yes, yes... Obsession with endgame. I'll admit I'm just starting to ramble now.)

Let's wait for the whole report shall we? So far it's anything less the subtle.

I've already stated how much I don't believe the numbers in that report, so I don't really need to comment on this.

If anything avatar's moving faster, is reason enough to up it.

Avatar movement speed never changes due to summoning magic skill. I personally started laughing at his post once it got to that. A level 75 carbuncle and a level 1 carbuncle in the jail in san d'oria will move at the same speeds if the summoners take the exact same paths. That area is easy for him to keep up in because it's all straight lines and 90 degree intersections. (I'm talking about the area before the dungeon itself, where there's only a handful of NPCs and no monsters.)

Bring him out to a bumpier place full of obsticles like La Theine (for an easy to reach example that everybody knows). Run around there for a while and he'll lose pace because sometimes he won't run right at you. Sometimes he thinks suddenly turning left or right will get him to you faster. Happens all the time with wyverns and BST pets too.

If we're going to believe random things about summoning magic skill... Let me try:

Summoning Magic skill is important to summoners because the higher it is, the higher the % chance your avatar will critical is also.

This is completely made up...but it -sounds- true! Therefore, it -must- be true!
(Honestly, the most far out thing I could think of was saying that it lets Fenrir run as fast as Fenrir Prime...but somebody already mentioned avatar movement speed...)

[quote]As I said I have always kept mine capped for my own reasons. Thus I can't test personally. I have read from both sides, and ask. Your opinions is just one of many. Oh and they have "brains" too.[quote]

Yes... I suppose I should have worded that as "level 70+ summoners that use their brains and/or listen to logical thought".

You kept your summoning magic skill capped... So that means that you haven't seen first hand what it's like to do damage with low summoning magic skill. I have, though.

I'll say this one more time:
If summoning magic skill made as big of a difference as some people says it does... ("WOW, really... I guess Carby (or other Avatar) being to take more than one hit or being able to hit mob for more than 0 damage just isn't worth it to you? Like everyone Else running around in what they wore in the dunes.") Wouldn't you think that it would be something so blatantly obvious to notice in a party that they'd be booted after a few fights?

You can notice if your WAR decides to switch to scythe at 20 skill in a level 32 altepa party and starts missing every hit, and hitting for 0 when he does hit... You can't notice when your level 75SMN has level 196 summoning magic skill... Or when a level 32 summoner has level 20 summoning magic skill.

[Edit: Nothing in body changed. Just a few notes. Servers are back up now, I'll do my own tests as time permits. Also, and I come off as an asshole saying this as an afterthought, I do apologize to the original poster for basically saying all he said was a lie. However, I still believe that summoning magic skill doesn't do much of anything, so I'm going to do my own tests.]

[Edit #2: Again, nothing above this line changed. Finished tests, but not enough time for me to upload the pictures. Level 37 carbuncle was hitting T weapons (with protect on) for more than the other results saying he was hitting EPs for. Also, he was hitting DC (one EM to 36)/high EP goblins for more than what the other results said too... I'll upload the pictures later, if you want them.]