SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

[LadyPeorth]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Problem with unlimited blood pacts is the mana usage. You'd be like BLMs spamming Thundaga III.

I think the main way to make SMN more useful is remove the god forsaken -MP per tick. Bloodpacts already cost a major plethra of MP, we're mostly casting otherwise, the Avatars melee attacks (non-bloodpact) aren't exactly ground breaking, and they give no TP to the monster anyway. This way SMN is a little more like a BST, cept they don't hafta worry too much bout their pet's HP (unless soloing). Sure some people will argue that the TP you build up will make your avatar super deadly, but that's only for 1 magic based attack every minute. At best, it'll make your IV spell magic burst really well.

Anyone else think the -MP for elementals is just totally stupid? The spiritual embodiment of an entire element costs less than a small member of it. It's like saying a foot soldier costs more to take care of than a tank.

[Balodoth]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Interesting idea Shar. My question is whether there would also be a timer for using each avatar. i.e. You use a damaging BP; 1 minute countdown starts on all damaging BP's and 20 seconds on the other groups. After 20 seconds you can do an enhancing BP, but not from the same avatar you used for the first BP, there's a 1 minute timer on that one.

Another quick question: While any group is in cooldown, and you use a different group, would that add 20 seconds to whatever is left? Bring it up to 20 if it's below? Not do anything? Just want to see what would be considered fair in such a proposed change.

[tazirai]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

taz you should show the damage done by 6smn in the BC ^^

Ill edit thhis post after I find the pic , But 6 SUmmoner versus anything = OMG haha.

I think Sharm(hehe) is onto something, But I suggest somehting esle. Each avatar has a BP timer.
Ifrit Double Punch wait 1 min before he can do anything again.
Summon Shiva Double Slap immediately use it then wait 1 min.

Something like that?
or is there problems with it.

[phaze]

Re: BP Timers

But I suggest somehting esle. Each avatar has a BP timer.
Ifrit Double Punch wait 1 min before he can do anything again.
Summon Shiva Double Slap immediately use it then wait 1 min.

Something like that?
or is there problems with it.

You'd prevent an avatar from using separate BPs, while allowing a loophole for different avatars.

This would allow the Summoner to rotate through the lv70 physical BP's with no penalty. Many people see this as imbalanced, if those BPs are unchanged from their current power/mp cost. Even if the power/cost were adjusted, you're still giving Summoners an 'mp-dump' ability that they currently don't have; this may not be desired by the devs.

The easiest change from the current system would be grouping the BP timers based on type, as SharMarali has outlined above. This would probably need some minor rebalancing, most likely in mp costs.

A more involved change would be to give individual timers for all the BPs, which would require much more rebalancing of strengths and costs for the BP abilities.

I still stand by my earlier comments, concerning removing MP-Slip and individual timers. The changes last fall concerning Avatar TP and accuracy were nice toys for Summoners aiming for a DD party spot, but I still look for a SMN last when filling out an xp-party's backline. WHM and RDM are better healers, RDM and BRD are better support, and BLM is better damage.

[Macht]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

You do realize if SE were to reduce or change the BP that all the abilities under the BP will have to be altered as well. I do enjoy reading people saying how each job has their own little niche and stuff and how they have a function. I love reading these while completly ignoring certain jobs, like for example RNG. Barrage is not unique to us, Sidewinder is not unique to us. To boot on top of that we have how our rng. acc. and rng. att. work been changed. The change makes it more difficult to get good damage but the potential is still there.

SMNs do become quite powerful at 70+ then that power just goes even crazier when they start applying merit points to their stuff. Likely how it is now is still SMN without all the plans in place yet, don't worry though when they get them place you'll have the "Old Timers" screaming nerf because the change reduces their damage and all just to make the ones pre 70 feel more like they might be worth something.

Double Post Edited:
Oh, also as far as the MP slip I am sure SE had ment the SMNs to pull out the Avatar and actually melee with them using the BPs as extra damage like a RNG gets with Barrage and his WSs, or a DRK with his Soul Eater, Last Resort, WSs, and spells. Or any other job.

The only thing was I constantly see is a complaint in this is that Avatars don't hit as desired, I still feel this may be just perspective and in comparison to the rest of the Melees an Avatars melee is actually right in place of were it's needed to be or may need little adjustment.

Other then that most of the time I only see an Avatar being used for it's BP. That's like a RNG complaining that his Sidewinder and Barrage isn't executable every 5 sec. or something. You really should review those abilities the Avatars have, they are well beyond what other people can do. WHM can not stoneskin other people nor can they blink other people, RDM can not en-fire another players weapon, or en-thunder, regardless of it's short time span the more members actually striking that additional damage adds up fast.

Then to boot the attacks the Avatars get with BP are quite big damage numbers, if you want to reduce the BP timer then fine but all of their MP costs or how those abilities work will have to change and I do not mean lower MP and stronger abilities.

Also don't forget the SMN is the only one with a hastega, WHM and RDM do not have this.

[Sepukku]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Icemage....lol....I /love/ how you always tell someone they're wrong in such a matter-of-fact way that you seem to be some demi-god preparing to smite the corrected poster in a rather flame-filled death. Your first post in the thread made you seem like a 50 foot tall man and when you appeared the sky turned dark purple and lightning was everywhere and everything caught on fire....god I need sleep.

But Icemage is right, the proposed solutions in the original post would upset the SMN's balance in the endgame with their level 70 Bloodpacts....SMN, MNK, and WAR (WAR is debateable) are endgame jobs that are less desireable for the first 60-70 levels then become very powerful in the end.

[Caspian]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

I dont know that I'd call mnks undesirable in the first 60-70 lvls. If they are, its b/c of the ignorance of other players. I noticed by 40 (hardly pt'd with them before that) that they were doing some big numbers (especially their ws's).
I agree with Macht. I'm not trying to turn this into a rng bitchfest, but we all saw what happens when a job gains huge notariety when it starts making a big difference in the game (especially endgame). The nerfstick cometh.
As a DD I -LOVE- smn's with fenrir for lunar cry (or whatever the one is that raises every stat +10, cant remember the name). The avatars regular dmg is nothing entirely special, but its nothing to scoff at either. The idea of categorizing the BP's is probably the best idea with the fewest unbalancing implications. It seems to give smns the ability to play all the roles they are called on to play at a faster rate. Though, be wary, if SE does decide to change the BP timer, like some have already said, its highly likely that they will change mp cost and effectiveness of those BP's and probably not for the better.

[tazirai]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Okay, Now that Ive read What everyone has to say , including myself hehe. I wish to add, That I never felt "undesirable" in a PT, maybe because its who I PT with primarily. Most o f you know I PT with Japanese 80% of the time. I must say that when You have your avatar out and its hitting for 40-50 Damage then laying out a BP every 50 Seconds for me. Is nothing to Scoff at. Also realise that now that Summoners get TP gain on their Avatars That makes their BP(Specific ones) Evene more powerful and less likely to be resisted.

I do think That maybe the Bloodpact timer should be lowered to perhaps 45 seconds. With -BP timer gear you'd get an average of -14 to 15 off BP timer. So 30 seconds would be Okay.
But as was said there would be a change in BP damage effects.

I for one Like Summoner the way it is now. Most Summoners have no clue how to play Summoner. And most Players think A sumoner without fenrir is gimped, Sadly theres no way to change that. But I try to reach individual Summoners and mentor them.

Theres So much we can do within 1 minute that involves/ doesnt involve our Avatars. Its sick.

From Controlling adds
to being puller/healer
Melee(avatar) MB, Renkei Starting with a Melee not involved in renkei like the paladin.
Taking on adds, Sometimes this means taking one for the PT.

Theres so much that summoner players dont get, it's shameful.
Anyway before I go off on a tangent, take a look again at what you can do with each Avatar and that 1 minute timer, then try to be a little different.

[SlizenDize]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

I once had to tank in Bibiki bay because the PLD was AFK.
Got hate through spinning dive and it worked for as long as it was needed.
Not recommending this as something you could do if you don't find a tank but for one fight it could and will work.

[Tempest07]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

I would like to quote Jei

SMN post 70 is really powerful. But I really don't mind them, they have to go through 70 levels of hell to get there...

Many of you guys seem to miss the fact that there are many levels before lv 70!
Maybe lower the bp timer, and lower the lv70 attack damage?
or the idea of grouping the bps together.

[Archibaldcrane]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

I've partied with Archibaldcrane on his SMN. He's very, very good, despite his lower MP pool as a Galka (yes, I said Galka).
Icemage

Thanks Icemage, I pride myself in my SMN skills.

I would agree that there are levels where smn is not particularly useful, mainly as you approach 50. However, once you get Double Slap, your path is pretty much set for you from there on. Especially if you have a ninja, BE AGGRESSIVE in being involved with the skillchains! Double Slap can deal consistent Distortion-closing damage, better than most jobs besides a sata Viper Bite. And it's basically ready when you need it - especially with a ninja, who is normally otherwise solo-WSing. That's fun til 54, then Meteorite at 55 is a godsend. A free avatar, even without Penance Robe or HQ light staff, bombing IT crabs for 300+ regular or 400+MB with fusion every minute? Put that with a bard and you are never wanting for MP, can main heal and dish 1k damage per fight. Then at 60 you get lvl4 spells stronger than all but a blm's highest -ga or ancient to MB with, and fenrir's final BP at 65.

Yes, with a whm in a party, smn is still kinda superflous til 65 at least....but I haven't seen much in the way of whm+smn parties recently (i'm 55). Be flexible, yes, but be knowledgeable and aggressive to use all your varied abilities to make the party good. You're only a gimpy whm if you allow yourself to be. Have fun!

[Tyrien]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Vinfari- DRK, Evergence-RDM, Smile-BLM, Ditt-NIN, Hellslayer-WHM,Tyrien-SMN

Guess when I hit lv 60


0 - The Robber Crab
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Vinfari 285 39.64 285 0 0 100
Evergence 28 3.89 28 0 0 25
Ditt 61 8.48 61 0 0 75
Smile 345 47.98 0 345 0 0.00
Totals 719 100 374 345 0 66.67

1 - The Goblin Mercenary
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Hellslayer 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Ditt 899 27.4 502 110 275 75.86
Vinfari 1504 45.84 625 0 871 80
Smile 340 10.36 0 340 0 0.00
Shiva 497 15.15 282 0 215 83.33
SC: Fragmentation 41 1.25 0 0 41 0.00
Tyrien 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Evergence 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Totals 3281 100 1409 450 1402 78.85

2 - The Goblin Mercenary
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Ditt 542 23.44 492 24 26 61.22
Vinfari 1071 46.32 673 16 382 64.71
Smile 183 7.92 0 183 0 0.00
Evergence 6 0.26 0 6 0 0.00
Garuda 495 21.41 88 0 407 100
SC: Fragmentation 15 0.65 0 0 15 0.00
Hellslayer 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Tyrien 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Totals 2312 100 1253 229 830 64.79

3 - The Goblin Leech
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Ditt 366 38.53 359 0 0 100
Vinfari 495 52.11 495 0 0 100
Evergence 89 9.37 82 0 0 100
Totals 950 100 936 0 0 100

4 - The Goblin Shepherd
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Ditt 658 18.44 514 46 94 70
Evergence 93 2.61 69 7 0 20.83
Smile 76 2.13 0 76 0 0
Shiva 450 12.61 58 0 392 60
Vinfari 1754 49.15 600 0 1154 100
Hellslayer 6 0.17 0 6 0 0.00
Titan 504 14.12 86 0 418 100
Tyrien 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
SC: Fragmentation 28 0.78 0 0 28 0.00
Totals 3569 100 1327 135 2086 58.33

5 - The Goblin Leech
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Hellslayer 0 0 0 0 0 0
Vinfari 877 100 877 0 0 100
Ditt 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Evergence 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Totals 877 100 877 0 0 85.71

6 - The Goblin Shepherd
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Tyrien 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Hellslayer 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Ditt 479 15.57 472 0 0 66.67
Evergence 314 10.2 251 0 0 52.94
Smile 1049 34.09 0 1049 0 0.00
Vinfari 1235 40.14 590 0 645 100
Totals 3077 100 1313 1049 645 65.31

7 - The Robber Crab
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Ditt 557 15.65 439 104 14 60.53
Evergence 465 13.06 218 52 121 47.83
Vinfari 1033 29.02 792 0 241 75
Ramuh 477 13.4 70 0 407 57.14
Smile 552 15.51 17 535 0 45.45
Shiva 472 13.26 65 0 407 66.67
SC: Fragmentation 4 0.11 0 0 4 0.00
Totals 3560 100 1601 691 1194 59.05

8 - The Robber Crab
Player Total DMG % Melee Spell Skill M Hit %
Hellslayer 2 0.05 0 2 0 0.00
Ditt 732 19.08 709 0 0 67.92
Ramuh 1616 42.12 290 0 1326 78.95
Evergence 164 4.27 117 7 0 37.04
Smile 1003 26.14 5 984 0 14.29
Vinfari 311 8.11 311 0 0 77.78
Tyrien 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
The Robber Crab 9 0.23 0 0 0 0.00
Totals 3837 100 1432 993 1326 60

[Icemage]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

I'm failing to see the point. Ok, so I'm guessing that you burned Astral Flow and opened up some Judgment Bolts somewhere around the last battle. This pertains to your original topic of SMNs needing "fixing", let alone in the manner you suggested, in what way?

If you hit level 60 before the last battle, then the numbers sure don't show it, since you ought to have been able to do much better than 400-odd damage on a IV magic burst. More to the point, the only time you had a skillchain that matched your avatar for magic bursting would be in battle 2, Garuda on Fragmentation, and in battle 7. Ramuh on Fragmentation.


Icemage

[Tyrien]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

I'm failing to see the point. Ok, so I'm guessing that you burned Astral Flow and opened up some Judgment Bolts somewhere around the last battle. This pertains to your original topic of SMNs needing "fixing", let alone in the manner you suggested, in what way?

If you hit level 60 before the last battle, then the numbers sure don't show it, since you ought to have been able to do much better than 400-odd damage on a IV magic burst. More to the point, the only time you had a skillchain that matched your avatar for magic bursting would be in battle 2, Garuda on Fragmentation, and in battle 7. Ramuh on Fragmentation.


Icemage

what an honor to have another critique by icemage, if only he were right about half the stuff he was talking about :/

[Icemage]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

what an honor to have another critique by icemage, if only he were right about half the stuff he was talking about :/

I'm glad to see that your inability to stick to the topic of discussion hasn't changed. Considering you started this thread, that's particularly amusing. And I'm sure the other readers are equally perplexed as to what you were trying to prove with those numbers, other than perhaps your ability to operate a parser.


Icemage