SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

[Chio]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

That's a flaw amongst some players, not a flaw of the job.

Yeah I'm willing to agree with that. Probably depends on what level-belt it is. Between 1-20 there were times I cringed when I saw and had to use a galka white mage but we made do.

I routinely look specifically for summoners when party dynamics call for it. This is especially true when facing enemies with AoE, SMN are often preferable to the safety of WHM, but I've also gotten into the habit of asking SMNs to go into offense mode in my parties. I'm personally well-versed at keeping people alive with minimal assistance, and I certainly think most mid-level SMN would prefer to be dishing out damage than using Earthen Ward or Aerial Armor, and insofar as I can, I try to cater to that preference whenever possible.

The parties I've been in thus far (and made myself for that matter) haven't been particular on what they want me to do. I party with Japanese most of the time though, don't know if that changes much however. I think as long as I sub whm there's a bit of relief that's felt I suppose. I don't have any levels in Red at the moment, but for a regular leveling party BLM seems to be out of the question.

It's because no one has really said anything other-wise, I'll keep doing what I'm doing. When that 3rd DD shoots off his WS and I skill chain it with one of the summons everyone goes w00t. Sure it's not a SATA viper bite or what have you but hey, thats a little more damage done and a little less healing that has to take place.

If everyone thinks "oh hey its a summoner and there's nothing else available" then perhaps the summoner should play the game differently and change that way of thinking.

[tazirai]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

If everyone thinks "oh hey its a summoner and there's nothing else available" then perhaps the summoner should play the game differently and change that way of thinking.

/clap /cheer /bow ^^

[Archibaldcrane]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Look, honestly in most situations I've found in my 56 levels of summoner...smn is preferable to whm. *gasp* *panic* Look. Whms keep people alive. That is their job. They are able to stick para and slow and dia. Whatever. They have Haste - which IMO is the one thing that can make whm better than smn up to 56. If as main-heal smn, people are not dying in your party, then you are doing the whm's job. Anything else you do, be it stoneskinga, or tail whip or double slap or meteorite to close SCs or MB, is something that a whm -isn't- doing. You are contributing to faster Exp gain with faster kills and less downtime, which should be the goal of every member of the party.

I know that as you level, this is not always true, mainly due to one reason - stona.

Once you start fighting Coeurls and Cocatrices for XP (as you do for a large part of the early-mid 60's and early-70's) Stona is very important - essential even, and makes whm a necessity. When I get to that point I understand that my role in the party will change - perhaps limiting the zones I can xp in. However, up until you hit Coerls at 62ish, I find there are very few situations where whm>smn, and therefore I don't find smn to be "gimped" at all.

They "un-broke" this job a long time ago...catch up and play well, reap the benefits.

[Tempest07]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

If everyone thinks "oh hey its a summoner and there's nothing else available" then perhaps the summoner should play the game differently and change that way of thinking.

welcome to the real world

no matter how good of a summoner you are, no matter how good the summoner job is right now, exp group leaders just dont care for us too much, which is why i usually just make my own pts. i dont have a problem with the smn job. i know what i am suppost to do. its what other people (the people that are inviting us) think that is unnerving.

i think that the main point of the topic is how to make summoner more WANTED as a main job, not neccessarily to improve it. Yes, we can contribute by adding an extra sc, helping heal, negating damage, upping everyone's stats, but people always see another job and bypass the smn. It has nothing to do with the smn's skill. it has to do with what the leader thinks. this seems to be the exact same situation that red mage was in before refresh and dispell were added. they were having an identity crisis, not knowing what they were. And, again, it doesnt matter what we know we are when other people are putting the groups together.

you cant throw out the ideal party set up. That is what ppl look to when forming pts.

[SlizenDize]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

As with all jobs, if one player plays a job in a bad way then everyone in that party will think everyone with that job sucks. The best way for me to get pts at all is to get somewhat a reputation of being a good Summoner because some people prefer Summoners from White Mages even tho they might not be as near as 50% they are still many.

I still think the job itself needs a push tough...
I mean people say summoners are good because they can Stoneskin and Blink and Hastega and Enthudner and Dispel and Stat buff and so on... It's a LIE..

We can give Stoneskin OR Blink OR Hastega OR Enthunder OR Dispel... See my point?
Then all of a sudden it doesn't get so good. Sure we can heal meanwhile but seriously Cure V heal more than Cure III no argue on that one.

I like the idea about making 2 BP times and cut mp cost for avatars (Even tho it means I have to get rid of lots of elemental staffs and it would render Astral Signa rather useless )
I think we all can agree about the reasons why Summoners do Not melee with avatars are 1. Mp slip 2. You cannot rest.
If SE make changes to atleast one of these then we would be able to melee in a much more efficient way. it woulden't add much to dmg maybe 200 each fight but it would certainly add a lot to the job "Summoner".

[lionx]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

As a WHM i partied with a few varying SMNers. It really depends on the person, some people only want to be a Cure-tank and then buff every now and then..which is totally USELESS when i am there partying with them. Its my job as WHM to heal, but even when i sugguest trying out SC or MB they refuse. Lame. However on the other hand there are SMNs that Magic Burst consistantly with Tier II and IV magic, and when fighting Torama in LoO, i was very glad to have one in which when i would run out of MP(too much spammage of Blaster and Chaotic Eye along with PLD tank) the SMN would take over and let me heal to continue the chain as WELL as MBing the entire way. That is a great SMN and i feel that SMN themselves are very versitile, and can fill many roles as long as they are smart and willing to(which is sad because not many do that, they are either cure tank or the MB, never both and not adaptive).

With that said i do have trouble trying to find that niche for SMN. With WHM being best at healing, BLM best at nuking, RDM and BRD good at support/Refresh, SMN really does seem like the oddball one out. Sure SMN have really good buffs, but even then, it really feels that its not as impactful as say BRD buffs or RDM debuffs. I really sugguest that they have seperate BP timers for Enhancing, Attacking, and Healing/Debuff because that will make them much more versitile and desirable. However i still have a problem in which is that..what does a SMN have, that other classes dont have that impact the entire PT so much to say "Omg theres a SMN lets invite him/her!"? And not as the filler role.

Refresh is a possible way of solving things and of course..the most obvious due to the lack of BRDs and the RDM monopoly, however there could be more.

[Chio]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

welcome to the real world

no matter how good of a summoner you are, no matter how good the summoner job is right now, exp group leaders just dont care for us too much, which is why i usually just make my own pts. i dont have a problem with the smn job. i know what i am suppost to do. its what other people (the people that are inviting us) think that is unnerving.

Have you had experience were someone just simply said "just cure" or "do A and B" and nothing more to screw us up. Probably not a party I'd want to be in. I've only had one experience where someone kicked me out for not having SleepGa2 when I was playing as a BM :/

i think that the main point of the topic is how to make summoner more WANTED as a main job, not neccessarily to improve it. Yes, we can contribute by adding an extra sc, helping heal, negating damage, upping everyone's stats, but people always see another job and bypass the smn. It has nothing to do with the smn's skill. it has to do with what the leader thinks. this seems to be the exact same situation that red mage was in before refresh and dispell were added. they were having an identity crisis, not knowing what they were. And, again, it doesnt matter what we know we are when other people are putting the groups together.

you cant throw out the ideal party set up. That is what ppl look to when forming pts.

People don't jump at us like a Nin/War I suppose. But are summoners that "not wanted"? The red mage got a little out of hand, and is probably one of the most powerful classes in the game thanks to refresh, HP>MP, etc... sickening really. I watched a 75Red take out ifrit while i just healed when everyone else died in a firey blaze.

Back to summoners... how about this idea... some where around 55-60 how about a 2mp/3sec regen tick.

Make Carby not only free but get +1 mp back while he's out. XD

[SlizenDize]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Refresh is a possible way of solving things and of course..the most obvious due to the lack of BRDs and the RDM monopoly, however there could be more.

Sorry but whatever they do I seriously hope they never give us refresh ><
Auto-refresh is good but if we get refreshga as a BP then all our other abilities will become utterly meaningless and you might just replace us with a MP fountain.
I can accept the refreshga on one condition.
That it stays for atleast 10mins before wearing. If they would add 2min refreshes to SMN then I would honestly quit this game.

they are either cure tank or the MB, never both and not adaptive

lol I don't want to feel like i'm picking on you or something (Because i'm not) but if you find a summoner who play DD and refuse to heal if they see someone got low hp they should get bitchslapped all the way back to pong. Since I am a Summoner myself I do not PT much with other Summoners but I have noticed that many BLMs do heal even though they are acting as DD and I try to do the same when I am playing DD. As a matter of fact I am so used to playing Healer that sometimes I forget that I was supposed to be the DD lol ^^

Correct me if I'm wrong but from my point of view it seems like you had a bad luck with the Summoners you have met ^^

[lionx]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Refresh is but one possible way, there might be others that i might have not considered but from a mage's point of view, Refresh is pretty useful and a real draw to be invited. I do hope its not a crappy 2minute refresh too x_x that would be lame as hell if they do impliment it. But the problem is, what could there be that makes SMN SO desirable to be invited thats not a filler role? I am having trouble with that =/

About my experiences with SMNers i have had a wide variety i partied with. By no means however that those i partied with describe the entire SMN community because as i said, there ARE amazing SMNers that worked well when i was WHM, BLM, and even WAR. The good ones are amazingly adaptive and pushed their blood pacts farther than the majority of SMNs i met which are very one track minded.

Its like the n00b RDM, they insist on meleeing or insist not on main healing even when they can and should play their roles as flexible as possible. SMN(majoirty of those i met) tend to fall into the same one track mind and that their way of playing SMN is the only way possible. =/ You are correct the majority of my SMN party experiences were them being, less than great.

But by no means am i saying they suck, and just for you the next time i pt with a SMN that doesnt do his or her job well even with some sugguestions, i will slap them for ya. xD

[tazirai]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Do people really think a Summoner is just a Bloodpact per min and healer?
Ive described various things a Summoner can do to aid a PT but seems no one but me and the few Summoners Ive "trained" does them.

Do people just not get it?

[SlizenDize]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Do people really think a Summoner is just a Bloodpact per min and healer?
Ive described various things a Summoner can do to aid a PT but seems no one but me and the few Summoners Ive "trained" does them.

Do people just not get it?

Just a question.
How many of those things you can do between BPs then are based on sub jobs?

[tazirai]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Heal/buff/status ... 1? If you have whm SJ
and about maybe 5-6 others things that you can do. Also even with your sj you can do them.
Reason I say one is you generally heal with whm and buff at the begginning so it doesnt count since you can do that with rdm Sj.
With Status that can be done with an avatar, during combat or after.

/bard if none available can help MP, specially if theres a BLM or two in the PT , Even if theres a WHM in the PT it can help, Ive done this. You can help attackers and mages. It wont hurt a mons very much , strictly for PT member buffs.

/rdm if you are fighting def heavy monsters can remove their buffs with dispel it sticks alot and you can still cure . Leviathan can remove status. also can help if theres a whm or blm in the PT with their MB and whm using his better powers to fully heal/status remove.

/blm very useful in BCNM My Summoner LS uses only BLM SJ when we do BCNM for escapes/warps and aspir and seal+binding. and eve n the odd MB, I have a video of this ^^ if you want to see it .


/whm the overall favorite ,

[Chio]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Just a question.
How many of those things you can do between BPs then are based on sub jobs?

Oh come now. A statement like this applies to every other job out there.

We could fight the enemy, we could heal our own MP, we could stay out of the way, we could go use our summons to get the next mob to fight, we could simply fight the next mob if its not so tough, we could throw out our summons to build up TP for the coming Magic burst (higher TP=more damage).

Based on sub jobs? Sub white and... we heal. Debuff? No those dont stick. Cure ailments? Chances are the Red or White got to them. So yeah... based on our sub... we heal.

Based on my list.... thats one thing we can do based on our sub.

Summoners are -not just- gimped cure tanks.

After this last mission I'm starting to see a Summoner's nitch more and more. BCs, Mob control, last big blast of damage.... you get 3 summoners lined up doing astral flow, and that BC monster is gonna die.

SE is not going to give summoners the ability to do more damage. Because frankly in numbers they destroy things when the time comes. Why are people failing to see this point? There's more to this game than just getting to 75. ESPECIALLY with those CoP missions.

[Jokerboy1]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

what if they let us rest when we had our avatar out or something? ehh?

or is that a bad idea?

Double Post Edited:

/blm very useful in BCNM My Summoner LS uses only BLM SJ when we do BCNM for escapes/warps and aspir and seal+binding. and eve n the odd MB, I have a video of this ^^ if you want to see it ,

i wanna see this video plz ^_^

[Icemage]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

what if they let us rest when we had our avatar out or something? ehh?

or is that a bad idea?

It defeats the purpose of MP slip damage if you could rest to counteract the cost.

---

SMN are quite useful in many circumstances. I found a new use for SMN yesterday in an XP party in Gustav Tunnel at level 59. When we'd pull a BST-type Goblin, the SMN would summon Carbuncle and kill the Goblin's Leech with Meteorite, leaving the rest of the PT able to deal with the main enemy without having it interrupt our XP chain.


Icemage