SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

[Tyrien]

I don't feel like bumping any outdated topics, so-----

I was leveling in Boyahda tree yesterday with the MNK,NIN,RNG,WHM,BLM, and me, SMN set up. We were all 51-52 chaining spiders for about 160-230 each. The PT originally had a RDM, but he went AFK, and my other PT had just broke, and they invited me since I was already there, picking me over the 2 RDMs and BLMs that were looking. So yeah, I felt pretty good.

Well, we were doing pretty well.

I did not have to heal, though, because we had a NIN tanking and a RNG sub-tanking, but this is were things seemed to be bad. Because I didn't have to heal, none of my cures were needed. Because no one was taking that much dmg anyway,
I didn't bother too earthen ward or aerial armor. And because the moon was only 25%, Fenrir's debuffs, wouldnt stick, and I decided to just be a DD.

So I would usually summon fenrir, shiva, or ramuh to deal damage, usually doing about 600-800 a fight, under half the damage of the RNG and MNK, sometimes including the 2 BPs on my ~50 sec timer.

This is were i realized what I am. I am a white mage that is allowed to be a summoner every 1 minute. I was pretty much useless that whole pt, with my limitation being that damn 1 minute recast timer.

I would like to propose a petition to Square to A) OR B)

A) Lower the Blood Pact Timer from 1 Minute to Thirty Seconds
(Self Explanatory)

B) Eliminate the All-Avatar 1 Minute Timer, and make each individual avatar's set of Blood Pacts 1 Minute. ( Say I use fenrir's ecliptic growl, i cant use anymore of Fenrir's BPs for 1 Minute, making me have to use another Avatar for another Blood pact. This makes sure that I cannot tank with my avatars, like Square seems to afraid for us to do that they GIMP us.)

*I do not care if these have been proposed already in a topic made last year, It is timer to stop talking and discussing it and try and get Square to implement us. Square has a good track record of listening to the players, but sometimes they can screw up. Hopefully they will ready this topic, as I am going to email it to the Questions/Comments section.*

We dont need anymore avatars until the job itself is enhanced

And this does not only apply to my particular PT set up. That PT just made me realize just how useless SMN CAN be. I know that the Naruto, Allakhazam going, lv30 warriors dont care and may always see us as WHMs, but SMN can be so much more, even now, but Square seems to be too afraid of making SMNs good to make them good.

[RandomKG3]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

I think the problem therein is not how to let us do more damage, but rather how to give us a unique role in the party. If you take each job and boil them down to their essential parts, remove their subjob, and take a look at just the pure job itself, you'll find that many jobs still play a specific role within the party structure, their subjob merely enhances their ability to do their job effectively. But that is where summoners come upon a speed bump.

Summoners can only act roughly once every 60 seconds (more or less depending on equipment). We can do all kinds of things, not just deal damage, and our abilities overlap at least two or three different jobs, the difference being however, that we can only do anything besides let our avatar melee once per minute. This basically automatically slots us into a support role. We ourselves often can't directly do anything useful besides tell our avatar to BP once a minute.

The problem comes down to the fact that we don't have what I call a "must have ability". If you look at other job classes, each has a certain ability that no one else can do that everyone wants. For Redmages, there's Refresh and Convert, for bards it's their buff/debuff songs and mage ballads, white mages cure, black mages nuke, etc. etc. Summoners, however, can do a little of everything, but the BP timer prohibits them from doing any of them better than the other jobs whose primary function it is to do those tasks we can also do. Without the white mage sub, we're basically a slot filler. "We've got a spot left. Um, what do we fill it with?" "How about the summoner?"

Make no mistake that SE will *never* let us do something better than another job class whose primary function is to do that task. For example, they will never allow us to nuke better than a black mage, or cure better than a white mage. The solution here, I think is to find a niche for yourself that you're happy with. Find some function within the party structure that makes you happy and feel useful.

For me personally, I often take the role of primary healer. With a white mage subjob, I find that it gives me something to do the other 50 or so seconds that I'm not doing a BP ability. Note that it doesn't prevent me from doing my normal summoner type things. You have more than enough mp to main heal, buff, and Magic Burst skillchains, or whatever you want to do to the mob. You just have to use your mp wisely. I think that's the difference with us. We can't nuke as well as a blm or heal as well as a whm, but we fill a kind of inbetween slot. For example, a normal whitemage could never burst an SC for even a third the damage I can, and a blackmage could never be main healer as well as I could. But by the same token, don't expect to out-nuke a blackmage or out-heal a whitemage.

[Icemage]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Not using Earthen Ward for a ninja tanking spiders is criminal and shows you do not understand your job well enough to discuss methods by which to improve it.

Not being level 70+ with access to all your job's abilities also shows that you do not understand the radical changes in the game balance which would result in a change to the base blood pact timer.

I would recommend that you at least reach level 70 and explore the capabilities and drawbacks of your chosen job before you talk about band-aid fixes which might address one specific level range, but cause major upheaval in the game in its other elements.


Icemage

[grunion]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

when i leveled SMN i figured i was just a WHM with blinkga and stoneskinga, at least til 60 when i can magic burst. i did my job and leveled it, but it wasn't fun

however archibaldcrane is a friend of mine and he is leveling SMN, and because his first jobs were melee he knows a lot of WS stuff that i never bothered to learn. so he is constantly opening/closing skillchains and doing more damage than i ever could.

smn is a very complex job and you can have a lot of different play styles and still be a good smn

as far as your original post

I was pretty much useless that whole pt

well how do you think a WHM would feel? you could do everything the WHM could do, plus you have autorefresh and extra buffs plus BPs and melee damage. so if they invited a WHM, wouldnt he be even more "worthless"?

[Icemage]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

WHM could Erase, which is handy against spiders (particularly for ninjas, who are vulnerable to Sickle Slash).

I've partied with Archibaldcrane on his SMN. He's very, very good, despite his lower MP pool as a Galka (yes, I said Galka).


Icemage

[Kamui]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Myself being a 57SMN, I've never really thought of my job as "useless." With my main being a 60RDM, the jobs have alot in common, actually. I think both fit somewhere in the "support job," not just having one task to fill, but many. In every PT it's different, so I cast alot of different things with my avatars to see what works best for that PT, and while BP cools off I normally just let my avatar help beat up the mob a little.
I'm not sure why so many people think a summoner still fills the role of WHM after Lv40. The fact all SMN go in as /WHM is more for a convenience than a must.
I guess just in my groups I've never even had an opportunity to really think of what I was doing there... I just did whatever I felt was best. But letting people slip into your mind you're just a flashy healer is so wrong... -.-
Besides... What WHM can do this?

[Tyrien]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

well i think that a few of you could use this: http://www.rhlschool.com/reading.htm

i think that you have no earthly clue what youre talking about, icemage. there are 69 lvs other than 70-75, so smn becoming a needed job at 70 doesnt matter to a majority of the smn population at their current state. and what exactly is the point of earthen ward when i said that no one was taking much dmg anyway?

i think that some ppl need to wake up. yeah, smn is a very good job with potential, and it is my favorite job, but the 1 minute timer kills us. it doesnt matter what a Summoner thinks their job is capable of when its time to lfg, what matters is what the pt leaders think. they see that there's always a job that can do something better than us.

at its core, smn is a buffing job. sc's are usually reserved for the melees, our mb dmg is mediocre, so we're best off buffing and debuffing. what 2 jobs instantly come to mind when you hear buffing and debuffing? Brd and Rdm, 2 of the rarest jobs in the game. The 2 most wanted jobs in the game, with which smn basicly has to compete with for spots.

now about the pt. no duh it was just a bad experience, but no other job wouldve felt like i did. WE HAD A WHM. READ THE WHOLE POST PLEASE. And no, i cannot do anything a whm can. a whitemage can enfeeble the mob, use more powerful magic buffs (in terms of protect and shell, use their blm sub spells, ect. with smn i can cure, use weaker magic buffs, and maybe 1 or 2 avatar bps, all in 1 fight

and icemage, fyi, i was already a lv43 smn on import when i saw you leveling your first job back in beta, so your elitism isnt really needed.

[Icemage]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Any SMN who doesn't realize that Sickle Slash in Boyahda Tree can and will 1-shot any ninja when their shadows are down is still a newbie. THAT is why you use Earthen Ward, and THAT is why I say you don't understand your job, no matter how long you may have been playing. Not only that, the fact that you've read my comments in this thread and STILL not realized this fact tells me that you don't care enough to study your job and learn how to best make use of the abilities available.

Go on, ask the other SMNs here what they do in such parties. I guarantee they will say the same.

I've taken *4 jobs* through that zone. I've partied with SMN at every level, and I have seen what they can do, especially with the new changes. Good SMN never lack for something to do, be it contributing to damage, or just helping make sure people don't die. The recent updates made lower level BPs like Double Slap do substantial damage, and they can skillchain too. In addition, avatar level II and level IV magic bursts run very close to what a BLM can manage with similar spells. They cost more, it's true, but then, you don't pay the enmity price for it either (and in some cases, when you first get access to tier II and tier IV magic, SMN MB damage is actually higher than BLM MB damage).

SMN take a complete and total about-face at level 65+ (if they have Fenrir) or 70 (if they don't) with the non-skillchaining offensive BPs. Halving the BP timer would turn them into damage machines, capable of dishing out 2000+ damage per minute, with virtually 0 enmity, and upset the already delicate end-game balance. Until you've seen party full of SMN drill a HNM, you have no idea what decreasing the blood pact timer will do.


Icemage

[sudo]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

I concur with the end game statement. Smn are quite powerful vs HNM's and such with their lv 70 abilities.

In the last seryiu fight (spelling) the smn was consistantly doing ~700- 900 damage per minute.

In comparison, the blm cast some awesome -ga spells for 800 damage but often had resists that made it go down to pitiful 50-100 damage.

The melees were not even worth comparing against. Mnk was subbed in once every 5-10 min or so and do a 1000 damage chi blast.

Smn are easily #2 or #1 in terms of damage over time already. Add that in with not getting agro and dying or have to log out to reset hate, and you can see vs end game, smn is already quite powerful.

[grunion]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

actually we had someone in LS parse our last byakko fight
#1 and #2 were RNG
#3 was smn
everyone else had about 1/2 the damage SMN had, or less. one BLM had every spell resisted (about 50-80 damage each), 400 total damage.

and the RNG have to worry about getting hate, smn dont.

[Omniblast]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Are you not taking into account of -blood pact timer items? sure it only cuts down 15 seconds at most, and if your not doing something then your doing something wrong. Did you participate in any magic bursts? You got that timing down right? Did you cure all their statuses? I'm sure someone had poison on them when they were fighting spiders. At level 55 I was shooting meteorites at spiders every 55 secs and doing 300 damage the majority of the time (fluke 100 damages here and there). Let's not complain to SE about Summoners or else we might end up like Rangers or Dragoons.

Hey you know what the saying is, "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

[Kiyone]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

The one thing to consider is that we aren't blm and we aren't whm. There is no reason we should be doing more damage that we do with level 2/4 spells because we aren't blm. There is no reason we should be able to cure 700 hp at once because we aren't whm.

Party leaders should know what they are inviting when they get a summoner, because it's not a whm. We can be healers, but there are things they cannot expect of us, and there are things they should expect of us. What we do varies from party to party, there isn't one set pattern on how to exp.

On the note about bloodpacts, there are already several items that reduce bloodpact recast, some already available at level 50, which is roughly when you have enough abilities to make it worthwhile, though many of them are throw-away abilities. Battles however, rarely last long enough for two bloodpacts, and it costs a considerable amount of mp to bloodpact so often.

Besides that, the summoner of two years ago is supremely different from the summoner of today. When I leveled summoner, there was no such thing as being able to magic burst or skillchain with bloodpacts, the attack bloodpacts pre level 70 were dismal and Fenrir was still just a legend. The way we leveled was so rigid, it was just about being a small time healer with benefits of blink and stoneskin. If you were particularly adventureous, you'd do tail whip for a chance to gravity, and even then the accuracy was not often worth it. Getting party invites was mostly people wanting to oogle your avatars because no one had them back then.

I won't pull the old-timer card, but summoner has come a long way from when I leveled, and apparently when Tyrien first leveled anyways. I would consider leveling smn now a much broader experience than the one I got.

[SharMarali]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Everyone always talks about the problems with the 1 minute blood pact timer. I agree that it's a troublesome system; however, without it, SMN would become overpowered. If I could summon levi, use spinning dive, run back a safe distance, summon garuda, and immediately use predator claw, and keep repeating this for all 6 of the lvl 70 blood pacts (or until I ran out of MP, whichever came first ^^) I'd be insanely powerful as compared to other jobs. We've been given the ability to deal damage without taking hate as well as some powerful buffs and debuffs.

That said, I reiterate that I agree that the blood pact timer is a troublesome system which can cause us to have problems doing much in a party, depending upon the party setup. I've been in situations where I've been asked to keep haste on the NIN, which means that I can do very little else in terms of blood pacts and find myself getting bored to tears just using hastega over and over. I've been in situations where I've had another main healer in the PT and had nothing to do in between blood pacts, and I've been in other situations here and there that have shown serious flaws in the 1 minute blood pact timer system.

I think that if SE was to alter the BP timer system, this would be the best method of alteration:

Group all blood pacts into categories. Damaging, enhancing, enfeebling, healing. Run each of the categories on a one minute timer, but allow them to operate separately from each other. Add in an overall 20 second blood pact timer. In this way, I can summon Titan and use earthen ward, wait 20 seconds, then summon Fenrir and use lunar cry, wait 20 seconds then summon Garuda and use predator claw, wait 20 seconds, then summon Leviathan and use spring water.

I think what SE is trying to prevent is us having the ability to deal out tons of damage OR keep up 6 buffs at the same time. By separating out blood pacts into categories, they could avoid this and we could still feel like summoners rather than white mages who have the ability to do something neat every minute or so.

It's not ever going to happen. But I think it's a better hypothetical solution than lowering the overall blood pact timer to 30 seconds or removing the overall blood pact timer and creating separate timers for each avatar.

[tazirai]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

Group all blood pacts into categories. Damaging, enhancing, enfeebling, healing. Run each of the categories on a one minute timer, but allow them to operate separately from each other. Add in an overall 20 second blood pact timer. In this way, I can summon Titan and use earthen ward, wait 20 seconds, then summon Fenrir and use lunar cry, wait 20 seconds then summon Garuda and use predator claw, wait 20 seconds, then summon Leviathan and use spring water.

I think what SE is trying to prevent is us having the ability to deal out tons of damage OR keep up 6 buffs at the same time. By separating out blood pacts into categories, they could avoid this and we could still feel like summoners rather than white mages who have the ability to do something neat every minute or so.

It's not ever going to happen. But I think it's a better hypothetical solution than lowering the overall blood pact timer to 30 seconds or removing the overall blood pact timer and creating separate timers for each avatar.

I agree that BP timer should be lowered to adegree. But remember we are not our BP timers only. We can do a lot more.

As far as what Sharmaralis saying. Can you imagine being able to do unlimited BP's? Check out this Pic from my Summoner LS before a fight.

[Jei]

Re: SMN-Currently How to Fix It+Story

taz you should show the damage done by 6smn in the BC ^^