SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

[Archibaldcrane]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Yeah, I think I'm missing your point. If your point is that SMN doesn't have all that much to do with a whm in the party, well, you're right. SMN+WHM is like PLD+NIN...overlapping of duties that either could perform. If your argument is that SMN is gimped and/or underpowered/or and worthless at 55-60...I...have to think you're doing something wrong with it. I'm confused by the parses - if your party is consistently doing Fragmentation, then why not MB with either Garuda or Ramuh every time? I'm seeing alot of damage coming from other avatars...not sure why. With dual-ninja tanks you couldn't have...any healing to do at all really, so hitting your MBs with the proper avatar should be pretty much the #1 goal...hell, with dual ninja tanks on crabs I can't even see value in Earthen Ward.

[Icemage]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

With a strange party setup like NIN NIN RDM BLM SMN DRK I'd have gone for 2x Distortion bursts. Blade : Chi to Blade : Retsu for Distortion as well as Vorpal Scythe to Double Slap for Distortion, or perhaps alternatively Barracuda Dive to Guillotine for Induration. Or even Blade: Chi > Double Slap for Distortion and Blade: Teki > Guillotine for Induration, though I think that makes for slower skillchain damage since ninjas usually have a hard time keeping up with main DDs on TP.

Considering the pitiful skillchain damage that was being inflicted I can only imagine that they were using Guillotine to Blade : Teki for Fragmentation (ew?).


Icemage

[Tyrien]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

I'm glad to see that your inability to stick to the topic of discussion hasn't changed. Considering you started this thread, that's particularly amusing. And I'm sure the other readers are equally perplexed as to what you were trying to prove with those numbers, other than perhaps your ability to operate a parser.


Icemage

keep trying, but if youd pay attention, or actually read the post, you could see that it has alot to do with the topic. i shouldnt have to spell it out to you. thanks.

id also like to point out that my "inability to stick to the topic" actually lies in you, and can be easily seen in your first, off-topic post.

Double Post Edited:

Yeah, I think I'm missing your point. If your point is that SMN doesn't have all that much to do with a whm in the party, well, you're right. SMN+WHM is like PLD+NIN...overlapping of duties that either could perform. If your argument is that SMN is gimped and/or underpowered/or and worthless at 55-60...I...have to think you're doing something wrong with it. I'm confused by the parses - if your party is consistently doing Fragmentation, then why not MB with either Garuda or Ramuh every time? I'm seeing alot of damage coming from other avatars...not sure why. With dual-ninja tanks you couldn't have...any healing to do at all really, so hitting your MBs with the proper avatar should be pretty much the #1 goal...hell, with dual ninja tanks on crabs I can't even see value in Earthen Ward.

that was a typo, other nin was a WHM

and unlike icemage, you're actually kinda close

[poweryoga]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

what an honor to have another critique by icemage, if only he were right about half the stuff he was talking about :/

If you weren't so thick headed to listen to him, maybe you'd understand how to not be the shame of all summoners.

Almost all of the stuff you want to be improved on for summoners are stupid and would end up overpowering the class dramatically. You don't know how to play the job, and you just want summoners to do on par damage with warriors and rangers, who are the top damage dealers. That's not what the job is for, they're support, not DD except for a few special cases in endgame.

The only change I'd make to the summoner class is group support abilities into one bloodpact, and damage bloodpacts into another. That way you're not a damage dealing machine, but you can still support and skill chain. the 6 second summon timer + avatar doing their thing is enough to offset having 2 kinds of pacts to cast. There is already enough -BP timer on existing equipment that 45 seconds isn't really a long wait. I'm sure you'll find something to do in the mean time....

[Tyrien]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

If you weren't so thick headed to listen to him, maybe you'd understand how to not be the shame of all summoners.

Almost all of the stuff you want to be improved on for summoners are stupid and would end up overpowering the class dramatically. You don't know how to play the job, and you just want summoners to do on par damage with warriors and rangers, who are the top damage dealers. That's not what the job is for, they're support, not DD except for a few special cases in endgame.

The only change I'd make to the summoner class is group support abilities into one bloodpact, and damage bloodpacts into another. That way you're not a damage dealing machine, but you can still support and skill chain. the 6 second summon timer + avatar doing their thing is enough to offset having 2 kinds of pacts to cast. There is already enough -BP timer on existing equipment that 45 seconds isn't really a long wait. I'm sure you'll find something to do in the mean time....

for the love of god, please read the whole thread, or atleast play the game, before posting

[poweryoga]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

for the love of god, please read the whole thread, or atleast play the game, before posting

I have a 73 smn that I'm too lazy to lvl to 75, so drink your cup of STFU please. ^^

I read the whole thread, and came to the conclusion you have no idea how to play the summoner class, so kindly take your own advice, since you have apparently done neither.

Why are you partying with whms before 70 anyways? So you can be an exp leech?

[Tyrien]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

I have a 73 smn that I'm too lazy to lvl to 75, so drink your cup of STFU please. ^^

sorry, your post mislead me

with your last question, i dont think that you have read the whole thing

you're welcomed to try again

and im thickheaded? some of you people want to do nothing but critique me, and call me stupid because of my opinions on smn, when you obviously dont understand anything in the thread.

i would suggest you either stop posting your bs, or discuss:
1. Your ideas on how to improve smn Or
2. Your experiences through the levels,

instead of causing a flame war because you're too ignorant to discuss and flaming is all you can do.

[Kaylik]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

sweet i like it

[Tyrien]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

To try to revive the real topic:
I was thinking yesterday, the typical pt set up is so:

Tank
DD
DD/backup voke/hate maintanence
dd mage
main healer
refresher/support

summoner fits into 3 categories: main healer, dd mage(20-30, then again at 60+[depending on how long the fights are, off course]), and dd if you are 70+

square obviously doesnt want us to be big time dds before 70, therefore we usually heal, and once in a while we get invited to buff and back up heal.

we are not desired in pts before 70. that is the bottom line. the typical player wants a NIN or PLD to tank, a SAM/MNK/THF/DRG/DRK/WAR to DD or control hate, a black mage to deal magic dmg, a rdm or brd (both extremely rare) to refresh and buff, and a white mage to haste, heal, and buff.

Sure we can heal, but thats are sub-job, and usually doesnt involve summoning avatar outside of spring water.

so what is left that square could possible want smn to do?

refresh

SMN is mainly a buffing job, if you consider the main job alone, and not our support job.

We have hastega, ecliptic growl, ecliptic howl, earthen ward, and aerial armor that are the most useful. but these are not as desired as a rdm's or a brd's spells, the 2 other buffing jobs.

again, what are we missing that the other 2 have? refresh

brd, rdms, and smns are rare as it is. there are usually long waits in pts to find a refresher, so why not help everyone out at the same time by giving smn a refreshga bp? it could be maybe Ecliptic Cry [Fenrir}, giving pt members in aoe 2 mp every 2 seconds. it would be hard to get by having it on fenrir, and it could have a minimum level of 50 or 55, when smn invites decline drasticly.

before making smart ass comments, please read and consider the post. thanks.

[Jokerboy1]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

WHOOOOOOO!!! GO TYRIEN!!!

well im not gonna put my 2 cents in because im only a lvl 20 smn. but hmm i like your idea tyrien. yet.. im not high enough lvl to really understand the outcome of it.

but why is everyone in here fighting? tyrien is just posting his opinion u dont need to go at ihs throat because of it.

[tazirai]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

but why is everyone in here fighting? tyrien is just posting his opinion u dont need to go at ihs throat because of it.

People tend to argue over point of contention to 1 up each other , even if it means losing the point of what they were arguing over anyway. Thats how wars start, well that and money, and women, and power, and greed, and..I'll stop now ^^.

Seriously Ive Partied with whitemage as a Summoner and never felt the leeching thing, Because I performed other duties. about the idea of Summoner sucking before 70 I dont agree.
About Summoners never being wanted in a PT I dont agree, that may be so NA side, but the only tiem I ever felt a lack of PT crunch is when fenrir came out and he was the new thing. So i made my own.

ive already stated what a Summoner can do beside and along with healing. But its up to each Summoner to find their own thing.

They can go Icemages way
Tyriens way
Cookie way
their own

I dont have a way.. I just offer unbiased ideas for a job im highly biased for ^^

Now back on topic please ^^ keep the flames low.

[Chio]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

I'll throw in a couple point here, since I've been leveling summoner as of late. For the most part I think I've been opening the eyes of most players given how I've been playing the job.

I first throw the idea of the ideal party away. Lately on Ragnarok there are so many high level people it's hard to find low level parties these days. 1-20 used to suck and now it's 1-30ish thats a pain.

So ideal parties are hard to come by...given that:

There are 3 damage dealers in the front line. Two do the main skill chain and one shoots off their WS at random times.

I join the odd man for another skill chain. It helps keep that BLM doing what he's best at, lots of damage. My main job is BLM and if I had that opportunity to MB left and right I would be extremely happy.

To improve summoner? I think what would make me happy, is to have some little timer that tells me when the blood pact timer runs down to zero. Sure I can put a /wait command in the macro, but i'm shooting off other macros, and that ends up screwing up the /wait command. Just a minor annoyance if anything.

The only other change I'd like to see is, not only skill ups when we throw out a summons, but perhaps a skill up opportunity when we use a BP. <-- Thoughs on this one? (if this has been discussed before my apologies)

I'm only 34 at the moment, and I'm enjoying the current summoner set up. In the parties up until now, the white mage has had less to do because of the extra skill chain + MB. Heck the WM is even casting in for the MB as well.

As for refresh ability of reds and bards, it has not come into play all that much right now. I sometimes leave a summons out to attack and build up TP for the skill chain thats about to come to pump up the damage. I'll throw out a cure while that's happening, and I still have hoards of MP left (go tarus). I have plenty of MP healing time available. I feel as long as my HP is up, I can back up heal in a pinch. Reds and Bards great if you got them.

A refresh-ga, I would speculate, would cost far too much MP, and last for a short time like all the other buffs summons have. Summoner spends 100+MP so everyone else can get back 50or so. Maybe it works out for the summoner who has auto-refresh anyway, who knows.

[Icemage]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

To improve summoner? I think what would make me happy, is to have some little timer that tells me when the blood pact timer runs down to zero. Sure I can put a /wait command in the macro, but i'm shooting off other macros, and that ends up screwing up the /wait command. Just a minor annoyance if anything.

The only other change I'd like to see is, not only skill ups when we throw out a summons, but perhaps a skill up opportunity when we use a BP. <-- Thoughs on this one? (if this has been discussed before my apologies)

Both of these items are excellent suggestions. Doesn't change the fundamentals of the job, but the first resolves some of the ambiguity, and the second addresses the problem of levelling summoning magic (which, behind Fishing and Guard, is probably the third hardest skill to gain points for in all of FFXI).


Icemage

[Tempest07]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Both of these items are excellent suggestions. Doesn't change the fundamentals of the job, but the first resolves some of the ambiguity, and the second addresses the problem of levelling summoning magic (which, behind Fishing and Guard, is probably the third hardest skill to gain points for in all of FFXI).


Icemage

yeah theyre good suggestions, but not enough. Yes smn is a good job, but we're not really wanted. Its more like "Look a smn! Hm....we cant find a <insert job> so i guess we can get one."

[Icemage]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

yeah theyre good suggestions, but not enough. Yes smn is a good job, but we're not really wanted. Its more like "Look a smn! Hm....we cant find a <insert job> so i guess we can get one."

That's a flaw amongst some players, not a flaw of the job.

I routinely look specifically for summoners when party dynamics call for it. This is especially true when facing enemies with AoE, SMN are often preferable to the safety of WHM, but I've also gotten into the habit of asking SMNs to go into offense mode in my parties. I'm personally well-versed at keeping people alive with minimal assistance, and I certainly think most mid-level SMN would prefer to be dishing out damage than using Earthen Ward or Aerial Armor, and insofar as I can, I try to cater to that preference whenever possible.


Icemage